Am I Creating a SSM?

[Stigmata]

NiceGal,

Yes. I don't like being treated like an substitute teacher. Turning my back to write on the chalk board and SOMEONE beans me in the back of the head with a pea shooter.

I turn around...NiceGal sitting there with that o so innocent who me look that only girls can pull off.

"NiceGal, go stand in the corner. And fork it over. It's being confiscated."

No worries. As I've told everyone here before, rhino skin. I'm arrogant enough not to let others' thoughts about me affect me since I don't have any control over them even if I did have a clue what they were.

We can only react to externalizations of OPs internal thoughts about us. What goes on in OPs heads is none of our business.

But I will definitely own up to my ignorance if pointed out...makes things move more quickly/productively IRL:

"Stigmata, you don't have any idea what the F you're talking about."

Stig: [weighing the comment] "You're absolutely right. Upon further reflection, I do not know what the F I am talking about. I will let someone else comment who has a better grasp of the situation. I apologize for wasting everyone's valuable time."
[not unheard of BTW]
Have a nice night, NiceG. If you need me I'll be down in the teachers' lounge blissfully ignorant of the large "kick Me" sign taped to my back, courtesy of one of your churlish classmates.

-Mr. Stigmata- "substitute teacher"

[heatherg]

Holy cow, stop being so melodramatic!

And if I'm coming across as projecting anger about my own R then I will respectfully recuse myself from your thread as that is not helpful and counterproductive.

I do not feel like anyone is projecting anger at all. Except perhaps me about my own situation
Seriously, I am so happy to have input from people who seem to genuinely care about my circumstances. I appreciate every word from every one of you, even in the circumstances where we differ. If nothing else, when we differ, I know there's someone else in the world who thinks like my H. That can be comforting at times believe it or not, because sometimes he really does seem like a one-of-a-kind.

THis post sounds like you have a handle on things and are working with your C.

Wow, what'd I say to give you the impression I had a handle on things?! Thank you, I'm trying very hard. There are so many different paths one can take, so many different reactions one can have and when I think about all the options, I get so overwhelmed. It's too much. Sometimes I just make myself literally sick thinking about all this stuff. I'm not sure of anything I do, so to hear from someone that it seems like I have a handle on things is a big compliment.

when is the last time you and H went out as a couple, with mutual friends? Be cautious of you and him avoiding others because of shame, ego, pride. Get out there together. Have your friends over.

H and I don't have mutual friends, we never have really. I had friends in college and H never wanted to associate with their SOs. H is very judgmental of others and doesn't want or need friends in his life. He'll actually say that. He doesn't like to ask anyone for anything and he doesn't like to have others expecting anything from him.
In the past, if I maintained friendships, it always involved me going without him. That's not really feasible now because of the trust thing.
H and I don't really go out as a couple either. In the past, the drinking thing was a problem because I don't like to be with him when he's drinking and most people drink when they go out. And, because he was drinking so much, he always wanted to stay out later than I and would not consider my feelings when I wanted to leave. If we go anywhere together it is to a movie. And I don't really consider that quality couple time, but it's better than nothing.
For X-mas, H got us ballroom dancing lessons and we were going every Tues for a while. We quit going when we went into a 'bad cycle' and we haven't resumed.
H does not like to do anything without the kids. That was a big problem pre-A. I wanted to get a way, reconnect as a couple. H was adamant against it, telling me I was selfish for not being happy with the family time.

Also understand if kissing on the lips sends flashbacks of you with OM thru your H's mind, in whatever little fantasy he has conjured up

So, what's the solution? That's my problem. I can see his side, I can see my side. His side always takes precedence because I can't 'make' him do anything. And he surely doesn't do things because he know's I'd like him to. If anything, that makes him do the opposite.

Have you tried a direct approach. 'H I am working on repairing the damage caused by the A to our M. How long are you going to punish me, and both of us for it. Its been twwwoooo years now.'

Ask him. 'Do you want to hold on to the negative for the rest of our M?'

H doesn't answer these kinds of questions. In the past, if he's being a jerk, he'll say 'forever' or 'yep' and wave me away. If he's feeling like communicating a little, he'll say he's not punishing me. He'll shut out the word, argue with me that he's not punishing me, etc. It gets us nowhere. And to say "Ok, well I *feel* like you're punishing me", he'll return with "Well, I don't what to tell ya. I'm not. This is just how things are right now".
So, yes, I've tried.

I'm feeling frustrated can you tell? I am irritated and frustrated because of S5's bedtime last night. I'll get into it later, but I'm feeling helpless and hopeless.

When is the last time you apologized, were remorseful, or reassured him? Oh yeah, the other night, with stigs suggestion. Nice going with that by the way. Dont forget though.

