Thanks guys. I will let his response to the MC appt slide. It reminded me of something I read somewhere in the context of not only do we expect certain things of our partners, but we also expect them to be happy about providing it. Guess it's just too much to ask in some cases.
About the card though, I'm surprised. It didn't occur to me that I shouldn't get one at all. I thought it could be a small gesture to keep the positive momentum going in the R, let him know I was thinking of him, and if I took the approach of saying "I'm happy to have a second chance with you" it could also fill a small need for an apology/acknoledgement that he did not have to give me a second chance. Those are things H seems to still need from me, remorse, regret, etc. Does expressing gratitude that we are still together qualify as a sort of apology?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
In my view...the card is unnecessary. YOU are going to MC, that right there shows your are remorseful for your actions and you are working on correcting them. Doing too much stuff (like a card to thank him) right now...can be going overboard and make you appear needy, that can be translated in to "unattractive" KWIM? Just go to the MC, and validate him while you are there....and validate him outside of MC too, but don't go overboard.
"About the card though, I'm surprised. It didn't occur to me that I shouldn't get one at all. I thought it could be a small gesture to keep the positive momentum going in the R, let him know I was thinking of him, and if I took the approach of saying "I'm happy to have a second chance with you" it could also fill a small need for an apology/acknoledgement that he did not have to give me a second chance. Those are things H seems to still need from me, remorse, regret, etc. Does expressing gratitude that we are still together qualify as a sort of apology?"
Please don't get me wrong Heather. If your gut feeling says that getting a card is a good idea, based your knowledge of your M, then by all means go ahead.
Just be careful about the remorse/regret thing. Proper guilt shows us that we did something wrong. Once we admit our fault and accept it, the time for guilt is OVER. Excessive guilt is dwelling on a mistake ad infinitum, and is worse than useless. IMHO, you should not apologize anymore for the A. You should be clear that you view it as a mistake of your own making, that you are 100% at fault for, but the time for remorse is over. If your H cannot let it go, that is his problem now, not yours. You need to keep your mind focused on the future.
However, I will say that maybe you could give it one final scrub with the Brillo pad. NOPkins once suggested that I give my W a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Harley as a "gift" and then let her decide what to do with it. Maybe such an action is warranted in your case. (other folks on this board, feel free to jump in here).
Chrome
p.s. GEL, can you make it a Diet Coke ... I'm a little overweight. LOL
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Heather I think you can have a profound effect on your M, and it come become a much better M, in a fairly decent (short) time frame. I was hoping to be able to assist, along with some others here, who I think can assist you too.
If you are looking for someone to revist the past with, and hold on to the negative things from shortly after your A, if you are looking for a guy to commiserate with you and say your H is a terrible person and that your all that, then Ill step aside.
Im not that guy. If I can be of some help, I would enjoy that. If I confuse you, let me know. If Im not clear let me know. Otherwise Ill be happy to step aside.
Quote: regarding my H wanting me to figure something out. You said ......... ... .. Nothing about this connection you believe you've made between H's comment and something that was going on prior to the A is direct or straightforward to me.
<sniff sniff> smells stinky. Not sure I want any of that yet...
Ill deal with the simple stuff first. Seeing that I am a man and all..
You mean the suggestion itself is a 360 indicating that I'm returning to some old behavior? Yes.
Do you think because he said that once that I should never bring it up again? <squinty look.> Your a very sharp girl, and this is slightly insulting. Attacking me isnt going to get you anywhere, however subtle you may go about it. To answer the question--- of course not.
I've never seen anyone disagree that the A needs to be spoken about at some point in order to get past it. Do you disagree?
<squinty look.> again.
Thats not what you were doing with your demands and ultimatums with how the C session would be run. You were stamping your foot and wanting to force a issue to resolution. Not gonna happen that way. to answer the apparent question though. No I dont disagree. It needs to be talked about. As chrome brilliantly stated that doesnt mean holding on to it or letting it be held over your head constantly by you or him.
What I want is to build a great today. And then tomorrow, I will want to build a great today.
Nod. OK. good. things drag us down, I understand that. We try. Your trying. Your H is trying. Your just as much a PITA as he is.
When I go to bed at night, tonight in fact, I would like to know I can sleep in my own bed if I choose.
I think you could. But you want to 'be asked back'. Have you clearly communicatted that want to your H? Thats not something you just want him to figure out is it?
But as Lil pointed out, even people held catpive see 'signs' in their captors If you think H is abusive or an alcoholic then there is likely no resolution. I asked you about that already though. I think you and your H have a dynamic. Actions you have been taking have been improving the dynamic. I'd like to live like we are trying. There are positive signs in the R, positive signs that H is trying.
Yes there are. I see that he is trying. Just not how you want him too. Ditto for him I bet.
