Am I Creating a SSM?

[haphazard]

Hi Heather,

I was thinking about my own FOO yesterday and I had a sudden flash of insight into your sitch. Your H is recruiting the kids onto "his team". This is something my mum always did. And it was when I noticed this that I had the insight. He is like a porcupine, rolled up in a ball with the spikes out because he is so afraid of the pain you have inflicted on him, afraid of you inflicting more pain on him. He attacks your mothering skills because he is afraid you could leave him and take the kids (if not physically then psychologically). Once you realise that all his behaviour is out of sheer fear I think you can understand him better.

Someone on this thread said you were the man and he is the woman - and I can see what they meant (it's a bit like that in my R too). It takes a certain level of masculine type energy to be the actor rather than the acted upon. I hope the porcupine image helps, cause maybe if you think of him that way you can think better about ways to coax him out of the spiky state he is in.

Others have already suggested you should quit threatening to leave if he doesn't shape up and I agree. I understand your feeling a need to lay down some kind of boundary, but maybe he is not the type to cope well with these ultimatums (My D4 cannot be coerced by ultimatums at all, she just escalates if I try it - or pretends she doesn't care). Maybe what he needs is time and reassurance. I know you feel you have given him time, but I think unfortunately every time you lose patience it is just like you have pressed rewind and the time he would have taken to calm down about it just starts over. I don't often disagree with Corri, but on this one I don't think you should ask for a date when you can get back in bed, I think that will just faze him completely. He hasn't thought about it and he can't think about it, he just knows what he feels and he is in a fog. If someone says "when's this fog gonna lift" how the heck is he supposed to know? All you can do is give him space and time and take care of yourself in the meantime. Keep reassuring him that you're not going anywhere and be encouraging whenever he does something that makes you feel better about the R, doesn't matter how minor, if he does or says something good then just say something like "you know that's the kind of thing that keeps me right here!". Give him directions out of the fog.

take care

Fran

[heatherg]

You are the pursuer. He is the avoider.

Right on. I don't know how to change this dynamic either. I've tried backing off, but he never seems to pick up the role of pursuer. Or maybe I just haven't paid close enough attention? Even if he does assume it a little, he doesn't seem to need as much closeness as I do. Plus he's got S5 whom he seems to derive a great deal of intimacy.

You chase him to get the sense of security you need.

I don't know about this part. I pursue to get my needs met because I want to be and feel close to him...maybe the closeness makes me feel secure....yes, I suppose that sounds right. I pursue to have someone to hang out with

He has intimacy and also maturity problems. He is reacting like a kid to the pain you dealt him. His pain is understandable, but he has backed himself into a corner because his ego refuses to acknowledge his role in laying the conditions for the affair. So rather than own up to this, he withdraws, shuts down denies responsibilities and focuses on his anger.

I think your assessment of H is right on as well.

For pursuers, their biggest demon is fear of abandonment.

I don't feel like I'm afraid of abandonment. I just want hang out with him, I would usually rather do things with him than either alone or with anyone else. This has always been the case, going all the way back to the beginning of the R. I had sorority friends, but I'd rather see a movie with him. And so, instead of going without him, I'd wait for him to drag his butt out of bed and get ready to go with me. He had so much power over me in this area and he knew it and he used it. What has changed is that we had kids and now he wants to get up and do things. Not to be with me, but to be with them. S5 only has to ask H to get up and he does. I used to have to plead and wait and hope. Disgusting.

I think your affair was an attempt to get his attention but you could have done that so many other ways. So why an affair? It sounds like a control tactic, an ultimatum to pull the balance of power back your way, power that you felt slipping from you.

Maybe. I don't think my actions were nearly that thought out. I have read a little about the state of mind of an MLCer and I have seen quite a few things that I feel describe my state of mind at the time. I remember feeling a sense of entitlement, like my life was slipping away, feeling trapped, feeling that I didn't want to be with H and he didn't want to be with me and we never should have married in the first place, feeling like my life was all about being a mother and nothing else but there was so much more to life, feeling unattracted to H, feeling like I would be happier and better off on my own. I felt like the R was over and the A would just solidify that. I was so angry and resentful to H. I needed counseling. Maybe if I could have recognized that those were just feelings, not really a true portrayal of my life, maybe things could have been different. But I truly was in some sort of weird fog. I remember feeling truly shocked at how hurt he was when I revealed the A. I really didn't thnk he cared that much anymore. Shocked is not an understatement.

