What were you hoping to accomplish by asking where the shirt was?
You know, honestly, I think I was just expecting an answer. For whatever reason, the fact that I haven't found it popped into my head and out of my mouth came the question. I guess he threw it away. But he may have just put it somewhere that I won't find it. Either way, at this point in the progress we've made, I hoped it was far enough behind us now that he could admit what he did with it. Guess I was wrong.
A boundary is where you say: H from now on I may buy some of S5's clothes and I hope we can come to an agreement on that. Throwing away clothes that I buy for him is disrespectful to me and sends a bad message to S.
I don't really know he threw it away....he could have been telling the truth when he said he didn't know. But then last night, he didn't give me that answer, he gave me a different one. I guess I just hoped to find out the truth, have a chuckle about where we'd been and a grateful thought that we weren't in that place anymore. But the fact that H would still defend his position like this tells me that we aren't so far from where we've been.
You may have a problem being direct or setting boundaries with H so you try to circumvent the process and get all underhanded with him
Yes, this is true. I don't know how to say boundaries without making H feel 'controlled'. A boundary has to be received or heard or understood or something by the other person....in the past H would not allow that to happen...he would change the subject or argue the right or wrongness of what I was saying, etc.
But with what I've learned, I guess I just need to keep restating my position and refuse to be lead down another path. Thanks for pointing that out....I have not been direct with H in this instance nor many others. I'm afraid to be direct because I don't want to be perceived as being a dictator or condescending. I need to work on that.
Otoh, if you want a good marriage you will have to get to a point where you are willing to go it alone, rather than continually let someone violate your boundaries.
I've been there....I was hoping not to have to go back
Violated boundaries are nothing compared to how things were when they were really bad. I dread the thought of our R ever going back to a place like that....ugh. I do see your point though and I know you're right.
When you are able to calmly state your boundaries--and follow through with the consequences--he will know that his days of bullying are over.
Consequences are the thing I have a hard time coming up with. Leaving is usually the only one my uncreative brain can come up with and of course, that's done more harm than anything. Can you give me some examples of consequences that you use in your M or that you think would be applicable in mine?
I'm still here. I keep up with your sitch. I just don't have much more to add since my sitch is so much different.
Hey Jabez!! Thanks for posting...I need to get caught up with your situation~I hope everything is going well.
I have noticed a cyclical nature to your postings.
Umm, is that a polite way of saying I'm *emotional*?? Not me....
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Would you say you and your H have ever had a happy/healthy R/M. Not sexually, just in terms of respect, communication, etc. If not, than you need to start there. You two have been together since 17? That is very young and I am sure the two of you have been teaching each other how to treat each other (and not in a good way). Just because it is "normal" to you, it is not normal to an outside observer and I think you need to wrap your head around the fact that your H is treating you in a way that is only going to perpetuate the problems. You intellectually know it is not right but yet emotionally you either "put up with it" because you see no other options or you check out of the R and have an A. Lots of people take that road because they are desperate. Not blaming, just stating that is a common way for people to give them some sense of control/power again. You clearly feel pretty powerless in terms of your M so I guess you need to start taking back the power. Ok, so how do you do that. Well, you clearly have monetary power but I think that is a double-edged sword. I'm not surprised to hear that the money issue is a problem now but wasn't when you were making the same amount. Your H may unconsciously (or consciously) have an issue with that and he clearly is not shy in telling you to pay more for the bills since you make more. I think that is not a good idea. Some may disagree but since the rest of the M is already on thin ice, you are solidifying the me vs you mentality. Not in a positive/differentiated kind of way but in a power play. I'm having a problem with this line of thought, with us being at the stage in our R that we are. No emotional connection, as admitted by him in our MC session last week, no sexual relations, not sleeping in the same bed...we are indeed more like roomates. So it seems to me that until H is ready to move forward as H and W, then we will continue to live as roomates, in which case he shouldn't be asking me to ease his financial situation. I agree with this line of thinking. But you need to make a choice. Are you both in the M or out? Your H is NOT in the M yet. I know that is painful but his actions seem to contradict any sort of move to reconnect in the M. Until he is willing to do that, thru sharing the same bed, sharing the bills, sharing intimacy, you don't have to much of a M to work on. Maybe you both need IC more than MC right now? Get each of you in a healthier place and then come together in the M. H and I had to do that ourselves. Working so far. I am finally learning that H can act however he wants, and if I respect myself, I will not compromise that just for a minute's worth of satisfaction at giving H a 'dose of his own medicine'. The only