What is really trying and what is simply 'better than being locked in the laundry room'? What is really trying and what is simply better then having EA's. You want to hold onto this --be my guest. Your H can point fingers just as well as you.
Not a solution. You need to vent here? fine. Understood. I approve.
Tell me who is being 'clear and obvious'?? Neither of you. I could go back and pull stuff from your posts but thats not helpful either.
Quote: what is he currently doing that is punishing or abusive.
If you haven't picked up on this by now, we are seemingly not in agreement on the topic. Several others seemed to have picked up on it.
<chuckle> Very P/A response. I was asking a sincere question so you could get ideas on how to deal with it. Last I heard things were going much better.
excepting the bedtime/sons situation.
He is passive aggressive with revealing his hurt and I have lost most trust in him because I can't tell if what he is saying is how he truly feels or is meant as part of a greater plan to hurt me or further show me the 'consequences' of my actions
yes to all of it. Im sure he feels the same way, yes?
I really don't waste too much time thinking about riddles anymore, I am learning to recognize where my problems end and his begin. Those problems don't belong to me
excellent. very good. This will allow you to accept.
I do sometimes need to be reminded of this. Although it's never taken me two years to snap my fingers....
hahah. very funny. but true and part of what your H's issues are.
Those changes your H made to his drinking habits. Were those done when you were nagging him, or were they done on his time frame, and at a point when he thought it was neccessary for it to occur?
as much as I want to get into the head spinning stinky stuff at the beginning of the post, Ive run out of time for the evening. 'V for Vendetta' at the IMAX calls me. Hope it doesnt suck.
Hope you C session goes well. You can do this. Set goals. Stay focused. move forward. one day, one step at a time. Tie your shoes, double knot them. Its a marathon.
Sometimes I have a problem understanding what Blackfoot is trying to say, but I always find his advice on target. Here is how I am seeing your relationship, now that I am learning more about you.
You are the pursuer. He is the avoider. You chase him to get the sense of security you need. He has intimacy and also maturity problems. He is reacting like a kid to the pain you dealt him. His pain is understandable, but he has backed himself into a corner because his ego refuses to acknowledge his role in laying the conditions for the affair. So rather than own up to this, he withdraws, shuts down denies responsibilities and focuses on his anger.
For pursuers, their biggest demon is fear of abandonment. I think your affair was an attempt to get his attention but you could have done that so many other ways. So why an affair? It sounds like a control tactic, an ultimatum to pull the balance of power back your way, power that you felt slipping from you. You two are still engaged in this struggle. So how to break through?
You have allowed him to punish you for two years, but now this is building resentment in you and you are ready to get even. That will only cause him to raise the stakes. So you take a moral high ground over where is best for your son to sleep. At this moment, your H is not interested in any long term damage your son may suffer from sleeping with him, if any. Your comments will feel like control to your H. Trying to portray a good marriage to your son will not work either. H can simply ask what kind of example were you giving with an affair. The real issue is that you are still trying to control your H to see things your way, to respond how you like, etc. Until he comes around to agreeing with you, you cannot find comfort. But he won’t do that.
Like Corri is trying to tell Hairdog, this comfort must come from within you. This is all in Schnarch. If you depend on your H to make you feel better, you are at his mercy when he gets mad for something else. Also as you try to do things out of consideration for him, and he does not return that consideration, you will grow resentful (which is where you are now). If he does not see the need for return consideration, then what will you do? Pull another power play? Make him feel guilty for something about the kids?
Detachment or differentiation means you must come to terms with your core values and beliefs, know what makes you anxious and learn to sooth yourself and not look to your H for comfort. He must eventually learn to do the same thing because he is every bit as enmeshed as you are. It will be much more difficult with him since his natural reaction is to withdraw, avoid and feel sorry for himself. You must learn that you cannot control this. You are at his mercy. You ability to influence him comes from working on improving yourself and making you someone he admires and wants to be around. But you also need to lay down some boundaries that you will not tolerate his behavior much longer.
As much as you need to pursue him, he needs to be pursued. You want to force him to choose you over staying distant from you. But for him, this is no hard choice. Two years should tell you how he will decide. To get him to choose you, the alternative choice needs to be more unpleasant (not to say you are unpleasant, but confronting his issues in order to get through his anger to then choose you will be unpleasant for him). To many, this choice comes down to confronting oneself or divorce. Maybe you can find some alternative other than divorce to make him choose. That’s up to you.
How to make this choice easier? The alternative choice can be made more unpleasant or choosing you can be made easier. Making you more pleasant, learning to listen to and acknowledge his needs without interjecting your needs is one way to ease his choice. You can also learn your faults and fears and let him know you’ve learned this. Note that what I suggest here is enmeshment, since his feelings toward you will be influenced by what you put out to him. But once the relationship is repaired and defenses lowered, you both can start working on healthy differentiation. Pick up Schnarch. Its all in there.