The real issue is that you are still trying to control your H to see things your way, to respond how you like, etc. Until he comes around to agreeing with you, you cannot find comfort. But he won’t do that.

Again, this is probably right.

This is all in Schnarch. If you depend on your H to make you feel better, you are at his mercy when he gets mad for something else.

I got the "Passionate Marriage" last night and am reading it. It is impossible to be able to read and keep the things I'm reading a secret from H. He thinks all the books I read are so stupid and everytime I buy another one, I feel even stupider.

Also as you try to do things out of consideration for him, and he does not return that consideration, you will grow resentful (which is where you are now). If he does not see the need for return consideration, then what will you do? Pull another power play? Make him feel guilty for something about the kids?


If H pulls away, then I typically pull away. That is the extent of my power plays. I generally take the stance 'you want distance, fine, distance it is'. But I am resentful about it. Closeness to me is a general feeling of connectedness that spans time. I don't freak out at the first sign of him creating distance, but I definitely notice. By the third day, I'm pissed and creating distance myself.

Detachment or differentiation means you must come to terms with your core values and beliefs, know what makes you anxious and learn to sooth yourself and not look to your H for comfort.

I've struggled with this our entire R. H seems to derive comfort from so many different things~reading, playing video games, drinking, watching movies over and over, now playing with the kids. I've always struggled to find something I enjoy, a hobby or something, for those times when I can tell H would rather be doing something else other than be with me. I have never found anything I'd rather do over being with him.
I know the point of this statement and the point of what Schnarch is probably trying to get across is more of an awareness within yourself of what is happening. Being more self aware these days, I think I could handle that. The above was just to say that I think I had the right idea all along, but was still looking for something on the outside to soothe me rather than on the inside.

As much as you need to pursue him, he needs to be pursued.

What makes you say that? How can you tell?

choosing you can be made easier.

Right. H doesn't deal well with ultimatums so I think this is the only way I will every truly reach him.

I talk a lot about FOO because each of us knows our hot buttons originate there. Until we drag this out and confront it, we cannot come across as sincere in what we want and how we react to our spouse. If you can do this through counseling,

What does FOO stand for again? H and I have so much to work through, I'd rather keep my personal development separate from our MC sessions. What kinds of things do I need to ask myself to figure out what you're referring to?

Thanks!

[Lillieperl]

heather wrote

I'd rather keep my personal development separate from our MC sessions

It is impossible to separate these two things. If what you meant is "I don't want to talk about just me and my issues in the MC sessions," again, I believe that is impossible. YOUR issues and HIS issues constitute the marriage dynamics, so y'all have to talk about them in the MC sessions or elsewhere.

One C that my bf and I went to said her best therapy was when she worked with one person on their own personal issues in the presence of the other person. So we kind of took turns. You have to expose YOU in the MC sessions, not just talk about the R without getting specific about either one of you.

Sorry if this is a bit out of context... I may have missed the larger point. But your statement stuck out, and I wanted to comment on it.

FOO = Family Of Origin, i.e., your own childhood family.

[heatherg]

Hi Lillie
That's an interesting perspective, working on the individual issues in the presence of the other person. I'm a little worried that too much of that is going on right now, with the focus being on H. I'm afraid he will begin to see the sessions in the light of 'us' trying to change 'him'. I don't know quite how to make sure the scales are balanced.
It's hard because I own up to things easier, so it takes less time. The C has to coax H and wait forever for him to answer and then his first answers are usually a BS response, so she has to work through it to actually make him answer the question. So, it seems to be more about him. I wonder if that makes it seem like we are ganging up on him. Ok, I'm rambling.