Thanks. For the most part, over the last two years, I've been unable to do this. I have found that I'm basically not strong enough to give someone else what they need while they are kicking me at every opportunity. Life in our house has been absolutely miserable and I've had more thoughts of wishing he would die than I have of how sorry I am. I know that is strong. And I don't really want him to die. But there was a time when I did.

Boy Ill have to agree. If a man gets up after I have had sex, the feelings I am going to have afterwards, wont be worth it.

Oh, heck, give it a try and see

Heathers H has managed to convey something to her, that both you and I failed at conveying to our W's. <embarassment, chagrin, a couple self flaggelating whips. ok done>

I missed the inference here. What do you mean?

Heather your 180's are good.

What, specifically, are you referring to?

I would reassure him that what you did could have been soooo much worse;

You can see this because you have been to the worse place. H would derive no reassurance from a statement like this. It's like telling someone who lost their arm that at least they don't have cancer.
But from your position and what it sounds like you've been through, I can see why you think this would be helpful.

You've been doing an incredible job with your -perspective-putting-into over all of this. A less diligent person would let this build resentment in themselves and soon he/she would feel trapped, smothered, and caged in...buried under the thumb of control and suspicion.

Thanks Stigmata. This is only a recent development for me. I've spent a lot of time in the state of mind you refer to, believe me. And it was impossible to drag myself out of that state of mind until H started trying a little. Once he started putting forth some effort, it was easier to see someone that I wanted to try to understand.

So I can see how your As would sort of burst his protected bubble with that kind of history.

Ironically, it burst my bubble too. The innocence is gone and I hate that. I am very disappointed in myself for taking the route I did. Looking back, I think I was trying to invoke change. We were in a stalemate and I could not make H hear me no matter what I said or how I said it. Even D would have been change, at least he would finally have heard me. Unfortunately he only heard things that I wasn't really trying to say. The stuff I wanted him to hear got lost in the commotion. Stupid, stupid.

I'm all for baby steps and emotional coddling to a point but an R is a 50-50 deal. And that means we have to stand up for ourselves from time to time to reset an egregious imbalance in the balance of power.

I agree. That's why it was so impossible for me to be remorseful and sorry and understanding and giving and loving and patient and whatever else while he was....I'm not even going there.

Clicking over to Yahoo Travel now for long overdue flights to Jamaica.

Sigh.

Still not helpful to plow ahead with an indulgence if it really really is bothering your SO IMO.


Well, that seems common sensical now doesn't it? But from H's perspective, what I have done is soooo much worse, who the hell am I to ask anything of him? Pre-A, who knows why he wouldn't hear me, respect me. I'm sure he had his BS reasons.

Dittos on the C sympatico, heather. Good luck Wendesday

Thanks, I was thinking it was today, but the appt is actually next Wed.

I'll post more later. I have to consider my readers with these long posts!!

[HappyGiant]

Heather,
I don't really have any advice for you at this point. I wish I did, I think the whole thing is just nuts and I think your husband is acting childish, immature and his reactions are getting you no where. But you said something that I could relate to:

Ironically, it burst my bubble too. The innocence is gone and I hate that. I am very disappointed in myself for taking the route I did. Looking back, I think I was trying to invoke change. We were in a stalemate and I could not make H hear me no matter what I said or how I said it. Even D would have been change, at least he would finally have heard me. Unfortunately he only heard things that I wasn't really trying to say. The stuff I wanted him to hear got lost in the commotion.

About 6 months ago, I felt the same way. I was constatnly trying to talk to my wife about things I was not happy about. My wife lived in this little bubble where her world was perfect and nothing would get through to her. I talked to her, but nothing changed. I e-mailed, I did everything I could and nothing would sink in. She heard what she wanted to hear, nothing more.

One day, while driving down the road very frsutrated about my inability to communicate, the thought crossed my mind "Man, you are going to have to have an affair.. that's the only way you'll ever get her attention". I quickly dismissed the thought. That was a terrible thing to think. After all, I am a moral guy. I am very religious, I am very strong in my faith, I have always srtived to be "just a great guy" that everyone talks about. "Good guys" don't have thoughts like that. And so I dismissed it.

But after all the sexual issues I was having with my wife, in all the lonliness I was feeling as I couldn't communicate about anything successfully, nor have any of my needs fulfilled, when someone came to me a few weeks later, an atractive woman, who actually wanted ME, who wanted to be touched by ME... I folded easily.

I didn't go through with a full affair. I never had sex with the woman, but I did way more than a married, religious guy should have done. I broke things off after one encounter and confessed to our clergy and to my wife. Im other words, I did just enough so that I would have a big enough bomb to drop to get my wife's attention, but no so big that it would permanantly ruin the marriage.

