Your husband getting upset when you don't do things his way is immature and controlling. Of course, don't tell him that..you can't.
I remember times when the pain of my M was so hard that sometimes I had to sleep on the couch. A few days here and there. But my kids never knew! Or if they did find me there on a SAturday I'd say I couldn't sleep..which was the truth.
All that to say, you sleeping on the couch and your S5 sleeping in bed with your H....VERY bad training. It is unaccpetable.
I know you don't have any control over this.
What has your H said about this? He surely knows that he is modeling a weird thing to your son.
An amazing motivator has been...do I want my kids to go through a difficult M? Then I gotta change...I have to work it out....to show them how to have a good marriage.
Try that one on your H. Kids will do what they see done. Even kids who are abused will seek out abusive relationships becausae they are familiar with it.
Ask you H...do you want your son to have a marriage like this? He will...unless we show him something different. Let's go to counseling!
Someone once said that the greatest gift you can give your kids is a loving marriage. Why? Not just the security...but to show them they can and how to have one! Your son will do the same thing to his wife that he sees his dad do to you...unless something changes.
That was a huge motivator for me to change. It was one of them.
I think that was a very good article. But as I learn more and more about relationships, I can see that the issues discussed are really symptoms of further underlying problems. They result from even deeper FOO. The reason I bring this up is that my wife and I went through a lot of this type of thing years ago. She liked to bring up all these types of analysis. But just saying you will stop the behavior is very difficult to follow through on. The underlying NEED to act out remains, so a new tactic is developed and the relationship just evolves to a new form of dysfunction. That is why I think the behavioral changes are two sided – there can be good benefits to them if the changes somehow sooth the underlying FOO issue. But if not, a new damaging behavior will emerge to replace the old one.
Heather,
The article does highlight what enmeshment can look like. It is nothing more that codependency, which in turn comes from a lack of security in your upbringing. Looking to fill this insecurity or fear, you look to others to validate you, to give you the comfort you want. So your husband’s actions determine how you feel. When he distances, you feel panic, so you find a way to react that affirms he will not desert you. He obviously is doing the same to you. This is how you two are enmeshed.
Cutting off the enmeshment can make both of you go into a panic feeling and the fighting will escalate before it gets better. What I have seen is that the fighting gets TOO bad and the marriage falls apart, just when things are at their worst. So I wonder why counselors don’t encourage re-enmeshment just so couples can become comfortable again, stop the fighting, and slowly start working toward differentiation (the opposite of enmeshment).
Anyway, you really need to understand this concept inside and out. If you haven’t read Schnarch, I advise you to do so. “Addiction to Love: Overcoming Obsession and Dependency in Relationships” by Susan Peabody is also very good. It explains the pursuer/avoider dynamic.
As for as my comments to you go, I see now that I got your roles reversed. You two have switch the traditional male/female role of so many marriages, even my own. But thinking about it, I not sure how much it really matters. You two are essentially doing the same thing to each other, just in different ways. Men will express more anger and can be more abusive, but I would guess his underlying reasons are very close to yours. The bootm line issue is the longing for intimacy BOTH of you want but cannot express. You said your therapist stated you had some intimacy avoidance behavior. It seems he does too (by focusing on the kids).
Schnarch talks about this as a two-choice dilemma. The woman (in this case, your husband) is resentful for a whole basket of reasons, to the point of not wanting sex any longer. She does not want to want her H, but she wants him to want her. Because of her childhood, in which this particular woman’s mother continually failed to do things for her, this woman has now taken on her mother’s behavior. Schnarch says “But perhaps the most powerful fusion is the hardest to see: the only way Audrey could connect with her mother was on the receiving end of Mom’s sadism” (p. 301). So she learns to not want her husband as she learned to not want her mother. But as an adult, she is now the perpetrator, when as a child she was the victim.
Perhaps it is your husband who best fits this description, rather than you. You tried to get his attention, finally resorting to an affair. But you have a weakness in you that you need this attention is the first place. And because you do, you are only too willing to belong to someone, anyone, and put up with certain levels of abuse, much as the Stockholm Syndrome describes.
I thought so, too, and may explain why people stay in R's that are not actually abusive, but where their partner is unresponsive, unkind, insulting, withdrawn, and unaffectionate.
you sleeping on the couch and your S5 sleeping in bed with your H....VERY bad training. It is unaccpetable....What has your H said about this? He surely knows that he is modeling a weird thing to your son.