I think I just meant that while FOO may help me understand myself and why I act/react/feel the way I do about certain things, it's not as solution oriented as I'd like to keep our MC sessions. I treasure every moment we have in there because it's the only forum where I feel like I have some backup in getting through H's defenses. I can't do it by myself because he won't let me. But without being rude to our MC, he can't avoid her questions entirely. So, we make progress. I try to let it be as much about him as he seems comfortable, kwim? I hate to 'waste' that time talking about my childhood, not that it is a waste of time overall, but I think it's sort of wasting *that* time that is set aside for H and I to work through our communication/intimacy/trust issues.

I do agree with you though, that it's pretty impossible to separate personal growth from changing the dynamics in the R. I would just like to separate the time frames in which certain things are addressed. At least for now. H and I are so confused and have problems that seem so big to us that my childhood seems last priority in terms of things to discuss. But it may be worth doing in some other forum....I don't know. I've never really felt that my childhood had a whole lot to do with anything. It's done, over, I wasn't particularly happy but certainly not neglected or unhappy. I've never felt a very big need to get into it, but maybe I've been overlooking something....I'm not sure.

[Lillieperl]

I treasure every moment we have in there because it's the only forum where I feel like I have some backup in getting through H's defenses. I can't do it by myself because he won't let me. But without being rude to our MC, he can't avoid her questions entirely.

I completely understand this. And I also completely understand the sense of sitting in the MC's office watching the clock and as the hour comes to a close, y'all haven't even gotten down to the big issues yet. I remember that so well... I always went to the counseling sessions with an agenda: this is what I want to get to. The main reason for this is that I have never had insurance coverage and I wrote a check at the end of each and every counseling session that I have ever attended. (My bf and I used to take turns paying until he was laid off from his job, then I took over.) So when you're writing a check for anywhere from $110 to $165 per session, you want to get your money's worth! Dead air, beating around the bush, hemming and hawing, or whatever expression you want to use for NOT accomplishing anything used to make me furious. To PAY for counseling and then sit there in silence or resist talking about the hard subjects is something I have never understood.

I very much know what you mean about not wanting to "waste" time talking about just you, when He and the R need so much work.

Alas, I never really figured out how to deal with this... now my bf goes to therapy alone, and I KNOW they're not covering things that *I* want them to cover (like lack of sex-- just TOO uncomfortable to discuss). But I'm so tired of pushing this rope uphill... I just have to hope they're making some kind of progress. I doubt very much if my bf goes in there and brings up the tough subjects... oh well, now *I'm* rambling...(and ranting)

[sat567]

Heather: I just wanted to chime in here. My wife and I started going to our current MC a little over a year ago. We had mostly joint sessions, and some of the session was spent on working on the individual's issues in front of the other spouse. It's just part of the whole deal.

We got to a point a couple of months ago where we realized that we needed to work on the individual issues more in depth, before we could work any more on the couple stuff. So we are currently seeing individual counselors, who consult with each other, and with the joint MC, with our consent. It's too early to tell how successful this will be, but I just wanted to let you know of my arrangement.

Also, you mentioned that it seems that the MC session is over before you get too deep into the issues that need to be addressed. One thing our MC said to us that really stuck was that we couldn't expect too much progress if we only talked about the hard stuff during our MC sessions. You have to make time to talk to each other outside of those sessions.

Hairdog

[Cobra]

Heather,

I see a lot of stuff in your replies. My thoughts on this may be a little direct and painful, but I am going to tell it like I see it. There is too much to dance around. Sorry if I come across too insensitive.

Everything I see in your replies to my post and others tells me you have not understood the dynamics going on here. Your focus is on what is wrong with your H and how he needs to change. It is true that he is contributing to the problem, but only 50%. If you’ve read the other threads on this board, you should by now that the very first, most fundamental lesson is that you cannot change him. He must change himself, if he wants to, when he wants to and how he wants to. He might decide not to change at all. You do have significant influence over his decision, but not total control.

Referring to “You are the pursuer. He is the avoider.”

I don't know how to change this dynamic either. I've tried backing off, but he never seems to pick up the role of pursuer.

