Am I Creating a SSM?

[Burgbud]

Hey Heather!

I got a note from Joe and was inspired to come check up on you a little. I went thru your thread off and on over the weekend. I'm glad you're getting along well and H is giving you the affection you've been looking for. You have the patience of a saint; you know my patience for H ran out about the time he left you at the mall around Christmastime, which is a big reason I don't post to you much any more.

I also wanted to say something else after reading some of this thread. While you're gonna have to put the past behind you in order to make progress in the future, don't ever accept any equivalence between what you've done in your M (losing you temper, reading into H's expressions, even your EA) and what he's done (locking you in the laundry room, the scene when you tried to sleep in your bed, leaving you at the mall). You two aren't "even" by any stretch of the imagination. You're hanging in there and trying to make this work because that's what you want, not because you owe it to him since you've been just as wrong as him. Not a chance.

Having said all that, congratulations on your recent success! Keep doing more of what works...

[heatherg]

Hey Bud, it's great to hear from you As great as it is to get new perspectives on things, I still feel so at home with the people who've been around my threads since the beginning....and there really aren't many left on the boards anymore. I miss you all.

Thanks for the encouragement. H is trying harder than he ever has, so that says something. I didn't think I'd ever get him to agree to MC, but here we are.

I would love to hear about what you've been up to if you get a minute!

[heatherg]

I'm getting a little farther into the Passionate Marriage where Schnarch explains differentiation. It's pretty obvious that I need to work on differentiation in my life....I am far too sensitive to what others think, particularly where it concerns me or my character. More than just being sensitive, I am over reactive as though someone else's perception changes my reality which is really exactly what Schnarch is describing when he explains enmeshment and/or lack of differentiation.

I had a little test last night, a test of what I have learned so far. I am mostly happy with my reaction, even though it wasn't great, it would have been so much worse months ago because I never would have regrouped. I am so disappointed that the situation happened at all...I thought we were farther along in our changes regarding how we treat one another....Anyway, H and I were dining out last night with the kids and I asked a question. Let me give you a little background on the question I asked.
H usually buys S5's clothes and I usually buy D3's (H's bill is much cheaper ). H was out of town about 6 mos back I guess and I noticed that S5's pants were getting too short and he needed more shirts. So, I told H I was going to need to take him shopping. I bought S5 several things, including a hooded shirt by Osh Kosh that had a basketball making a hoop and it said "Hoops" on it. When H got home from his trip, I was dressing S5 and put that shirt on him. H took it off. I got pretty irritated because I thought it was so ridiculous that he was making such a big deal out of not liking the shirt. Good grief. Anyway, as weeks went by, it started to occur to me that I had not seen that shirt since. I asked H where he put it and he said he didn't know. I've mentioned it once or twice since then and he just says he doesn't know where it is.
So, ok, back to the present. Last night, it popped into my head and I asked him what really happened to that shirt. I didn't give very much thought to his possible answers vs where we were or if I really wanted to get into it. Mistake #1. Because the answer he gave really pissed me off. This time, he didn't say he didn't know. He said "Don't worry about it" in a way that indicated he was hiding something. I asked him to clarify what he was telling me and he just kept saying the same thing "Don't worry about it". I asked "Did you throw it away?" You know his answer. I said "If you threw it away, at least have the guts to tell me you threw it away." No answer. I asked "Is that what we do in this R, throw away other people's things because we don't like them?" No answer. "Well, if you threw it away, then I think you should pay me back." Mistake #2-it wasn't about the money, it was about his responses to me.

I told him I thought he should pay for dinner since he "owed" me money (we went there with the understanding that I was buying because he was broke) and got up and walked out. I stood outside for a minute, regrouped, decided this was not the route I wanted to take. I went back in and went around the other way to the bathroom and came back to the table from behind him so maybe he wouldn't know I ever went outside. I paid for dinner and we left.

On the way home I told him if he threw away the shirt, fine, that's just an indication of the place we were in and those were the kinds of things we did to each other back then. But to avoid my question and treat me the way he did tonight tells me that we're not exactly on the path I thought we were. I told him I found his behavior immature and disappointing and that I feel he owed me an answer and an apology. I said "I'm not saying that to be snotty, but I just really feel that way". He said sarcastically "I'm happy you feel that way". That was it. Last night he took a movie into 'his room' and watched it down there and this morning he left the house without saying goodbye to me.