What Blackfoot is telling you is how to make you an easier choice. I talk a lot about FOO because each of us knows our hot buttons originate there. Until we drag this out and confront it, we cannot come across as sincere in what we want and how we react to our spouse. If you can do this through counseling, you H will know you are truly working to change for the better instead of pointing your finger at him.
Quote: I guess he's going and that's all that matters, but I don't want to feel like I'm dragging him. This is MC, it's supposed to be a mutual endeavor, not something I'm 'making' him do.
RED ALERT, RED ALERT Notice that word 'supposed to' in your sentence? Drop it from your repitoire, delete it from your vocabulary. It will cause you all kinds of pain and misery.
Your H has full dominion and control over how he acts and reacts. Doesn't mean you have to be happy about it, doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but what it does mean is YOU get to control how you decide to act and behave. Remember our 'respect' conversation. If he is going... that's all that matters. For now.
As for the other things going on... you so make me chuckle... in a good way. People don't understand just how patient you HAVE been for the last two years... not even your H. You are the type of person who sees a problem... comes up with a list of potential solutions... then you chose one, you solve the problem, and you move on. Okay... on to the next thing, please. That's a wonderful, wonderful trait you have... quite a blessing from God.
I think what you should do with your H is... maybe at dinner tonight, or some neutral time when no R talk is going on... say to him, "H, I would like to have a date from you on when I can return to sleeping in our bed. What would be good for you?"
If he begins questioning you on the whys, how comes, etc., just keep it simple. "I want to be back in my own room, in my own bed, where I belong." Keep restating that. If he gives you a date, don't bring it up again, and when the day comes... get back in bed... and don't bring it up again.
I think what BF is trying to get across to you, at least on one point, is the amazing power of the 'unspoken' word. What is NOT said can be as important, sometimes more so, than what IS said. You are putting an amazing amount of your energy into trying to 'fix' your marriage, and because of this, you are missing the subtlies of what IS occuring.
Stop trying so hard. Relax. You are in the same house. As long as you are, there is hope.
As for the kids... girl... <chuckle>. My H used to do this to me all the time... if he wanted to 'get' to me, he would 'subtlely' attack me on my mothering skills... whew... 0-60 in .01 seconds... until I actually asked myself about this.
Most women take mothering very seriously. We all want to be good mothers. You probably feel guilt for leaving during the post A blow up... your H becomes 'pious' and holds the "well, someone has to be concerned for the kids... and obviously it isn't you, because YOU are always out, running around with other men, going on business trips, business dinners, karate," etc., etc. And this NAILS you every time.
Sweety, you ARE a good mother. You know it as well as I do. And as soon as you KNOW it inside, you will become completely impervious to these attacks of his. He does it because it works with you. When it no longer works with you, he'll stop doing it.
The kids sleeping in bed with him thing... is not good, we all know that. In his defense, sometimes it is so much easier just to let them stay put because at least then everyone can get to sleep....
But. As a good mother, you recognize this must be nipped in the bud. So. Stay consistent about the issue, stay consistent in your action/reaction to it... and above all, STOP making it about YOU.
This is an issue about your kids, not the fact that your H isn't supporting you in the resolution of the issue. If you continue to let him be part of the issue, you will continue to feel frustrated.... because he is still getting you on your 'mothering' ability. Because really, whether he supports you or not, this issue needs to be resolved. And you, being the very good and competent mother you are, CAN and WILL fix this one. Leave him out of it. All it's doing is confusing you.
As far as making a happy M. Hm. I suppose the best advice I can give you on that one is to ask yourself, "can I accept him EXACTLY as he is today, and still be happy?"
Ask for what you want/need from him. "Honey, can I have a hug?" He can say yes or no. Don't personalize it. (Hard to do, but there it is. Keep reminding yourself that his answer isn't about YOU, it's about him and what he is feeling inside.)
"Honey, would you go for a walk with me?"
I know what it is you want from him, but understand that he may not be able to deliver it, for whatever reason. Over time, you will be able to work out for yourself what you want/need in your life... and whether those wants/needs are negotiable or not. Then you will be able to make decisions that are best for YOU, and you won't be making decisions because of HIM and what he is or is not doing.
For someone who is used to solving problems, this is going to be tough for you because all of this is going to take time, and no one can give you an answer on HOW MUCH time (which would make you feel so much better... you could deal with THAT).
Consider, though, that the reason all this 'no time frame R stuff' is so tough for you is because you are learning something. Keep that in mind. And what you are learning right now is very important... at some point, the light bulbs are going to start going off for you... and you will find more and more personal hope and motivation.
Hang in there, girl. You are doing great. I sure as heck admire your grit and determination.
You WILL get there. Where 'there' is, I don't know... but you'll get there. Promise.