Have you picked up the book on Love Addiction yet? This explains the roles. Schnarch explains why you should not play these roles. Right now your H is the LD avoider. This is his way of passively exerting control over you, knowing that it causes you pain. He is angry, and for whatever reason, still feels a need more vengeance. So why would he suddenly become a pursuer? But this is his stuff to work on. You should not worry about it.

I don't know about this part. I pursue to get my needs met because I want to be and feel close to him...maybe the closeness makes me feel secure....yes, I suppose that sounds right. I pursue to have someone to hang out with.

I think you diminish the extent of your insecurity here. You need him a lot more than just someone to hang out with. It sounds to me that since college you have needed to be the focus of his attention, to the exclusion of your friends and any other aspect of your life. You say

This has always been the case, going all the way back to the beginning of the R. I had sorority friends, but I'd rather see a movie with him. And so, instead of going without him, I'd wait for him to drag his butt out of bed and get ready to go with me.

This is NOT normal. You are like a puppy dog following him around everywhere. Anytime he turns around you are there, under foot, almost getting stepped on. Do you see how smothering this can be? What if someone followed you around like that? Even if it is someone you loved very much, wouldn’t you get tired of it after a while? Do you still think he has a desire to suddenly turn around and pursue you?

He had so much power over me in this area and he knew it and he used it.

Sorry, but this statement is absurd. How did he exert this “power” over you? Did he have some secret he could blackmail you with, or hold a gun to your head? This is your denial talking loud and clear. I am sure your husband does not buy this argument from you and from only what you’ve posted on this board, neither can I. Like Schnarch says, you can’t fix what you won’t acknowledge.

I don't think my actions were nearly that thought out.

No, I don’t think it was overtly conscious either, but I do think there was a voice in the back of your head that told you what you were doing. You chose not to listen to it. I don’t think you are that innocent in your actions. This again is the denial speaking. Until you own your actions and stop acting like someone or something else caused you to do something, how do you ever expect to stop doing it?

I have read a little about the state of mind of an MLCer and I have seen quite a few things that I feel describe my state of mind at the time.

Stop trying to blame this on MLC. Unless you have some other personality disorder you have not disclosed, you are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences of your decisions. Trying to pin the blame on MLC or any other “illness” is just an attempt to avoid confronting yourself. (Does your husband ever say you do this??? I’m betting yes.)

The only fog you are experiencing is that of not wanting to see the true you. This is entirely your issue, has nothing to do with your H or your situation, but may have a lot to do with your FOO. Can you give any insight here?

I got the "Passionate Marriage" last night and am reading it. It is impossible to be able to read and keep the things I'm reading a secret from H. He thinks all the books I read are so stupid and everytime I buy another one, I feel even stupider.

Why in the world do you want to keep this a secret from him? He needs to know you are working on yourself (truly working on you, not finding a new way to twist the blame onto him). This knowledge, plus changes in your behavior and actions, will limit his available responses, “forcing” changes in your relationship mix and in him.

Keeping this a secret sounds like you don’t want to upset the situation, which is what I thought you wanted to change? So why would you sabotage yourself? Are you worried about hurting his feelings? Do you think this concern for him is your way of showing your selflessness, your dedication to others? Well it isn’t. It is a breach of your integrity. Your sacrifice of your feelings for his feeling will breed resentment in you (haven’t you built up enough of this exact thing already?) and cause him to lose respect for you (hasn’t he already lost enough of this already?)

I think keeping this as secret could really in your interest, not his. Maybe by keeping the book secret, you don’t have worry about the possibility of him bringing up his complaints about you, which would make you confront yourself, and by what I see, avoiding this is your number one priority.

If H pulls away, then I typically pull away. That is the extent of my power plays. I generally take the stance 'you want distance, fine, distance it is'. But I am resentful about it. Closeness to me is a general feeling of connectedness that spans time. I don't freak out at the first sign of him creating distance, but I definitely notice. By the third day, I'm pissed and creating distance myself.

Being pissed and creating distance can still be a power play. Having an affair definitely is.

I have never found anything I'd rather do over being with him.

This is a BIG problem. Why aren’t you content doing things by yourself or with others?