satisfaction there ever was anyway, was release of my anger. Afterward, I felt only guilt for escalating the situation more than it should have been (H will always win, so if I escalate, I can only expect it to continue and hence the power struggle) and upset because I had let myself become the bad guy somewhere in the drama. I don't understand this. What do you mean H will always win? What would happen if you informed H that you want to share the bills, sleep in the marital bed, etc? Why are you always the one to back down? Is there phsyical violence? I think you mentioned something about locking ina closet or something once. Is that his usual response if you stand up for yourself? Thing is, H is so good at hiding his feelings, that I can't tell when I'm doing the right thing....that 'thing' that will show him I refuse to be treated like this. What gets the message through? Hiding his feelings??? Seems he lets you have it quite often. Shows his anger, his disgust, his unhappiness. As for you not knowing when you are "doing the right thing" to show him you will not be treated like this, well, he clearly knows you WILL ACCEPT being treated like this. You stated earlier it has pretty much always been this way. You have conditioned each other to respond to each other in this manner. He knows you will back down and not assert yourself in the M. You may go have an A, but be assertive with him, nope. Until you can do that, you M is going to be in trouble. I'm not so sure you should be letting him call all the shots in this M. Why does he decide who buys the clothes for whom, what they can wear, who sleeps where. Yikes! No wonder you guys are struggling. It sounds very controlling and abusive to me. Am I totally off base here? Other than having a history with him, what is it you love about him? What is it about the two of you together that makes each other stronger, more loving, better people, better parents?
Would you say you and your H have ever had a happy/healthy R/M. Not sexually, just in terms of respect, communication, etc. If not, than you need to start there.
No, we've never had a happy, healthy R. There is so much water under the bridge....but at this point, I feel that's all it is. Water under the bridge. If we can change our dynamics going forward, that's all I care about. If I felt like we had to address the past issues as well, I'd be completely overwhelmed....completely.
Just because it is "normal" to you, it is not normal to an outside observer and I think you need to wrap your head around the fact that your H is treating you in a way that is only going to perpetuate the problems.
I know....I've used the word 'normalize' to describe my rationalization of things that have gone on in our R. On a positive note though, I've seen efforts from H that indicate he is changing some of his behaviors. He actually called me back on the telephone last week to apologize for something. That's really something because H typically does not apologize for anything. We'll go for weeks doing really well....and then something happens like last night at dinner. And you know what? I end up blaming myself. For even bringing up the shirt thing. And then I wonder why I have problems stating my needs. I bring something up, a fight ensues, and H ends up angry at me and I'm angry at myself for not leaving well enough alone. I honestly didn't feel like I was trying to pick a fight and I honestly feel like I have a right to know what the heck happened to the shirt I paid for and S5 got to wear just a couple times. But now H and I are not speaking and I am in the living room and he is in 'his' room. So, sheesh, can you see why I might be hesitant to address subjects? Most of the titles of my old threads were 'Learning to Trust Myself' because I am so confused as to what I am entitled to feel or do.
You intellectually know it is not right but yet emotionally you either "put up with it" because you see no other options or you check out of the R and have an A. Lots of people take that road because they are desperate.
Right. I cannot fathom being away from my kids on a regular basis. They are my life, ya know? Things have got to be pretty darn bad for me to say that spending half my time away from my kids is the lesser of two evils. Kids raise the stakes so much....if it was just H and I...well it's not so we won't go there.
he clearly is not shy in telling you to pay more for the bills since you make more. I think that is not a good idea. Some may disagree but since the rest of the M is already on thin ice, you are solidifying the me vs you mentality. Not in a positive/differentiated kind of way but in a power play.
So, you're saying that you think I should or should not pay more of the bills? The me vs you mentality is being solidified if I don't pay more or if I do? I'm having trouble trying to figure out if you think the power play is on my behalf for not paying more even though I make more or if the power play is on behalf of H for requesting more of me than half.
Maybe you both need IC more than MC right now? Get each of you in a healthier place and then come together in the M.
I was in IC for over a year before we started MC and it did help a great deal. H rolls his eyes regarding MC as it is and complains about not having time to do it. He is making progress in MC though, he is responding to questions faster and talking more than I ever thought he would. As long as he doesn't feel like we address his 'issues' more than mine, I think we are actually doing pretty well in the MC sessions.
I don't understand this. What do you mean H will always win? What would happen if you informed H that you want to share the bills, sleep in the marital bed, etc? Why are you always the one to back down? Is there phsyical violence? I think you mentioned something about locking ina closet or something once. Is that his usual response if you stand up for yourself?