But the damage has been bad enough.. I ruined all my trust I had worked years to build. I can't go anywhere without checking in. I get home even 10 minutes late from work and I am busted. And every time I think I am finally making progress, I get pushed back down. The lesson this week: my honesty doesn't matter, I can be the world'd most honest guy and tell my wife everyhting, but if she doesn't BELIEVE that I am being honest... it's all worth nothing. Honesty is in the eyes of the beholder, not in what is really true.

Now, I didn't get kicked out of our bed. She still does talk to me in friendly terms (usually), but no longer having her trust me hurts. It hurts like crazy. Thinking back, I can't even believe I was capable to do what I did. It is soooo not like me. I feel so ashamed that I decided to drop the bomb that I did. I am incredibly mad at myself. But I just keep trying to move forward.

My actions now have had pros and cons. Cons are that I built a giant wall of distrust in my wife, who already had major trust issues with everyone else she has ever known. I through a huge wrench in oour marriage and I was almost kicked out of our church as this kind of behavior is TOTALLY against the rules.. But on the "pro" side.. My wife now actively works to help with housework (I used to do it all so she could relax), she cooks (again, I used to do it all) and she is working to be more involved with the family (she used to eat dinner in her room alone so she could watch tv while eating) now we actually have a family dinner at the table. The only thing she still refuses to work on is anything invloving sex or intimacy. That's been that way for years, though, not just since the incident.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that, from the way I see it, we have some similarities. We both may have gone into an affair type of relationship for similar reasons, and we have both felt some of the same kinds of aftermath. Yours has just been far more severe and much longer. I feel for ya. I think it is just terrible. So hang in there as you work to decide what is right for your future.

[Lillieperl]

Happy wrote

she used to eat dinner in her room alone so she could watch tv while eating

Happy, the more details you fill in about your M, the more alarmed I am... What is UP with your W-- I mean, before the A that wasn't an A? Did she want to be part of the family? She sounds like a grumpy, non-communicative teenager.

[haphazard]

Hi Heather,

H and I don't have mutual friends, we never have really. I had friends in college and H never wanted to associate with their SOs. H is very judgmental of others and doesn't want or need friends in his life. He'll actually say that. He doesn't like to ask anyone for anything and he doesn't like to have others expecting anything from him.

WHOA! He seriously has trust issues, and it didn't begin with you. If he is unable to trust other people to the extent that he doesn't *want* friends then he clearly has some bad issues. I think I can now see why he is acting the way he is over your EAs, he allowed himself to get close to you - by the sounds of it the ONE person he allowed himself to do that with and you let him down. You guys got together really young, so it sounds to me like here was this guy who felt he could do without friends, when all of a sudden his hormones kicked in and he realised he couldn't do without sex. So he had to compromise his *principles* to allow you into his life - and get sex. And that seems like what he is doing now, just getting sex but not wanting to be friends with you.

The stuff about the kids is just pure emotional blackmail to keep you where he wants you.

My ex-BF of 7 years had some similarities to your H, he got rid of all my friends basically by behaving obnoxiously while they were around so it got so I couldn't invite anyone over or go out in a foursome because he would just be too embarrassing. I didn't get it at the time, but of course I realised almost as soon as the R was over that it was a jealousy thing, and a control thing. He didn't want to share me with anyone (including my family). When you first got together with your H did he make you feel incredibly special? Like you were this truly unique person and like you were the only one in the world who could understand him? Just asking

You say you can't have friends now because of the trust thing, but why couldn't you invite someone over where he can see for himself that you are just hanging out and not doing anything you shouldn't. You need friends in this situation Heather, cyber-friends are good but you need some RL ones too. You need someone around who can give you a reality check.

I feel for you I really do Heather, and I get the feeling that others here do too. What I don't get is why he gets to punish you for 2 years over your A and my H got to be forgiven straight off the bat The problem I have found with the bb is that the people here are working their azzes off for the M and db preaches all kinds of stuff like if you change they'll change, and sometimes it feels like we are getting short-change. We are constantly damping down our true feels in order to *save the M* and it starts to feel like we are just letting the other S have it all their own way.

I think it is time now you are in MC to start seeing some action on his side, you have done a hell of a lot of work Heather and you are going to have to do a hell of a lot more, but he needs to buy into the idea that he's got to do something too.

take care

Fran

[heatherg]

Both of you are on the edge right now. Before any progress can be made, I believe you both need to lower the emotional levels, get a feeling of security, find a little comfort so you have something to hang on to and move forward. If you two were enmeshed before, then I say go back to being enmeshed again, though only on a temporary basis.

That makes sense. I think we are sort of doing that, we are getting more comfortable and secure with the R. My problem is that I start to talk myself out of confronting issues. I think I have some ideas on how to handle this, primarily learning how to state things without anger. I am very quick to anger instead of showing the underlying feeling. I think if I can improve my communication skills, I won't be so threatening to H and then it won't feel like I'm 'asking for trouble' to bring up difficult issues.