Sheesh. What now?

On another note, I wanted to add that I hope I haven't discouraged everyone from posting to me because of my reactions. I am very defensive, I know. I get particularly defensive if I feel that the other person is speaking as if they "know" things about me rather than making suggestions. We've all been through a tremendous amount of grief in our Rs and I would not assume to 'know' anything about any of you. I apologize if my defensiveness has come across as a lack of appreciation for your time and input because that is entirely contrary to how I feel. Thanks for listening.

[LustForLife]

Hi HeatherG
I need get up to speed on your situation but I did want to respond to that last post. I believe you said you and your H are working on the M and not in a a state of separation right now, accept different bedrooms?
What's the money situation. I know from my own experience that H and I having separate accounts was just one more thing that made us feel divided. I believe in differentiation mentally/emotionally etc but I think a couple needs to have some sense of togetherness - meaning I definitely would be sleeping in the same bed! and I also like the idea of joint accounts. None of this "you owe me" stuff. That works against what you are trying to accomplish. Might as well be roommates.
Also, I just need to comment on your H's typical responses to you. From what I have read so far, he seems VERY disrespectful and sometimes outright mean. Why do you put up with that behavior????
Hate to be cliche, but people treat us the way we let them treat us. That's an oldie but goodie. I hope the two of you are benefiting from MC.
Need to get to work now but will follow up later.
Have a nice day!

[Cobra]

Heather,

So glad to hear you’re reading Schnarch. Maybe your H needs a copy too. I got one for my wife. Anyway, I think you did great. Turning around and coming back into the fire is soooooo hard, especially when you’d rather pick up a baseball bat! But now that you’ve done it once, and know it won’t kill you, know that you essentially turned the power balance around and put him back into the spotlight. You acted appropriately (maybe not quit at first, but you did later) and put the pressure back on him to rise up to an appropriate response on his side.

The slippery slope with differentiation is that you MUST not expect him to respond in a certain way. It is too easy to get that “holier than thou” attitude. Then you have moved past differentiation back into enmeshment, except rather than responding to him with escalation of power plays or retaliation, you respond with moral superiority (DAMN hard not to do this, especially when there is still a lot of resentment). It’s a precarious balance at first, trying to stay in the “zone.” But it does get easier.

Resentment and anger can block your ability to stay truly differentiated. To me, it’s like a gravitational force that pulls you back into the fight, sometimes overpowering everything you do to resist. From what I have read, there is no good way to release anger. I think it is a prerequisite to understand where it comes from (therefore my emphasis on understanding my FOO), but once I understood that, it was more a matter of just letting it go, accepting what happened, and moving forward. My anger can still come back if the situation is volatile enough, but I notice over time it takes more and more to rile me up.

The reason I mention anger is that I found trying to release it without understanding how to differentiate was very difficult. It was one thing to say don’t be angry, but then I was left with wondering exactly how I SHOULD feel. To me, differentiation was the matching piece of the puzzle needed to release anger. I could not effectively differentiate without releasing anger. (Not surprisingly, my wife seems to be struggling with this too.) In hindsight, I see that the development of differentiation and the move to release resentment each needs to reach a certain level of progression first (meaning I needed to understand where my anger originated and what differentiation was truly about and how I was enmeshing). Then I could “combined” the two to make further progress on both paths MUCH easier.

Also Heather, I’ve been meaning to respond to you after I seemed to have misread your sitch. I started a long reply at home and kept forgetting to bring it to work with me to complete. After reading this latest post of yours, I’m not sure there is much to answer. I think you may be seeing some of the things I was trying to address anyway.

[heatherg]

I believe you said you and your H are working on the M and not in a a state of separation right now, accept different bedrooms?

Right.

What's the money situation.