Some time ago, my SIL told me that my S5, sounding surprised, said 'Your mommy and daddy sleep together?' When I told H this, he said he had no problems with his son saying this. When I incredulously asked 'How can you *not* have a problem with that?!' he replied 'It's better than the alternative. Which do you think is better, separating where the kids can't have access to us whenever they want or for us to sleep in separate beds? Which is more harmful?' At the time, allowing me back in the bed wasn't even an option. He truly doesn't seem to get it that we can end this at any time and move forward. He has said things like 'Oh, and wouldn't that just be so convenient for you? You cheat on your H, and life just continues on'.
An amazing motivator has been...do I want my kids to go through a difficult M? Then I gotta change...I have to work it out....to show them how to have a good marriage.
There's just only so much one person can do before it becomes necessary for the other person to participate in a meaningful way. It's that time. I want my children to see a good M. I just feel torn because this M doesn't seem to be going anywhere all that great and it's so difficult to imagine a M to anyone else because the circumstances are strained from the very beginning. Blending families, exes to deal with, old memories that the other person wasn't a part of, that person will never be the real father of my kids. There is so much that is not ideal about a second M that it takes an act of God to make it. I want to make *this* M good, but I don't know how long I'm supposed to wait.
Your son will do the same thing to his wife that he sees his dad do to you...unless something changes.
This was actually a big motivator for me back when H's attitude toward me was really affecting our son. There were times when my son would not acknowledge me when I greeted him and H refused to say a word about it. It was horrible. To H's credit, he has been much better about that kind of stuff. He'll tell S5 "Did you tell Mommy about..." or "Show Mommy what you did/got today..." and if S5 says something that isn't nice H will tell him that it wasn't nice. So, that has gotten better thank god.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
There's just only so much one person can do before it becomes necessary for the other person to participate in a meaningful way. . .I want to make *this* M good, but I don't know how long I'm supposed to wait.
Holy Smokes Heather! Just when I was beginning to think that my sitch had nothing in common with yours and maybe I should delete it from my favorites, you post this!!! I couldn't have stated my feelings about my sitch better myself. Even tho' I believe my W is in the throws of a MLC and we are separated 18 months today, (Happy Anniversary to us!) I still find insight from your thread.
I haven't posted to you b/c I haven't had anything constructive to say. I still keep up with your sitch and pray for you. Take care.
I wasn’t meaning that I want to punish H for his affair, because I don’t. When it all first came out I was outraged and plotted all kinds of revenge but I learned a lot by coming to these boards and I was able to see in what ways I had let our R drift into a position where it was likely he would be tempted. I also realised that there was no way forward unless I forgave him. I read Michele’s article “Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself” and made my peace with what had happened. The reason I brought it up is that it seems to me that the dynamic between the two of you is similar to the dynamic between me and my H. What I was trying to get to Heather is that I feel if your role with your H was reversed and it had been he who had had the A then I am guessing you would have forgiven him. In an R where the H is controlling the way yours and mine both are, then it is more likely that the W will forgive the H and more likely that the H will continue to punish the W. I can well imagine that if I had had an A my H would not have forgiven me.
The article Lil posted about Stockholm syndrome was really interesting to me the setup she describes does parallel what happened between H and I when we got together. It also parallels my R with my first BF I am clearly set up by my FOO for this. Weirdly enough I now recognise that first-BF was my Dad (in disguise LOL) and H is my mum! There is no physical abuse in our relationship I hasten to add but it is the mind-bending way he manages to control what I do, and the way I tend to avoid "trouble" that shows how this description fits.
Heather the reason I asked whether H made you feel very special is because my first BF was like this. A completely obnoxious idiot who everyone but me detested, and I stayed with him because he made me feel uniquely privileged to have his attention. It is a device used by these type of people to control you. They turn on the charm, and then snatch it away when you displease them. In my (completely amateur) opinion your H is either Narcissistic or Borderline personality. I would urge you to get hold of any reading matter you can on these subjects especially the ones that tell you how best to deal with these types if you wish to continue the R. Some of the ones I have read are “Emotional Blackmail” by Susan Forward, "Why is it Always about You" by Sandy Hotchkiss , and "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger & James Paul Shirley. These three mainly deal with how to deal with borderlines and narcissists given that you are likely to continue in a relationship with one. You don’t have to consider your H to actually have a personality disorder to find some of the tips and techniques about protecting your own integrity and speaking to someone in a manner which doesn’t draw you into a pointless row, to be useful.