Ugh. I'm the one to back down for many reasons. Because H will escalate until he wins. I'm not willing to win at any price. I also back down because I can understand his point of view more than he cares to understand mine. I cheated on the man. He doesn't want me in the marital bed. Don't I have to respect that? How can I expect him to ever honor my boundaries if I refuse to honor his? As far as the bills go, I find it easier to set a boundary. I believe in what I'm saying. He should not ask more from me than he is willing to give and asking me to take more than 50% of the bills is asking more than he's willing to give. He can't 'make me' pay more. I've also been able to stick to my 'no sex' boundary. I decided I couldn't feel good about having sex with someone who wouldn't kiss me or sleep in the same bed as me. It sucks, I hate it....four months without sex now. But I've stuck to it. I've also stuck to karate. For almost a year and a half now. He's pressured me to quit in many different ways and I refuse. So, I don't always back down, it just feels like it sometimes.
The locking me in the laundry room thing is in the past. H and I were in a very escalated state and it is not a typical response from him. We had several similar incidents in that time frame, but getting physical or outright abusive is not H's typical response.
Hiding his feelings??? Seems he lets you have it quite often. Shows his anger, his disgust, his unhappiness.
He shows me what he wants me to see. He doesn't want me to see the real stuff. The hurt, the fear. So, when I do things that press those 'buttons' he hides his reactions so I don't know what causes them. Same with me trying to affect him with a boundary or a change...he will hide how he really feels and show me only what he wants me to see. Such as him whistling so it appears he doesn't give a flip about what I may have said when inside, it really turned his stomach. Does that make sense?
You have conditioned each other to respond to each other in this manner. He knows you will back down and not assert yourself in the M. You may go have an A, but be assertive with him, nope. Until you can do that, you M is going to be in trouble.
You're right. A typical situation in our pre-A R would be for me to let things build until I emotionally blew my stack. Then I would behave irrationally, pick fights, try to engage him because I could not do so otherwise. We fed off each other. But the point is that I could not seem to be assertive with H. Not until I blew, but then H could 'write me off' so to speak because I was being 'crazy'. He'd laugh and walk away. And then be angry and ignore me for days because of how I'd 'acted'. I know better now. I'm learning....being assertive and doing so clearly and calmly is a tall order for me and likely to be a very slow evolution. But I am getting it.
Other than having a history with him, what is it you love about him? What is it about the two of you together that makes each other stronger, more loving, better people, better parents?
I love his loyalty, his generosity, he's affectionate, he's intelligent. I love that he knows how to fix things. I love that his family, well, his kids are his top priority. I love it when he acts silly with me. While I can't quite say I love *him* There are lots of things that I love *about* him. It doesn't seem like there should be a difference.... I can't think of any ways in which we make each other better people, that's for sure. Lately all we do is bring out the worst in each other.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
If I felt like we had to address the past issues as well, I'd be completely overwhelmed....completely Not that I want to overwhelm you, but you are going to need to address some of those past issues if you want to improve the M. You can't just start with a clean slate. The two of you have an established pattern of interacting and you will BOTH need to change that pattern if you both want to end up happily M. I bring something up, a fight ensues, and H ends up angry at me and I'm angry at myself for not leaving well enough alone. You are directing your anger at the wrong person. This is going to lead to tons of passive-aggressive behavior, depression, and another possible A. It seems clear to me that until you start asserting yourself with him and stop LETTING him "win" the fights all the time, you will get no where. So, you're saying that you think I should or should not pay more of the bills? I'm certainly not going to tell you how to run your finances. But I just know for myself and H, the "you owe this, I owe that" mentality was not helpful in making us feel M. We have a joint account and all the bills are paid out of that account. It is "our" money, not his/hers. This takes the power-play out of it. Is there a reason you are opposed to joint account other than you've just never done it that way? As long as he doesn't feel like we address his 'issues' more than mine, I think we are actually doing pretty well in the MC sessions. Ok, as llong as you address each other's issues equally. You should not be the target of the C and neither should he. But his eye-rolling behavior says a lot about his views on C and his ability to actually change is you ask me. Just be careful he is not doing it just because you want to. My H and I wasted about 4 months in MC when his heart/mind were just not into it. And trust me, he said all the "right" things in the sessions but it did not translate into real life until HE was truly ready to take that step. Again, it does take TWO people to make a M work. And we wonder why the D rate is so high? I cheated on the man. He doesn't want me in the marital bed. Don't I have to respect that? How can I expect him to ever honor my boundaries if I refuse to honor his? It sounds like you are willing to put up with way too much sh*t seems to me. That is like my H saying, well, I left her so she can treat me like crap and punish me for as long as she fells is necessary. I know perfectly well that is not right but I don't get the sense your H sees anything wrong with how he is treating you. And that is the problem. He treated you badly before and now he has an excellent reason to continue this poor behavior, the A. He is going to be firmly entrenched in his belief system of entitlement - UNLESS you break that belief system down. You cannot do it totally on your own, without his help. BUT you can start telling him (maybe with the MC help) that the time has come to either sh*t or get off the pot. I will be sleeping in our bed again. I will be buying clothes as I see fit. I will be.... If he starts to learn that you will not back down (your typical pattern) he will respect you more in the long run. Neither of you seem to have respect for each other at all as it stands. Start there. He shows me what he wants me to see. He doesn't want me to see the real stuff. The hurt, the fear. So, when I do things that press those 'buttons' he hides his reactions so I don't know what causes them. Same with me trying to affect him with a boundary or a change...he will hide how he really feels and show me only what he wants me to see. Such as him whistling so it appears he doesn't give a flip about what I may have said when inside, it really turned his stomach. Does that make sense? Well, he is in major denial mode. It is easier for him to show anger than to show hurt. Clearly he is not ready to "go there" yet but he will need to go there eventually or you'll be talking to a brick wall the rest of your M. H sounds very emotionally immature. Does the C call him on any of these behaviors?
