Trying to stay in Piecing

[sabusabu]

You had mentioned in an earlier post that I had better start opening up before he gives up, so, in this particular example, would you have suggested I not say anything about what that time was for me? (sincere question, honest)

Ayup, that would have been my 2 cents. You know the old adage: If you can't say nuthin' good, don't say nuthin' at all But really, I'm not being entirely facetious on that. Does it really matter *how* he ended up getting sober? For most people (especially any 12-stepper or rehabber), it only matters that he *did* -- and is staying that way. *That's* the most important thing. And it would be helpful if you realized that and embraced it instead of finding criticism in something inherently good. Bad relationships have a better chance of becoming good ones if only everybody would just start draining their cesspools of being so damn mad forever at the other person. And really, that's one of the difficulties I've been facing in my own marriage in counseling.

I guess we're on 2 somewhat different pages concerning what constitutes "opening up." It's not about being the relationship historian and dragging out those horses of resentment so you can beat them all over again (at least when you're not in the MC's office, anyway; you know how we tend to go off when we're left unattended ) When you do that, it's easy to get defensive and resentful all over again, then the other person gets defensive and resentful and so it goes on and on and before you know it, nobody's talking about *anything* anymore other than an occasional "well, screw you and the horse you rode in on."

Opening up isn't about being right or who was *more* right right now or umpteen years ago. Doesn't matter. It's about what's the right thing to do *right now* ... and how to start getting there *together.* United we stand, divided we fall and all that.

Sabu

[leslie]

I see your point, it is kind of like a time and a place thing, although I still think that what I told him helped him to understand part of my withdrawal from the relationship. I was proud of his sobriety, but you know as soon as he was no longer forced into it, he was right back on the weed. Anyway, sabu,I really do appreciate your input, I can see how that was maybe not the most productive thing to say.

But, after today, I don't even know if it is worth it anymore. I have been a little "no snooping" angel, very hard, but the phone bill came today and what has referred to as a few text messages and two phone calls in the past three weeks is actually about 150 from her and 130 to her. So yeah, the little devil in me came alive, I checked the email, (I know, you get what you ask for, I am ready for my lashings) and she sent him phone pix that I would not tell my mother about. While I know the whole laundry list of why I shouldn't have looked, it was right there, I had been so so so good, and although I felt better not knowing, I do knwo and I am of course hurt and angry and trrying to focus so I don't throw thow his a** out.

Last nite he had a very intense C session, and come home really wrung out, we talked for hours, I listened and validated and didn't bring up ME at all. Mostly we talked about his dad dying when my H was 18, then his stepdad, who he loved, died when H was 25. Yes, this has completely messed with his head and a lot this coming out in C. I felt really bad for him, we cried a lot together.

Then (this is venting, so please forgive me) he said he is so thankful he has me to talk to, and that I am the only one he knows who will listen and is truly there for him, and he knows that will never go away, and that we will always be there like that for each other. That totally pissed me off! Does he really htink that I will be there for him if this falls through? I had to tell him that regardless of my love for him, if we divorce, for my own sake I could not and would not do that for him, it wouldn't be healthy for me. He doesn't get to keep one of the most cherished things about our R and leave the rest behind.

I know that we all have to decide, while we are on this path of trying to rebuild our marriage, what our limits are and when enough is enough. I always think I am done, and then I cave in to his double-talk, and turn the other cheek, and part of me wants to keep doing that, living in denial, but I know that I can't. And, while I also know that he is having a young MLC, his therapist agrees, I don't see how I can continue to to fight for him, or wait for him, to come out of it. It is wearing me down, I am very sad and I don't even know what to say.

Right now I need to find something for me and the kids to do tonite, I don't want to be here when he gets home.

[leslie]

I don't know why posting things on this BB help more than journaling in a notebook, but it does so....?

So H came home last night after work, said he feels like he wants to talk to me but has nothing to say. I just said okay then and walked away. He knew I was really upset, I know he was too, saw him crying in the bedroom. I went to lay down, he was making his couch bed, and I just lost it, started balling, all of the pent up emotions just came pouring out. Guess what he did? Had a little text session with OW. Doesn't that just define it, everything?

This a.m. we had a full blown rant. He screamed at me and yelled and said a lot of really crappy things. I know this is his guilt and fear talking, I know that. He said that he hasn't made a choice yet, he still doesn't know what he wants as far as me or OW, but he does know that he is in love with her and that whole ILYBNILWY speech. For me, I just decided I really don't think I can do this anymore. His relationship with her, even though it is "just text messages" is too much. It's the content of the messages that drives me nuts.

So, I just told him that I love him, and want nothing more than to pursue love and happiness with him, but that i feel like he his taking advantage of me and those feelings, and I can't take it anymore. I asked him to leave.