I don’t really know what to say about H sleeping in the bed with S5 and not with you. It is clearly wrong and unhealthy. Your H is using his son as an emotional crutch and that is not healthy for either of them. He is elevating S5 to a higher status position within the family than is his due and that will have a knock on effect to the way your son sees himself. He is in a position of too much power for a little boy. I think you have a case for saying this is wrong but I think you won’t be able to convince H by yourself that he should not be sleeping with S5 instead of you. I really think you need some professional help on this.
take care
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
He has said things like 'Oh, and wouldn't that just be so convenient for you? You cheat on your H, and life just continues on'.
There is something your H wants you to figure out. This is the second time you have made mention of a remark made in this same vein. It also ties right in with my comment about you
Quote: I think you are very adept at, and used to, getting what you want-- in most cases
Im not gonna spell it out for you. That doesnt give you the emotional awareness you need to make a success of this permanantly.
I can tell you havent gotten it yet. because of this---> I don't know how long I'm supposed to wait.
however your 180's are working... ----> To H's credit, he has been much better about that kind of stuff.
here is another hint.
Quote: I guess I've always believed that a person can accomplish whatever they set out to do. ..... I work hard and I believe that hard work pays off. Good attitude. Your M will be a succes with that attitude.
"There were times when my son would not acknowledge me when I greeted him and H refused to say a word about it. It was horrible. To H's credit, he has been much better about that kind of stuff. He'll tell S5 "Did you tell Mommy about..." or "Show Mommy what you did/got today..." and if S5 says something that isn't nice H will tell him that it wasn't nice. So, that has gotten better thank god."
Point is that it has improved! So some things have changed which shows your husband's desire for it to change.
You said that your husband said,
he replied 'It's better than the alternative. Which do you think is better, separating where the kids can't have access to us whenever they want or for us to sleep in separate beds? Which is more harmful?'
This sounds like a lot of hurt to me. From his POV he feels like ending the marriage but because of his love for your son is sticking it out. May not be doing it in the best way...but it is admirable that he wants to do best for his S.
What do you have in your lives to help you over the pain of the affair. Most people unless they have some type of counseling, or something to walk them through steps ie. church group or like....most don't know how to deal with it successfully to where the root of the pain is gone. Have either of you done anything along those lines? Has he?
I see some light Heather, even though the R is difficult. I just see pain in him, betrayal. He is also probably trying to hurt you back with all of this. He wants you to know how much what you did hurt him.
You said, "He truly doesn't seem to get it that we can end this at any time and move forward."
He said, "He has said things like 'Oh, and wouldn't that just be so convenient for you? You cheat on your H, and life just continues on'. "
This sounds to me like he perceives that you are mimimizing the betrayal, and from your statement that is what came across too. I know that when a person has done the wrong thing that LAST thing they want to do is stay there and no move on! A person just wants to go forward and forget it all happened.
But for the one who was "betrayed" they want the person who had the affair to feel the pain that it brought to them. I don't know if that is possible unless you have lived in that spot.
Counseling, will help. If you find the right person. Try a DB Coach. REALLY! Laurie is great.
I tried to many avenues to get my M and myself back on track. It wasn't any one thing, it was a combination of many things that all worked together.
And, no matter how much it hurts or seems impossible...there was never the option that "I'll just move on." I had to figure out all that I could do.
Heather, it may seem impossible, but there are absolutely signs of hope in your M. He is there! He wants it to work, he is just very hurt and now extremely resentful.
I apologized for things that I thought I'd apologized for many times over....because my H needed me too. I'd hurt him so deeply. He has had to do the same for me.
These are many thoughts put together for you. See if any stick.
You could have moved on, but you didn't! I agree. Raising your kids with their dad...is the best. Sometimes it can be hell working through it. But it can be done. My marriage isn't perfect...but in comparrison to what it was..we are on our way.
I still keep up with your sitch and pray for you. Take care.
Thanks Jabez. Likewise. Sometimes it is hard to know what to say.
we are separated 18 months today
I'm sorry Jabez. I hope you are doing alright.
In my (completely amateur) opinion your H is either Narcissistic or Borderline personality.