We do pretty well as far as money goes, it isn't really a concern and it's never been something we fight about. Lately it seems to be more of an issue because we used to make about the same amount of money but now I make considerably more than he does. I will be taking some additional bills under my umbrella starting this month to give him some extra breathing room.
Having separate checking accounts is just what we've always done....I'm not sure why but neither of us seems to put any meaning on it. Maybe because we always made so close to the same amount.
H seems to want me to take over bills proportional to what I make...for instance if I make 25% more than he does, I should also get 25% more of the bills than he does. I'm having a problem with this line of thought, with us being at the stage in our R that we are. No emotional connection, as admitted by him in our MC session last week, no sexual relations, not sleeping in the same bed...we are indeed more like roomates. So it seems to me that until H is ready to move forward as H and W, then we will continue to live as roomates, in which case he shouldn't be asking me to ease his financial situation. Like roomates, we split bills half and half, nothing more, nothing less.

None of this "you owe me" stuff. That works against what you are trying to accomplish.

I agree. I should not have said that, it wasn't even the issue. Stupid thing to say on my part. I just couldn't think of anything to say to make him understand my point....that you don't just throw away something that belongs to someone else because you don't like it, ya know?

I just need to comment on your H's typical responses to you. From what I have read so far, he seems VERY disrespectful and sometimes outright mean. Why do you put up with that behavior????

How do you not put up with it? I've struggled with this from day one. What can you do? My emotions have carried me away in the past because I get so defensive and upset by the things he says and does. I'm getting better at my reactions, but I can't make him stop creating the situations. Maybe as my reactions change, he won't get such a charge out of creating the situations. Do you have anything in mind?

In the past, and what I *almost* did last night was to elevate the situation. Last night, I almost didn't pay for dinner. That would have solved nothing and only turned the tables on me for not doing what I said I would do (pay for dinner). My reactions have been very similar to that in the past...reacting in the same vein as whatever H did in the first place. Under those circumstances, exchanging like behavior only compromised my own integrity as Corri pointed out to me weeks ago.

I am finally learning that H can act however he wants, and if I respect myself, I will not compromise that just for a minute's worth of satisfaction at giving H a 'dose of his own medicine'. The only satisfaction there ever was anyway, was release of my anger. Afterward, I felt only guilt for escalating the situation more than it should have been (H will always win, so if I escalate, I can only expect it to continue and hence the power struggle) and upset because I had let myself become the bad guy somewhere in the drama.

Hate to be cliche, but people treat us the way we let them treat us.

Yeah, I agree. Thing is, H is so good at hiding his feelings, that I can't tell when I'm doing the right thing....that 'thing' that will show him I refuse to be treated like this. What gets the message through? I mean last night for instance, I don't give myself an A+, but I didnt escalate the situation either. And, when we got home and even yet this morning, he acted like he was the angry one, like the situation that occurred caused HIM to be angry, when it should have been the other way around, kwim?

[honeypot]

Heather,
What were you hoping to accomplish by asking where the shirt was? If you haven't seen it in ages, then I think you know that it is gone. From H's POV, all you were doing is trying to find a reason to pick a fight with him. I happen to agree with you that, as S5's mother, you should be able to buy his clothes and dress him, for goodness' sakes.

I think this is what Corri was trying to tell you the other day. A boundary is where you say: H from now on I may buy some of S5's clothes and I hope we can come to an agreement on that. Throwing away clothes that I buy for him is disrespectful to me and sends a bad message to S.

End of story.

You may have a problem being direct or setting boundaries with H so you try to circumvent the process and get all underhanded with him (where is the basketball shirt? when you know good and well it's long gone). This is not going to work because it makes the issue not about the shirt and him throwing it away, but about you "accusing" him of something and bringing up ancient history and H is the persecuted one, blah blah.

I can certainly see why you take the bait so often with your H. He doesn't sound like an easy person to get along with.

Otoh, if you want a good marriage you will have to get to a point where you are willing to go it alone, rather than continually let someone violate your boundaries. You seem desperate to hang on to him, at all costs. He can pick this up a mile away and wants to keep you in your position of groveling, scared wife for as long as he can because then he doesn't have to change.

When you are able to calmly state your boundaries--and follow through with the consequences--he will know that his days of bullying are over.

Good luck,
H.
xo

[Jabez]

and there really aren't many left on the boards anymore. I miss you all.