And now he is scared. He said that he would like it if I stuck by him while he is going through his depression and facing his issues in therapy, but how can I do that if he is not committed to working on our marriage. How can I give him the emotional support he wants from me when he is saying he has no guarantee of the outcome. He hasn't even said he wants the outcome to be our happiness, his goal, and rightly so, is to heal himself. I want him to be happy and whole and resolve his issues with himself and the world. But, I am not willing, or even capable, of sitting here loving him and hoping things will work out when he is actively pursuing another relationship, or at least keeping that fantasy alive.

I don't even know how I feel. Maybe my wanting things to be one way is just fear of not having him in my life anymore. We got together SO young, we were both running from messed up family situations, and just jumped right in to a relationship. He said this morning we should have broken up years ago, and he is probably right, in fact I know if we had not had kids we would not be together now. We were drifting apart before our first son was born. I know I was unhappy with our R then, so was he.

Anyway, yes this is a long rant, I needed to ramble it out. He wants to talk more tonite, I don't see what the point is. I really need to just stick to my decision on this and let him experience me moving on completely, and not let his words convince me to let him stick around.

This will break my kids hearts. They have had a major attitude adjustment since H and I have been living together again. But that doesn't change the fact that I need to take care of myself first, and remove myself from this horridly painful situation.
Crap.

[sabusabu]

You won't get any disagreement out of me on anything you vented in your last 2 posts because, well, you're totally right on everything. And really, you're totally right to feel that way. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I'm all for DBing and what-if'ing and all the other stuff that goes with it, but y'know, it doesn't extend to being a doormat. Or having your heart being treated like a doormat, either. Unlike others on these forums here, I'm personally all for snooping because a) whoever first said ignorance is bliss was a complete moron, and b) our cheating spouses are hopeless liars to begin with, and often, snooping is pretty much the only way for *some* sort of honesty to surface and know where the relationship stands. And where *we,* the ones who got the major screw job, stand. Doesn't do the emotions much good to find out something *is* going on, but where and when does all the lying stop? And we have a TOTAL right for all the lying to stop. Like someone once said on some TV show recently, "First I trust. Then I verify."

For any reconciliation to succeed, ALL contact has to be broken off with OWs and OMs. Period. There's no such thing as "only" texting. Or "we're only friends." That's bull, and a lie, and they know it. Spouses who say, "I really don't know who/what I want" are also full of bull. They *know* who/what they want. They just don't have the cajones to say it to our faces. So they'll make up all sorts of other reasons, or just do little things to make us even more unhappy until, well, *we* say it's time to call it a day. And then guess what? *We* become the bad guys, the ones who quit on *them*.

Yeah, it IS all crap. Everyone just has their own threshold for it. Should you have decided already it's time to call it a day, so be it; may your heart stay safe and may the good spirits be with you on where you go next.

sabu

[sabusabu]

Anyway, yes this is a long rant, I needed to ramble it out. He wants to talk more tonite, I don't see what the point is. I really need to just stick to my decision on this and let him experience me moving on completely, and not let his words convince me to let him stick around.

I've not felt from your posts that he really *has* a point, either. (But then again, there's three sides to every story: Her side, his side, and the truth.) But I'll take you at your words and say if everything's all been true, then he *does* need to be cut loose and you not look back. If I recall, he made a promise by moving back to participate in trying to salvage your relationship. And you've discovered that he hasn't been living up to his promise.

But you've got to know that if you decide to not look back, you need to stick to it no matter what because, well, there are going to be some pretty lonely occasions here and there. If you can't stick to it, then you have some unfinished business to attend do with him.

Party on, Garth.

sabu

[BeingMe]

Oh boy! I know how you feel! I've had those kinds of reactions. Hoo boy, and how!!!!! Look, it seems like your H is a cake eater. He wants you to hang around and give him emotional support, while he figures things out. Rather selfish, but then we know they are not themselves. To ask your LBS to be the support while having an A! Just boggles the mind. I know that I could never tolerate my H talking to OW in my house. I told my H the same thing. It's a matter of respect to me and my children. Anyway, I don't know what advice I can give you - just know that I feel for your sitch - been there, done that, and know what you are going through.

Only you can know when it is over for you, when you have reached toxic overload. You are right when you say you need to take care of yourself. Your children will be happier if you are happy.

((((((((((An e-hug for ya!!!)))))))))))

[leslie]

Thanks to both of you, your posts are really validating. Even now, I sit here and want to waffle on my decision, but I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT! I think he expects me to.

Sabu, you commented that it doesn't seem that my H has a point, then BeingMe wrote what his point is: he's a cake eater. He wants to make sure that he has someone waiting when he figures his stuff out.