I know the point of this statement and the point of what Schnarch is probably trying to get across is more of an awareness within yourself of what is happening.

No, I don’t read this out of Schnarch. Awareness is important because otherwise you are in denial and can see the problem to be fixed. But ultimately you need to find security in yourself without relying on someone else. So far you have depended on your H for your sense of self and security. As long as things are stable, this might work. But it can get stale and boring. It seems YOU are the one who has a problem with boring since you had the affair. In so doing, you sabotaged the very security you wanted. What you need to see is that you were making a power play get his attention to inject more spice into the marriage because you felt detached or abandoned by him.

Again, I don’t think awareness is the problem. I think you knew what was bothering you and why you did what you did. But you haven’t admitted the truth to yourself or your H. He also knows what is really going on, so your apologies do not resonate with him. He knows you are still avoiding responsibility, trying to make it sound like your actions were his fault. I wouldn’t accept an apology like that either.

Schnarch is saying you need to become self confident, self sufficient, self loving so you don’t need someone to do that for you. During stress, they must take care of themselves and do not have the time or energy to support you as you would like. The feeling of abandonment will anger you and make and already stressful situation worse. Awareness is important, but being self reliant, or differentiated, is the goal.

Re: ”As much as you need to pursue him, he needs to be pursued. “

What makes you say that? How can you tell?

You two are equally differentiated and on the same level. If you are chasing, he is running. If this were not true, either you or he would have left long ago. The difference is that he probably feels smothered, or engulfed, by you. So his way of finding relief, of being able to catch his breath, is to distance. He probably married you because he was engulfed in some way by his family. He wanted someone to chase him so he could feel wanted and loved. Your clinginess felt comfortable and secure to him. You two fit each other.

I'd rather keep my personal development separate from our MC sessions. What kinds of things do I need to ask myself to figure out what you're referring to?

Like Lil said, separating your personal development from your marriage is impossible, and for several reasons:

• He may not distinguish you and the marriage separately
• He sees you as dysfunctional and needs to see your personal progress
• Bringing everything into the open will be good for you. You seem to have a tendency to keep secrets (secret of affair, keeping the book PM secret, keeping your personal development secret). This may be your natural way of handling issues, to avoid direct confrontation, because of how you were raised. It may also be a consequence of your avoidance of truly seeing yourself.
• You cannot know how your H sees you and what is important to him. To assume you know how he feels would be arrogant. You need to hear his input. He knows you better than anyone else and is he one most able to make you confront your issues. I think this is what you are really wanting to avoid. Listen to that little voice in you head.

[heatherg]

Notice that word 'supposed to' in your sentence? Drop it from your repitoire, delete it from your vocabulary. It will cause you all kinds of pain and misery.


Got it!

If he is going... that's all that matters. For now.

Ok.

People don't understand just how patient you HAVE been for the last two years... not even your H. You are the type of person who sees a problem... comes up with a list of potential solutions... then you chose one, you solve the problem, and you move on. Okay... on to the next thing, please. That's a wonderful, wonderful trait you have... quite a blessing from God.

Corrie, that's a really nice thing to say and it makes me feel good that you see that in me. It has paid off well in my professional life, but things don't work the same way in my personal life

I think what you should do with your H is... maybe at dinner tonight, or some neutral time when no R talk is going on... say to him, "H, I would like to have a date from you on when I can return to sleeping in our bed. What would be good for you?"

I wonder if maybe this is something the C could ask rather than me. That may help defuse the question a little. What do you think?

You are putting an amazing amount of your energy into trying to 'fix' your marriage, and because of this, you are missing the subtlies of what IS occuring.


I know I tend to focus on the bad. I do recognize the good, I really do. When I think back over where we've been, I can hardly believe we made it out of that jungle. I'm an over-achiever, what can I say?! I guess I feel like if you focus on the good, you lose your drive to make things better. Like I said, it works well in business, but perhaps not so good at home. This could probably lead into a whole other topic, but I'll save it for later.

We all want to be good mothers....you ARE a good mother. You know it as well as I do. And as soon as you KNOW it inside, you will become completely impervious to these attacks of his. He does it because it works with you. When it no longer works with you, he'll stop doing it.