Tell him WHATEVER he needs to hear to settle his anger with you. Have you read over my thread on Femininity and Dr. Schlessinger? There is a lot of talk on the male point of view and what men need from women. It is all to help cover their insecurities, which may be dysfunctional, but meting their needs can be the sedative they need to clear their emotions. So I say give him all the support you can. What has he said that he wants from you in order for him to feel better? Have you done this?


No, I haven't read that thread, but I will. I don't know if I've said everything he needs to hear. I doubt it. Even though it's been two years, we're just now starting to treat each other with the kind of respect that allows good communication and true feelings. He hasn't said what he needs, except that he wants me to be sorry *to* him. He knows I'm sorry in general, sorry to myself for betraying my own values, sorry to our families, etc, but overall he seems to think that I still feel he deserved it on some level or something.

I don’t think he is going to counseling with the intention of learning how he contributed to your affair. He wants you to fully understand how you hurt and betrayed him. In short, I think he still needs validation of his pain and still feels some need for revenge.

You're probably exactly right with this.

Also, he is keeping score in his head. He may well know what he did wrong before the affair, but he knows what you did wrong then too. On that score I would guess he counts you two even. Add to that the big negative points of the affair, and he sees that you have sooooo much to make up for.

You *are* exactly right with this. He has said as much.

When you disclose to him everything you did, “how many times a kiss was exchanged,” you probably aren’t helping the situation any. He is visualizing the affair and such detail just helps his visualization. If that somehow helped him work through his anger, then fine. But it doesn’t seem to be doing that. Tell him you’ve disclosed everything already and do not want to relive it. Tell him to do the same.

H hasn't asked for details since the night I revealed the A to him. When I said that, I only meant that I answered all questions he asked that night openly and honestly without holding back.

Are you apologies coming across to him as true remorse, load with compassion for him and what he has had to endure, or do they come across as justification for why you had the affair? A conditional apology is not an apology.

In the beginning my apologies were sincere, he acknowledges that. But as time went on, his behavior and treatment of me became more severe than the A itself. I found it impossible to feel remorse during that time. I simply just hated him.

Have you tried to push the matter of intimacy some, gently “forcing” yourself on him to have sex?

Sex isn't the problem, it's more the intimacy/kissing that seems to be a problem for him.

If the husband leaves as asked, the wife gets mad. What she really wants is for the husband to try harder, endure a certain amount of rebuke to satisfy her anger, but stay with her to show her how much he cares. Why wouldn’t this same principal apply to you and your H?


This is an interesting viewpoint. I think it applies to a couple different areas in my R with H because all the while he has been saying he doesn't care if I stay or go, he responds very positively to me talking about the future and anything that refers to a commitment on my part to stay.

You mention to Chromo that you didn’t want to be too aggressive with getting back into bed. You wanted him to take the initiative....but for right now, you need to get this thing moving.

There was a time when I tried this and it was a horrible experience. I just kind of walked away from that thinking, ok it needs to be on his time frame not mine. Maybe now that he has dropped a 'hint' that it isn't that big of a deal anymore, I should try to take the initiative again? Do you think that was his way of creating an 'out' for this situation without him having to 'back down' from his stance? Do you think he actually *wants* me to take the initiative?

The goods news, if you read Schnarch, is that you are both enduring this pain because each of you mean so much to each other. If you did not, both of you would have left.

Or that our kids mean so much to us I think is the more likely answer.

Why don’t you just come out and say what you truly want – to have a happy, loving marriage with your H and to spend the rest of your life with him and no one else, that you are committed to seeing this through and making it work.

I really have said that. In counseling I also told him that I am fed up, but at any point, if he tells me he is ready and willing to try, I am totally there.

In summary, I think you should:
• Be direct with him on how much you have endured over the past two years
• Tell him how much pain you have suffered and how committed you are to the marriage
• Let him know that before the affair you were in denial about your actions and lack of validation for him
• Push out of your comfort zone to show him how attractive he is to you. Make him feel What you are doing is way more than you may ever have given to the other man (he is making mental comparisons on your response to him vs OM)
• Emphasize the logic of Schnarch’s theory
• Set a boundary for his accountability in the current situation. Let him know that in spite of your commitment to him, you have your limits on what you can endure, and the time is now for him to get off his pity pot!


I will consider every word you've said! Thank you.

[Cobra]

Heather,

Or that our kids mean so much to us I think is the more likely answer.

I want to focus on this one response, since it could embody a lot of what I see as the problem (and maybe I am projecting because I also see it as a problem in my marriage). Your answer could be true. But it could also not be true. What is best for the kids may not necessarily mean staying in the marriage, but staying in a happy marriage is best for them.