If you are looking for someone to revist the past with, and hold on to the negative things from shortly after your A, if you are looking for a guy to commiserate with you and say your H is a terrible person and that your all that, then Ill step aside.
On the contrary, I think I've done a pretty good job of *not* revisiting the past. You wouldn't know that though because you don't know how much there actually is in the past; I doubt you've read any of my older threads. The past is not gone, it won't be forgotten, but I don't think I dwell on it <anymore>. The reference to the laundry room may have been somewhat snide, but I was mostly being serious in making my point. I am not looking for people to tell me how terrible my H is. I am looking for people who try to understand the dynamics that are going on in the R and recognize which things I can change (my problems) and which things I cannot change (H's problems) and make suggestions accordingly. Oh, and a dose of validation never hurts either right? Validation of my feelings doesn't mean that my H is a terrible person, it means that you recognize the hurtful effect his actions have on me.
<sniff sniff> smells stinky. Not sure I want any of that yet...
BF, I think you have a lot of good advice in you and I do think you could help my situation. But what are you talking about here? You don't seem to have any problems laying your thoughts on the table, so what is up with this?
I said: You mean the suggestion itself is a 360 indicating that I'm returning to some old behavior? You said: Yes.
I don't have the desire or the time to try to interpret your words. I have communication problems with my H~all my 'figuring out' time is spent there. Again, if you have something to say, say it. Which behavior, what makes you think that, does it remind you of a specific situation that I've shared already? What?!
Thats not what you were doing with your demands and ultimatums with how the C session would be run. You were stamping your foot and wanting to force a issue to resolution. Not gonna happen that way. to answer the apparent question though. No I dont disagree. It needs to be talked about. As chrome brilliantly stated that doesnt mean holding on to it or letting it be held over your head constantly by you or him.
If you agree that it needs to be talked about, do you have a better suggestion than bringing it up in C? I don't recall stomping my feet. I recall saying it *is* time to discuss it and if we get into it, we'll discuss it until H chooses not to discuss it anymore. I already know that I can't make H discuss anything. But that doesn't change my mind that it is time. Time to get it out, time for me to listen, time for me to do what I need to do to reassure, and time to move on. That's not me stomping my feet BF. If I may, let me tell you how you can better help me. If you disagree with something I say, tell me you disagree and state why. Don't resort to mockery and/or trying to create insulting visuals of my behavior.
<chuckle> Very P/A response. I was asking a sincere question so you could get ideas on how to deal with it. Last I heard things were going much better.
This was not intended to P/A. The issues are already out there. The *biggest* reason I came on this board. What was it? Because my H won't sleep in a bed with me but he wants to have sex with me. That is punishing behavior. What harm does wearing his wedding ring cause him? None that I can think of. So, why doesn't he wear it? That is a punishing behavior. Do I need to go on? None of these things by themselves are 'abusive'. But when you take them all together along with the many others, it does start to look a like a slippery slope. None of these issues are new to my thread. That is why I said if you don't recognize any abusive tendencies then we are seemingly in disagreement on the subject. Have I cleared up my P/A statement? The things that are better are: We're talking about the future, remodeling the house ect. We're giving some affection, hugs and pats etc. We're being friendly and nice to each other on a consistent basis. H has gotten much better about backing me with S5 if S5 says something hurftul or disrespectful etc.
While those are positive things, I still don't see any great leaps in the actual R dept. I am still mostly afraid to discuss anything with him out of range of our MC. I still feel very limited as far as what I can do with friends, etc. And to bring that up or try to do anything out of the ordinary will surely sour our 'good roomate' status. There is so much that isn't right, I can only be happy about a pat on the back for so long, ya know?!
Those changes your H made to his drinking habits. Were those done when you were nagging him, or were they done on his time frame, and at a point when he thought it was neccessary for it to occur?
On his time frame. Which, right or wrong, was part of the problem. I know that it is best for alcoholics to make changes only when they are ready and when they're doing it for themselves. I wanted to leave my H because he drank too much. I wanted for that fact to make him ready to make changes. That sounds controlling or manipulative on the surface, but think about it for a second before you decide that. I was miserable and mostly hated him. But the alcohol mattered more to him than what I thought of him or his behaviors. Talk about a M buster. Like I said, right or wrong cannot be decided here. It just was what it was and is what it is. The way I feel about this isn't going to change. And his timeframe was his timeframe and that wasn't going to change. We can go forward, fine. But I'll always know that I come second in so many ways. And that causes a lot of feelings that I generally just have to thought-stop.
Hope you C session goes well.
It did go well, thanks. I'll journal about it a little later. I need to do it while it's fresh in my mind, but I have a lot of stuff I need to do. I did realize something during the session though. I don't really know what to make of it, but the implications scare me a little.
Thanks for listening.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