Well, sort of. Parenting is of utmost importance to him....it is to me too, we just have different views on what great parenting is. He sees my karate as a detractor from my parenting ability. I don't. Nonetheless, just like I care if my H thinks I'm a good lover, a good person, I want him to think I'm a good mother as well. I care what he thinks about me. I do know I'm a good mother, but if my partner doesn't think so, it hurts. I've always cared what other people think about me, especially H. I'm probably a little too sensitive, but I guess I always thought it was a good quality to care what other people think about you. I tend to view people who don't care what others think as somewhat arrogant and probably selfish.

The kids sleeping in bed with him thing....Stay consistent about the issue, stay consistent in your action/reaction to it... and above all, STOP making it about YOU.

Ok. I do need to stop personalizing everything. Thanks.

As far as making a happy M. Hm. I suppose the best advice I can give you on that one is to ask yourself, "can I accept him EXACTLY as he is today, and still be happy?"

Does accepting him mean I have to accept the M as it is?

I know what it is you want from him, but understand that he may not be able to deliver it, for whatever reason. Over time, you will be able to work out for yourself what you want/need in your life... and whether those wants/needs are negotiable or not. Then you will be able to make decisions that are best for YOU, and you won't be making decisions because of HIM and what he is or is not doing.

This sounds great, but I'm not sure I understand how to do that. The two are so closely related.

Hang in there, girl. You are doing great. I sure as heck admire your grit and determination.

You WILL get there. Where 'there' is, I don't know... but you'll get there. Promise.

Thanks Corri!

[heatherg]

My thoughts on this may be a little direct and painful, but I am going to tell it like I see it. There is too much to dance around. Sorry if I come across too insensitive.

No worries. You get a lot right but you get a lot wrong too. No harm done and when you get it right, it's helpful.
This is a difficult forum sometimes because written words can only tell you so much and it can be so darn inefficient

Everything I see in your replies to my post and others tells me you have not understood the dynamics going on here.

My take is this: H and I were experiencing serious problems and then I made things exponentially worse by having an A. Our M has been to hell and we are just very recently coming down from a very elevated state where power struggles were a daily occurrence. I take full responsibility for the A, I've said before there were so many other options. So many. H is very, very angry and resentful toward me for having an A. We are making very slow progress, we are in M counseling and we are behaving nicely toward one another. There are things I have to change and there are things he has to change. Here is my list as I see it:

I need to be more validating to him, listen better to what he is really trying to say when he talks. I need to continue to get better at filtering my thoughts. Everything I think does *not* need to come flying out of my mouth. This goes hand in hand with controlling my reactions to situations, controlling my anger. I need to be more appreciative and remember to treat H like I would like to be treated. I need to be more proactive. For instance, if I want to go out for a night, I should just ask H, arrange it and go for it rather than complain about never going out. I need to continue my self growth, talking things out, trusting in myself, understanding my own feelings and reactions and take repsonsibility and ownership of them.

Apparently, in my thread I've been a little too hard on H as to what he needs to work on, so I'll limit this to my 50%. If you have anything to add, delete or otherwise augment, please make suggestions, that's why I'm here. The above is not an inclusive list by any means, just what I could think of off the top of my head, things that have caused the most trouble in my R with H IMO.

Your focus is on what is wrong with your H and how he needs to change.

I probably do focus on H's issues quite a bit. I want to give him whatever he needs to get past his issues so we can move on, so I do dwell on his stuff a lot. I do quite a bit of venting too.

If you’ve read the other threads on this board, you should by now that the very first, most fundamental lesson is that you cannot change him. He must change himself, if he wants to, when he wants to and how he wants to. He might decide not to change at all.

Right. I understand this. I'd like to change so that he, in turn, can change as well. I strategize, I try to understand what they dynamics are and what my next 'move' should be. I hate to make it sound so methodical, but my ultimate goal is for us BOTH to change. From my perspective, I'm doing my part, I'm trying. You make a suggestion and I'm almost always open to it. You recommend a book and I almost always buy it. And even read it too

Have you picked up the book on Love Addiction yet?