What I sense (and I may be wrong) is that you seem to have convinced yourself that you are staying for the kids, and he too. That means you are putting the kids over the marriage, and in your situation (and mine) this does not help the relationship. It also allows you to dodge the real issue, and that is intimacy. You are hiding behind your kids, reserving your true vulnerability for them and not your husband. He is no dummy. He knows this fully well.

He is also in a Catch 22, which I think may be a subconscious tactic by you to maintain some level of control. If he questions your commitment to the kids, that you should be putting him first, he knows you will not react well. It is common knowledge that mothers put their kids first, right? So instead he keeps quite and also focuses on the kids. Who else can he focus on?

Even though he may be guilty of dodging the real question, which I think is intimacy, you have also placed him there too. He can’t really focus on you, because doing so means putting you above the kids, and he knows that is not a position which you will tolerate. But putting the kids first precludes him from giving you what you really want.

Therefore both of you dodge the real issue, which is the pain of not being first in each other’s eyes. But the advice given on this board and in all the books as that getting your sense of self from your spouse is enmeshment, and that is bad. We are to make the “leap” to differentiation by suddenly changing our behavior. This may be the right thing to do intellectually, but our emotions get tangled up. It hurts. We become fearful and we sabotage our own efforts. We backslide.

The problem I see is that this “leap” is sometimes too big to make. I think (and this is just my personal opinion) that sometimes couples are so enmeshed and dysfunctional that in order to move forward, we first must become comfortable and secure again. That means re-enmeshing. But doing so with an understanding of what we are doing, then slowly differentiating at a pace we can tolerate. Too quick differentiation can cause such a strong reaction in our spouse that the backslide ends up going right off the cliff.

When I suggested to you to do the things I did, I knew fully well that you trying to appease him was not what a counselor would say you should do. It is re-enmeshing. But you two are stuck. He is not here to learn what he must do (and he is burying plenty of his own issues). So it falls on your shoulders to get things moving. Then you can slowly move toward a more traditional differentiation strategy. Again, this is just my opinion.

[heatherg]

What is best for the kids may not necessarily mean staying in the marriage, but staying in a happy marriage is best for them.

Well, picking the lesser of two evils was always H's response. At least if we stayed together and were civil, we could hold their world together. A happy M would be ideal, but a happy family would be second best.

It also allows you to dodge the real issue, and that is intimacy.

Honestly, intimacy had never occurred to me as the real issue. And actually, the MC mentioned it to me before she ever met H, during my individual session with her. She said the behaviors I describe in him are representative of someone who avoids intimacy. I forgot about that.

He is also in a Catch 22, which I think may be a subconscious tactic by you to maintain some level of control. If he questions your commitment to the kids, that you should be putting him first, he knows you will not react well.

This is where you start to go wrong and are maybe projecting as you suggested because he is actually the one that questions *my* level of commitment to the kids, not the other way around. IMO, he is too focused on the kids, S5 in particular, wanting to be his best friend and wanting S5 to be his little protege having all the toys and experiences that he craved as a boy but never got. I am the one that would love to be put first. But how can one ask for such a thing in a M??? How does a mother look at her H and say "Geez, I wish I was number one in your life...". He says that is incredibly selfish of me and I can't help but feel he's right. S5 even sleeps in our bed with H...while I am out on the couch. I think H would rather do just about anything with S5 than do anything with me.

Even though he may be guilty of dodging the real question, which I think is intimacy, you have also placed him there too. He can’t really focus on you, because doing so means putting you above the kids, and he knows that is not a position which you will tolerate. But putting the kids first precludes him from giving you what you really want.

All wrong, based on incorrect assumptions.

What do you actually mean when you say 'enmeshed'?

[heatherg]

HappyGiant:
Thanks for stopping by. It is comforting to find similarities in others isn't it? This is definitely a difficult journey. This board has helped tremendously, posting has helped me get a grip on things and helped me get better perspective.
It's a good thing that you can see 'pros' to the A. I can tell you wish the pros would have come around some other way. I am not to the point yet where I see any pros. Everything is worse.

Haphazard:
You guys got together really young, so it sounds to me like here was this guy who felt he could do without friends, when all of a sudden his hormones kicked in and he realised he couldn't do without sex. So he had to compromise his *principles* to allow you into his life - and get sex. And that seems like what he is doing now, just getting sex but not wanting to be friends with you.


Doesn't sound very promising when you put it that way When I think about it in terms of this is the way H has always been, that these characteristics aren't borne of the A....well, I get very discouraged because I feel lonely and maybe I will always feel lonely if I stay with H.

The stuff about the kids is just pure emotional blackmail to keep you where he wants you.


On some level, I know this. But I still believe it.

When you first got together with your H did he make you feel incredibly special? Like you were this truly unique person and like you were the only one in the world who could understand him?