H came home for his lunch, why? He didn't eat. He had his job review today and I guess got an email from his brother that really touched him and wanted to know if I wanted to read it. I told him that I was glad he finally got his evaluation, knew he'd been stressing on it, and really glad he and his brother are trying to mend some fences, but that part of my decision is to not let myself get wrapped up in his life. Of course he got pissed and tried to tell me anyway, I just kinda walked away.

Then he wants to "talk," but of course has nothing new to say, that's really hard to cuz I WANT to talk, for foolish hope he'll suddenly start professing his undying love for me and swear off all contact with OW and try to work on things Anyway, he told me that "if" he moves out he won't be moving to be with OW and won't ask her to move here, doesn't think she would (I don't buy it), and still hopes that maybe when he gets his head straight that he'll realize he wants to stay married!! So, if he has these hopes, and really truly does not see a long-term future with OW, why leave, and put the kids through this crap AGAIN? Because having OW tell him how hot he is gets his rocks off and he's not willing to let that go.

He still has a lot of anger at me, justifiably, for my withdrawal from our R in the years leading up to his affair. I was depressed, severely, and had major self-esteem issues. I know that now and and feel absolutely horrid and sorry that it took him leaving for me to get my act together. He's still too angry about that, and maybe will not ever forgive me, I guess I really can't blame him.

So, here we are again. He's got at least another three weeks in the house with me. I am going to have to find lots of things to do in the evenings, it will be hard to share space and not get friendly. Hopefully, fingers crossed, I will hear from some of the jobs I've applied for so I can get out of the house to earn money instead of spend it!!

[BeingMe]

Remember this, if nothing else, Leslie. Nothing you did caused this A. It is not your fault. Don't you tell yourself this, or let him insinuate it. It is your H's bad choice to have the A, and he betrayed not only you, but the children too.

Did your H try and connect with you during this time of being withdrawn? Did he work on the M, and attempt to get through to you? And, if he wasn't happy, why didn't he just leave? Because, they don't leave unless there is someone to go to. That tells me that he couldn't have been that unhappy in the M. I was also withdrawn the last couple of years before the cr*p hit the fan in my sitch, and my H tried to blame me, saying I was withdrawn, so he became detached. Yet, I don't remember him ever coming to me, and communicating this to me. I knew there was some distance, and I was trying to work on myself, but we still had fun, going out with friends, going on dates, doing stuff with the kids. But, if anytime there was something negative, then in his mind, that was me all the time. No, I know what badness I contributed to the M, but I never deserved to be betrayed, and neither did you.

Okay, I will now take a breath! It is so good to vent sometimes on this bb.

[leslie]

Thank you AGAIN, BeingMe, and for the e-hug too...needed that!

I don't blame myself for the affair, I know that was his decision, however I do take a good chunk of the responsibility for the fallout that led to it. My H did try to communicate to me that he felt unloved, that I didn't attend to him enough. I always took it as, "you don't initiate ML enough," and still to this moment that is what I recall him telling me. On the other hand, he has always been the child in our R, never a full partner in the boring responsibility stuff, and I resented that and tried to tell him that, he always heard, "do more chores." In retrospect, we probably were saying what each other was hearing, because those discussions always turned into arguments, and we are both really good at going for the throat!

That is why he has so much resentment and anger now, because he doesn't know why he didn't leave sooner, he is mad at me for never doing anything to improve my outlook on life until after he left. I've tried to explain to him that I was depressed, for a lot of reasons, some not even related to him. How can you love somebody completely if you don't love yourself? How was I supposed to meet his needs when he wasn't meeting mine? The sad part is that I didn't even figure out what was going on with me until after he left and I started counseling and the whole GAL thing.

After work he tried to small talk some more. I don't know if the whole "cold shoulder but I'm obviously sad routine" is any good. I mean, ultimately,i DO want to stay married to him, I'm just not willing to put up with his OW crap anymore. So, I was just looking at him while he was talking, and he said "obviously you don't care." I told him I do care, he should always remember that, but he can't have some parts of me and not others, I am not his "buddy." He said he'd call someone who'd listen, like his mom, and smart@ss me I said I'm sure he's got another woman who he can talk to. Because, he doesn't. He doesn't call OW to tell her about his job, or his day to day stuff. Even when we were seperated and she was staying at his apartment every night, it was me he'd call for conversation. Of course, I mean she's ten years younger, fresh out of college, her life and the life they were sharing is bars and friends and good times, so she can't really relate to the stories of his "real" life.

So, total digression into another rant. But it does feel good to get it out, I don't want to burden the couple people I talk to with every minute he said/she said detail. And, today I did write in my journal, it takes so much longer to use a pen!

And, re-reading my posts from today, I guess I am kind of doing the Last resort technique, I should get out DB and re-read that section. Because as much as I hate to admit it, and will not admit it to H, my fantasy version is that by cutting him off he'll realize (before he is supposed to move out) he's blowing the most fabulous thing that has ever happened to him and beg my forgiveness!