I wasn't sure which book by Schnarch you wanted me to get...I got Passionate Marriage. It was the only one Barnes & Noble had so I figured it must be the one. Love Addiction is really the book you were suggesting? If so, I may have to get it from Amazon.

It sounds to me that since college you have needed to be the focus of his attention, to the exclusion of your friends and any other aspect of your life....This is NOT normal. You are like a puppy dog following him around everywhere. Anytime he turns around you are there, under foot, almost getting stepped on. Do you see how smothering this can be? What if someone followed you around like that? Even if it is someone you loved very much, wouldn’t you get tired of it after a while? Do you still think he has a desire to suddenly turn around and pursue you?

Apparently I've worded my statements about this to sound much more ominous than it is. But just to make sure, I asked H if he's ever *felt* smothered by me or pursued by me or if he thought I was ever clingier or needier than he would prefer. He looked genuinely confused and just said 'No' and kind of looked at me like why on earth are you asking me that.

When I say I am the pursuer, that means to me that I am the one who tries to maintain the closeness and a warm temperature in our R. It doesn't mean I am under his feet like a puppy dog.
I didn't exclude my friends in college, I hung out quite a bit. But only ever really did things like go out to the bar or do things that H didn't enjoy doing. There a couple reasons for this. First I genuinely would rather do things with H. He was my best friend. Second, H set a rather srong precedent in the beginning of our R for any friends of mine and as we went along in our R, he made it clear he wasn't interested in being friends with my friends' SOs. If I did things with friends that H wanted to do, it would have caused problems in the R.

I said: He had so much power over me in this area and he knew it and he used it.

You said: Sorry, but this statement is absurd. How did he exert this “power” over you? Did he have some secret he could blackmail you with, or hold a gun to your head? This is your denial talking loud and clear.

This is where I started to get irritated with you. I slept on it and am fine now, but your statement above was clearly intended to get a reaction from me. My reaction to you is simply this~if you wanted to know more details about why I would say something like that, perhaps you could have asked *before* you so concisely told me I was being absurd? I have very specific reasons and examples of why I said what I said....but I'm pretty much feeling at this point that your additional questions on the issue were merely rhetorical. Interesting that you think I'm in denial though. Thanks for that observation.

Stop trying to blame this on MLC. Unless you have some other personality disorder you have not disclosed, you are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences of your decisions. Trying to pin the blame on MLC or any other “illness” is just an attempt to avoid confronting yourself.

I sincerely did not mean to sound like I was 'blaming' my actions on an MLC. I don't think I actually went through a full blown MLC and even if I had, I believe an MLC is still something one needs to take responsibility for, as you mentioned it is not a personality disorder.

Cobra, at this point, I have to ask you exactly what it is you feel I'm in denial about and what you think I'm avoiding??? I have completely open here as well as in my M. I am matter of fact. I have problems, I do my best to address them. I would love it if H would do the same. I do not pretend his problems don't exist and I don't tip toe around them on this board. Nor have I tip toed around my problems on this board. I have not tried to blame anything or anyone for my A or for any other shortcoming I have.

The only fog you are experiencing is that of not wanting to see the true you. This is entirely your issue, has nothing to do with your H or your situation, but may have a lot to do with your FOO. Can you give any insight here?

You sound so sure of yourself, it's like I've known you all my life instead of a month. Now that we've narrowed down what kind of fog I was in, I guess we can talk about FOO. What kinds of questions do I need to ask myself regarding FOO? I honestly don't know. There may be a lot of discovery there, it's pretty much uncharted territory as I've said.

Why in the world do you want to keep this a secret from him? He needs to know you are working on yourself (truly working on you, not finding a new way to twist the blame onto him). This knowledge, plus changes in your behavior and actions, will limit his available responses, “forcing” changes in your relationship mix and in him.

Because he thinks self help is humorous, a joke, something for confused people. He doesn't view it in a positive light, as me trying to 'work on myself'. I'm not saying I want to keep it a secret per se, I would just prefer not to be laughed at or ridiculed about it.