Yes, he made me feel very, very special. And if I did something he didn't like.....he would take that away and ignore me or not contact me for days or act disgusted with me. I have done more groveling that I care to remember. Over absolutely silly things. Like getting a tiny gold ring in my pinky nail at my nail tech's suggestion without asking him first. Or buying a leather coat that I knew he didn't like. But when he was happy with me, I felt like no one could ever love me like he did. I don't recall ever feeling like I was the only person who could ever understand him. If anything, I felt more surprised that he wanted to spend time with me or that he liked me. I never felt worthy, so I never really felt enough on the same level as to 'understand him'. I believed he was just so much better than me in so many ways.
Having grown up into a very confident and capable woman, I still feel protective of the girl I used to be. I sometimes want to be angry with H now for how he treated me then because I never had the nerve to be angry with him or stand up to him back then.

What I don't get is why he gets to punish you for 2 years over your A and my H got to be forgiven straight off the bat

The way you word that scares me Fran. You indicate that if you could 'punish' your H, you would. That's not a good road for either you or your H. Take the high road Fran. You don't need to treat someone the way my H has treated me in order to heal....I have lost so much respect for him. And, in all honesty, it takes the focus off of what the other partner did wrong, i.e. the A. Because it then becomes all about you and all the terrible and punishing things that are happening.
People would probably not feel for me nearly as much if my H was being cooperative and forgiving. People feel for me only because my H is being a schmuck. If he wasn't being such a schmuck, then people would focus more on what a schmuck I was for doing what I did. kwim?
And the answer to your question is probably because the person being punished toleratees it. You obviously know that if you push your H and try to dole out any punishing behavior, he won't hang around for it. H knows I will because I have. I've allowed it to happen because I've been too paralyzed by fear of ruining everyone's lives even more than I already have by leaving. So I stay. And I endure. And I fume. It's no good.

[Lillieperl]

Heather, You (and others) might find some helpful points in this article-- or I suppose it's possible that you may be grossly offended...your comments about your H getting upset when you had your fingernail decorated without his permission made me think of this article. It is insanely long, but very interesting.

The Stockholm Syndrome is an extreme situation, but I saw some elements of my own relationship here, especially looking for small kindnesses, and the depth of my investment perhaps creating more loyalty than is warranted.
________________________________

Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser
By Joseph M. Carver, PhD
Clinical Psychologist

Dr. Carver has thirty years of clinical experience in a variety of settings including inpatient, outpatient, private practice, state hospitals, child-protective agencies, community mental health centers, neuro-rehabilitation, and now juvenile correctional facilities. He is currently in private practice and the Psychology Supervisor at Ohio River Valley Juvenile Correctional Facility.


People are often amazed at their own psychological conditions and reactions. Those with depression are stunned when they remember they've thought of killing themselves. Patients recovering from severe psychiatric disturbances are often shocked as they remember their symptoms and behavior during the episode. A patient with Bipolar Disorder recently told me "I can't believe I thought I could change the weather through mental telepathy!" A common reaction is "I can't believe I did that!"

In clinical practice, some of the most surprised and shocked individuals are those who have been involved in controlling and abusive relationships. When the relationship ends, they offer comments such as "I know what he's done to me, but I still love him", "I don't know why, but I want him back", or "I know it sounds crazy, but I miss her". Recently I've heard "This doesn't make sense. He's got a new girlfriend and he's abusing her too…but I'm jealous!" Friends and relatives are even more amazed and shocked when they hear these comments or witness their loved one returning to an abusive relationship. While the situation doesn't make sense from a social standpoint, does it make sense from a psychological viewpoint? The answer is - Yes!

On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th.

After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude considering they were threatened, abused, and feared for their lives for over five days. In their media interviews, it was clear that they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages had begun to feel the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors.

While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as:

.Abused Children
.Battered/Abused Women
.Prisoners of War
.Cult Members
.Incest Victims
.Criminal Hostage Situations
.Concentration Camp Prisoners
.Controlling/Intimidating Relationships

In the final analysis, emotionally bonding with an abuser is actually a strategy for survival for victims of abuse and intimidation. The "Stockholm Syndrome" reaction in hostage and/or abuse situations is so well recognized at this time that police hostage negotiators no longer view it as unusual. In fact, it is often encouraged in crime situations as it improves the chances for survival of the hostages. On the down side, it also assures that the hostages experiencing "Stockholm Syndrome" will not be very cooperative during rescue or criminal prosecution. Local law enforcement personnel have long recognized this syndrome with battered women who fail to press charges, bail their battering husband/boyfriend out of jail, and even physically attack police officers when they arrive to rescue them from a violent assault.

Stockholm Syndrome (SS) can also be found in family, romantic, and interpersonal relationships. The abuser may be a husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, father or mother, or any other role in which the abuser is in a position of control or authority.