Quote: I cheated on the man. He doesn't want me in the marital bed. Don't I have to respect that? How can I expect him to ever honor my boundaries if I refuse to honor his?
Firstly, he is not enforcing a boundary; he is attempting to control you with his bullying behavior.
What about this: "H, I'd like to start sleeping in my bed again. What do you think about that?" H: What makes you think you deserve it? Heather: Well, I think that we should either be on the road to creating a better marriage--which would naturally include both of us sleeping in the same bed--or we should be on the road to ending it. I'm tired of being in limbo, with neither of us being happy. H: Oh so now you want a divorce! Heather: No, what I want is to sleep in our bed, with you. I'm no longer willing to live with being barred from the marital bed, indefinitely. I would like to work towards putting our lives back together. H: This is just like you. Always telling me when it's gonna happen, how it's gonna be. Heather: I'm not telling you anything about you; I'm saying that I'd like to work towards a better marriage, including sleeping in our bed, and that I'm not willing to live in limbo anymore. H: Yeah but I either accept you back in the bed, even though you're a cheating b*tch, or you're gonna file. Heather: I never said anything about leaving; I said that we need to decide which direction we're taking this marriage and act accordingly. I'm not willing to live like this forever.
He verbally abuses you so that he maintains control. The thing is, people who have to resort to such things are never really that strong, they are weak and afraid and that's why they act the way they do. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but the truth is that you wield a lot more power in the M than you think you do. Otherwise, he wouldn't be so hellbent on verbally keeping you in line.
Good post HP. And as for the marital bed, get in and say good night. If he gets up to sleep elsewhere, that is HIS decision. But that is your bed too. Not his. Don't let him make the decision for you. He can either go along with the "right" thing to do, sleep together and really work on the M, or HE can continue to do the wrong thing and bully you, push you away, etc. Don't take part in his dysfunction.
Quote: And as for the marital bed, get in and say good night.
LFL, have you read enough of Heather's thread to know what happened many months ago when she did just that? Please understand that to do as you suggest may well be an ultimatum, whether intentional or not, because if H reacts the same way he did before...
It may well be your point that if he *does* react like that again it's time to end the M. I don't think that's where Heather's at in the process, though.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I recall a few arguments that my W and I had where she demanded that I leave "MY bed." She said it was hers because she owned it before we married, therefore it was her property.
The next day, I told her that we were either going to sell it and buy another one that we would call "OUR bed," or she was going to promise to not pull that sh!t anymore. She promised.
There have been times where she has asked me to leave "our bedroom" since then, and sometimes I stay, sometimes I leave (for my own reasons). But she hasn't called it "her" bed.
Hairdog, who agrees that he needs to either start working on getting back together, or start figuring out who gets what.
Ditto on that Phase3. If I remember right Heather, he half pushed, half kicked you out of the bed and used military torture tactics or something like that. Do you think he is beyond that extreme type of response now?
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
She just stated that he is not prone to physical violence. The few times that has happened is all in the past, etc. If that is true, than what is the problem. Are we now saying he might beat the crap out of her if she gets in the bed. If that answer is yes, then what are we even discussing this for. She needs to get out of that M. OR, she can choose to stay and live in fear the rest of her life and certainly not assert herself. That is her choice I guess.