I'm still here. I keep up with your sitch. I just don't have much more to add since my sitch is so much different.

I am very defensive, I know. I get particularly defensive if I feel that the other person is speaking as if they "know" things about me rather than making suggestions.

Actually Heather, I thought that some of the replies were a bit too "assertive" as well. We come to these boards w/questions and in search of affirmation of our ideas and actions. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to state it in a respectful manner.

I have noticed a cyclical nature to your postings. Your sitch seems to ebb and flow and with the ebbs, I notice your postings state your frustration and you seem to take a step back. In your last posting you caught yourself and that's a good thing! I've noticed in my own sitch that when I catch myself, I feel better and I don't think that I take a step back or a least the step back is a "baby step" back.

Keep your head and your determination up!

~J

[heatherg]

So glad to hear you’re reading Schnarch.

Yeah, so far it's been really helpful.

Maybe your H needs a copy too.

I can't imagine him ever reading a self help book, much less one I recommended. Wishful thinking.

know that you essentially turned the power balance around and put him back into the spotlight. You acted appropriately (maybe not quit at first, but you did later) and put the pressure back on him to rise up to an appropriate response on his side.

EXACTLY! Something clicked with me a little bit last night as I forced myself to do what I felt like I SHOULD do. And today, it clicks even more now that I see that the spotlight stayed right where it belonged-on him. I have rarely been able to control myself enough to accomplish that. I'm not sure how much it matters to H though, he's still acting like I did something wrong. But at least *I* feel good.

The slippery slope with differentiation is that you MUST not expect him to respond in a certain way. It is too easy to get that “holier than thou” attitude.

Do you think I bordered on this when I told him he 'owed' me an answer and an apology? Maybe I should have said I 'would like' an answer and an apology, huh?

I'm not keeping up very well when you start talking about anger and differentiation. Can you give me an example? Are you talking about anger in general or anger toward your partner, etc? I definitely have lots of anger, but am having trouble seeing how it may relate to my differentiation.

I’ve been meaning to respond to you after I seemed to have misread your sitch.

When I came to this forum, I didn't bring very much of my history with H. I had reasons for that, mostly because I want a fresh perspective and I really do want to move forward. I think though, that by not knowing all the history, it allowed for minimizing of certain issues that I have worked so hard at dealing with and understanding. So, I'm not sure you so much misread as I actually omitted.

Thanks for your willingness to understand where I'm coming from.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I can't imagine him ever reading a self help book, much less one I recommended. Wishful thinking.

Don’t blow this off so readily. His education should be at the top of your list. When and how to approach him is up to you, but you might think of putting a little pressure behind this at some point, put it into the crucible, as Schnarch says.

EXACTLY! Something clicked with me a little bit last night as I forced myself to do what I felt like I SHOULD do. And today, it clicks even more now that I see that the spotlight stayed right where it belonged-on him. I have rarely been able to control myself enough to accomplish that. I'm not sure how much it matters to H though, he's still acting like I did something wrong. But at least *I* feel good.

This is just what Corri has been preaching too.

Do you think I bordered on this when I told him he 'owed' me an answer and an apology? Maybe I should have said I 'would like' an answer and an apology, huh?

Maybe you got onto that border a little.

I'm not keeping up very well when you start talking about anger and differentiation. Can you give me an example? Are you talking about anger in general or anger toward your partner, etc? I definitely have lots of anger, but am having trouble seeing how it may relate to my differentiation.

What is anger all about if, as NotATLDave says on my thread, that you should live in the moment? Unless something is happening right now to make you mad, most anger and resentment is carry over from the past, right? Plus, you have a sense of injustice and entitlement because of those wrongs, entitlement that the other person needs to cure. Once you expect the other to do something, to fix your hurts, then you cease to differentiate and begin to re-enmesh, or “fuse” as Schanarch calls it. Your sense of satisfaction – remaining resentful or becoming happy because of an apology – is dependent on someone else. You lose control of your emotional state and are at the mercy of someone else. Differentiation and the release of anger go hand-in-hand.

Thanks for your willingness to understand where I'm coming from.

Actually I’d like to thank you and everyone else for putting up with some of my crap. This board is as much a learning experience for me as for you.