It's important to understand the components of Stockholm Syndrome as they relate to abusive and controlling relationships. Once the syndrome is understood, it's easier to understand why victims support, love, and even defend their abusers and controllers.

Every syndrome has symptoms or behaviors and Stockholm Syndrome is no exception. While a clear-cut list has not been established due to varying opinions by researchers and experts, several of these features will be present:

.Positive feelings by the victim toward the abuser/controller
.Negative feelings by the victim toward family, friends, or authorities trying to rescue/support them or win their release
.Support of the abuser's reasons and behaviors
.Positive feelings by the abuser toward the victim
.Supportive behaviors by the victim, at times helping the abuser
.Inability to engage in behaviors that may assist in their release or detachment

Stockholm Syndrome doesn't occur in every hostage or abusive situation. In another bank robbery involving hostages, after terrorizing patrons and employees for many hours, a police sharpshooter shot and wounded the terrorizing bank robber. After he hit the floor, two women picked him up and physically held him up to the window for another shot. As you can see, the length of time one is exposed to abuse/control and other factors are certainly involved.

It has been found that four situations or conditions are present that serve as a foundation for the development of Stockholm Syndrome. These four situations can be found in hostage, severe abuse, and abusive relationships:

.The presence of a perceived threat to one's physical or psychological survival and the belief that the abuser would carry out the threat
.The presence of a perceived small kindness from the abuser to the victim
.Isolation from perspectives other than those of the abuser
.The perceived inability to escape the situation
.By considering each situation we can understand how Stockholm Syndrome develops in romantic relationships as well as criminal/hostage situations. Looking at each situation:

Perceived threat to one's physical/psychological survival
The perception of threat can be formed by direct, indirect, or witnessed methods. Criminal or antisocial partners can directly threaten your life or the life of friends and family. Their history of violence leads us to believe that the captor/controller will carry out the threat in a direct manner if we fail to comply with their demands. The abuser assures us that only our cooperation keeps our loved ones safe.

Indirectly, the abuser/controller offers subtle threats that you will never leave them or have another partner, reminding you that people in the past have paid dearly for not following their wishes. Hints are often offered such as "I know people who can make others disappear". Indirect threats also come from the stories told by the abuser or controller – how they obtained revenge on those who have crossed them in the past. These stories of revenge are told to remind the victim that revenge is possible if they leave.

Witnessing violence or aggression is also a perceived threat. Witnessing a violent temper directed at a television set, others on the highway, or a third party clearly sends us the message that we could be the next target for violence. Witnessing the thoughts and attitudes of the abuser/controller is threatening and intimidating, knowing that we will be the target of those thoughts in the future.

The "Small Kindness" Perception

In threatening and survival situations, we look for evidence of hope – a small sign that the situation may improve. When an abuser/controller shows the victim some small kindness, even though it is to the abusers benefit as well, the victim interprets that small kindness as a positive trait of the captor. In criminal/war hostage situations, letting the victim live is often enough. Small behaviors, such as allowing a bathroom visit or providing food/water, are enough to strengthen the Stockholm Syndrome in criminal hostage events.

In relationships with abusers, a birthday card, a gift (usually provided after a period of abuse), or a special treat are interpreted as not only positive, but evidence that the abuser is not "all bad" and may at some time correct his/her behavior. Abusers and controllers are often given positive credit for not abusing their partner, when the partner would have normally been subjected to verbal or physical abuse in a certain situation. An aggressive and jealous partner may normally become intimidating or abusive in certain social situations, as when an opposite-sex coworker waves in a crowd. After seeing the wave, the victim expects to be verbally battered and when it doesn't happen, that "small kindness" is interpreted as a positive sign.

Similar to the small kindness perception is the perception of a "soft side". During the relationship, the abuser/controller may share information about their past – how they were mistreated, abused, neglected, or wronged. The victim begins to feel the abuser/controller may be capable of fixing their behavior or worse yet, that they (abuser) may also be a "victim". Sympathy may develop toward the abuser and we often hear the victim of Stockholm Syndrome defending their abuser with "I know he fractured my jaw and ribs…but he's troubled. He had a rough childhood!" Losers and abusers may admit they need psychiatric help or acknowledge they are mentally disturbed, however, it's almost always after they have already abused or intimidated the victim. The admission is a way of denying responsibility for the abuse. In truth, personality disorders and criminals have learned over the years that personal responsibility for their violent/abusive behaviors can be minimized and even denied by blaming their bad upbringing, abuse as a child, and now - video games. One murderer blamed his crime on eating too much junk food – now known as the "Twinkie Defense". While it may be true that the abuser/controller had a difficult upbringing – showing sympathy for his/her history produces no change in their behavior and in fact, prolongs the length of time you will be abused. While "sad stories" are always included in their apologies – after the abusive/controlling event - their behavior never changes! Keep in mind; once you become hardened to the "sad stories", they will simply try another approach. I know of no victim of abuse or crime who has heard their abuser say "I'm beating (robbing, mugging, etc.) you because my Mom hated me!"