I have looked into that, but ended up disregarding most of it because H is completely non-social. Narcissists, from the descriptions I found, usually like to be the center of attention in social situations, etc and my H is not like that. Some of the stuff fit, but it didn't seem like enough to say "That is H!"
“Emotional Blackmail” by Susan Forward,
I do have this book. And also In Sheep's Clothing although I can't remember the author. I do recognize that H can be manipulative and controlling, mostly using the kids against me. I also realize his talent for turning things back on me and going off on tangents rather than sticking with the point at hand, trying to confuse me, frustrate me, whatever it takes for me to leave him alone and/or come out looking like I'm either crazy or the only one at fault or both.
protecting your own integrity and speaking to someone in a manner which doesn’t draw you into a pointless row
Bingo. I decided whatever personality disorders H may or may not have, it doesn't really matter. What you state above is really what matters. I'm getting better, but usually my temper plays *right* along with H when he tries to draw me into a pointless row as you said. 9 times out of 10 I go because I lose my temper. But on the positive side, I used to go 10 times out of 10
I don’t really know what to say about H sleeping in the bed with S5 and not with you. It is clearly wrong and unhealthy.
This morning I woke up and D3 was also in bed with H and S5. I asked H "Why is D3 in here". He didn't answer. "H, why is D3 in here?" He said "I don't know, she's screaming my name every half hour". That is totally untrue. She called his name once. I know because I wake up, I'm the Mommy and I always wake up. I just didn't run to her because she wanted Daddy. I said "H, you *know* how I feel about this". He said "What do you want me to do?" I said "Not do it anymore." And I left the room. Today I called him and acted as if it hadn't happened. Later tonight I will tell him I would appreciate it if he didn't bring D3 in bed with him again, and in fact, I would like it even more if S5 also stayed in his bed.
He is elevating S5 to a higher status position within the family than is his due and that will have a knock on effect to the way your son sees himself. He is in a position of too much power for a little boy.
I completely 100% agree. And I think our MC does too thank goodness.
There is something your H wants you to figure out. This is the second time you have made mention of a remark made in this same vein.
Well excuse me, but if that's the case, I think that's rather arrogant. I don't sit around trying to solve H's riddles of the day. Sheesh. Ya got something to say, say it. Or else let it go.
Im not gonna spell it out for you.
I'm not gonna waste too much of my time trying to decipher this as you can't read his mind either.
What do you have in your lives to help you over the pain of the affair. Most people unless they have some type of counseling, or something to walk them through steps ie. church group or like....most don't know how to deal with it successfully to where the root of the pain is gone. Have either of you done anything along those lines? Has he?
We are going to MC. Neither of is religious. I try to do things that keep me centered like karate, regular massages and have had a healing touch session. I've also been in IC since I revealed the A. MC is H's first attempt at help as far as I know.
This sounds to me like he perceives that you are mimimizing the betrayal, and from your statement that is what came across too. I know that when a person has done the wrong thing that LAST thing they want to do is stay there and no move on! A person just wants to go forward and forget it all happened.
I do not want or need to minimize what I did. I really don't. Here's the 'but'. It's been two years. I won't be reminded of it every day for the rest of my life either. I truly understand if H can't get past this. Believe me, I do understand that it was a huge betrayal. But the season pass to the funpark 'punish Heather untii she can't take anymore' has got to end. I hereby render the pass null and void. I've got to move forward. I've suggested we bring it into the open, stop treating it like an elephant in the room. Last time I suggested that he said 'we weren't ready yet'. Remember, he just wants to 'be nice to each other', as though accomplishing anything more than that is beyond the scope of his master plan. I think I will bring this up in C. That we need to focus on the A every session until H no longer wants to discuss it. Everything else gets put on hold. Because we *are* there. It's time.
I apologized for things that I thought I'd apologized for many times over....because my H needed me too. I'd hurt him so deeply. He has had to do the same for me.
That's the thing. H doesn't apologize, rarely ever has. I can apologize, I *have* apologized many times. I don't really love him anymore, I want to rebuild that, but until then, how do I pretend? How do I pretend that I am so sorry *to* him because he was always so wonderful? He wasn't wonderful. I am sorry for what I did, there were other options. I should have chose a different option. But something DID need to be done. So what do I say? How can I be genuine?
Thanks for listening.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