I think keeping this as secret could really in your interest, not his. Maybe by keeping the book secret, you don’t have worry about the possibility of him bringing up his complaints about you, which would make you confront yourself, and by what I see, avoiding this is your number one priority.

You're simply just wrong here Cobra.

Being pissed and creating distance can still be a power play.

Definitely. I just said it was the extent of my power plays (I'm not particularly creative )

The difference is that he probably feels smothered, or engulfed, by you. So his way of finding relief, of being able to catch his breath, is to distance. He probably married you because he was engulfed in some way by his family.

This is wrong too, IMO.

He wanted someone to chase him so he could feel wanted and loved. Your clinginess felt comfortable and secure to him. You two fit each other.

He wanted someone he could control. My willingness to do what he wanted made him feel loved. I 100% believe it was that simple.

to avoid direct confrontation, because of how you were raised. It may also be a consequence of your avoidance of truly seeing yourself.

It's a result of staying away from what doesn't work. H doesn't like confrontation and I know you're thinking that I'm blaming him for not wanting to truly see myself. Well, you're entitled to think that. The fact is, I've been discussing difficult issues on these boards for a year and half now and I've been in C even longer. I've never had my C tell me I avoided difficult issues. If anything, it's the opposite, perhaps I'm too confrontational, too methodical in my approach. H and I don't discuss difficult issues outside of MC, but in MC we are making some progress because as I've said, H can't avoid her questions and be rude to her like he is to me when he doesn't want to discuss something. You know how you said you can't control anyone but yourself? This is a great example of that. It's pretty hard to have an important R discussion by yourself. And that's basically where things are with H and I still. He will do just about anything to avoid taking responsibility for his half of our M. Last week in C, he tried to tell the MC that I have all the control over how well our R goes, it's all in my hands. It took probably 15-20 mins for the C to pry out of him how that could be and it ended up with her saying 'So, you're just going to do what you want to do and Heather can either choose to react positively or negatively to that and that is how you perceive that she has all the control over the direction of the R?'

She can get to the bottom of things like this....if we were at home, H would walk away, tell me I was being an idiot, I'm deranged or delusional. And that is why we don't talk about difficult issues. Because talking doesn't work for us, at least not yet.

[heatherg]

Update~
H and I had a pretty good C session last week. Things got a little intense at certain times and I was afraid that H was feeling pressured. Toward the end of the session, she left to make a copy of something and I said "You know how they say 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?'" I was indicating that we should not carry negative feelings from C back into our daily routine and he said "What are you saying, that I should never let you go to Vegas?" That struck me as funny. That lightened things up a little. The C does tend to focus on him a lot, she always starts out addressing him, which is great by me because it breaks through his barriers a little more each time. She started out asking him how he was feeling and he absolutely could not answer her. She finally got out these little plastic faces each showing a different emotion and she showed him each one and asked 'do you feel like this?' and so on. Finally, we got out that he was happy. Maybe he just didn't want to admit it???! He said 'Things are going good'.

The largest topics we covered were getting to the bottom of H's comment that "The way the R goes is determined by Heather, she controls whether or not we get along". The other topic we mostly discussed was S5's bedtime. I didn't intend to get into a discussion about that, I was only giving an example of a situation where I was not allowed to make a parental decision concerning S5. The C sort of veered off the topic we were discussing which disappointed me and she started talking asking questions about the specifics of S5's bedtime, which I didn't really want to get into again. H thinks I have a problem with his R with S5. I told him he has placed S5 to a status in the family that a child should not have and probably doesn't even want to have and it has thrown off the balance in the family because instead of him and I at the top with our children underneath, it has become S5 and him at the top with me underneath. The C agreed that the balance in the family is off.

The C asked H several times what I can do to make things better and he said that time was what he needed. He indicated he needed a lot of time under our belts to assure him that the R would remain intact before trust would start to be regained. I've been on the fence so long and certainly did not keep that a secret, so H needs to be reassured that I am not going anywhere. Understandable.

We have another session tomorrow.

Overall, we are getting along well, H is back to being affectionate. He's using touch, which I find very reassuring.