Isolation from Perspectives Other than those of the Captor

In abusive and controlling relationships, the victim has the sense they are always "walking on eggshells" – fearful of saying or doing anything that might prompt a violent/intimidating outburst. For their survival, they begin to see the world through the abuser's perspective. They begin to fix things that might prompt an outburst, act in ways they know makes the abuser happy, or avoid aspects of their own life that may prompt a problem. If we only have a dollar in our pocket, then most of our decisions become financial decisions. If our partner is an abuser or controller, then the majority of our decisions are based on our perception of the abuser's potential reaction. We become preoccupied with the needs, desires, and habits of the abuser/controller.

Taking the abuser's perspective as a survival technique can become so intense that the victim actually develops anger toward those trying to help them. The abuser is already angry and resentful toward anyone who would provide the victim support, typically using multiple methods and manipulations to isolate the victim from others. Any contact the victim has with supportive people in the community is met with accusations, threats, and/or violent outbursts. Victims then turn on their family – fearing family contact will cause additional violence and abuse in the home. At this point, victims curse their parents and friends, tell them not to call and stop interfering, and break off communication with others. Agreeing with the abuser/controller, supportive others are now viewed as "causing trouble" and must be avoided. Many victims threaten their family and friends with restraining orders if they continue to "interfere" or try to help the victim in their situation. On the surface it would appear that they have sided with the abuser/controller. In truth, they are trying to minimize contact situation that might make them a target of additional verbal abuse or intimidation. If a casual phone call from Mom prompts a two-hour temper outburst with threats and accusations – the victim quickly realizes it's safer if Mom stops calling. If simply telling Mom to stop calling doesn't work, for his or her own safety the victim may accuse Mom of attempting to ruin the relationship and demand that she stop calling.

In severe cases of Stockholm Syndrome in relationships, the victim may have difficulty leaving the abuser and may actually feel the abusive situation is their fault. In law enforcement situations, the victim may actually feel the arrest of their partner for physical abuse or battering is their fault. Some women will allow their children to be removed by child protective agencies rather than give up the relationship with their abuser. As they take the perspective of the abuser, the children are at fault – they complained about the situation, they brought the attention of authorities to the home, and they put the adult relationship at risk. Sadly, the children have now become a danger to the victim's safety. For those with Stockholm Syndrome, allowing the children to be removed from the home decreases their victim stress while providing an emotionally and physically safer environment for the children.

Perceived Inability to Escape

As a hostage in a bank robbery, threatened by criminals with guns, it's easy to understand the perceived inability to escape. In romantic relationships, the belief that one can't escape is also very common. Many abusive/controlling relationships feel like till-death-do-us-part relationships – locked together by mutual financial issues/assets, mutual intimate knowledge, or legal situations. Here are some common situations:

Controlling partners have increased the financial obligations/debt in the relationship to the point that neither partner can financially survive on their own. Controllers who sense their partner may be leaving will often purchase a new automobile, later claiming they can't pay alimony or child support due to their large car payments.

The legal ending of a relationship, especially a martial relationship, often creates significant problems. A Controller who has an income that is "under the table" or maintained through legally questionable situations runs the risk of those sources of income being investigated or made public by the divorce/separation. The Controller then becomes more agitated about the possible public exposure of their business arrangements than the loss of the relationship.

The Controller often uses extreme threats including threatening to take the children out of state, threatening to quit their job/business rather than pay alimony/support, threatening public exposure of the victim's personal issues, or assuring the victim they will never have a peaceful life due to nonstop harassment. In severe cases, the Controller may threaten an action that will undercut the victim's support such as "I'll see that you lose your job" or "I'll have your automobile burned".
Controllers often keep the victim locked into the relationship with severe guilt – threatening suicide if the victim leaves. The victim hears "I'll kill myself in front of the children", "I'll set myself on fire in the front yard", or "Our children won't have a father/mother if you leave me!"

In relationships with an abuser or controller, the victim has also experienced a loss of self-esteem, self-confidence, and psychological energy. The victim may feel "burned out" and too depressed to leave. Additionally, abusers and controllers often create a type of dependency by controlling the finances, placing automobiles/homes in their name, and eliminating any assets or resources the victim may use to leave. In clinical practice I've heard "I'd leave but I can't even get money out of the savings account! I don't know the PIN number."

In teens and young adults, victims may be attracted to a controlling individual when they feel inexperienced, insecure, and overwhelmed by a change in their life situation. When parents are going through a divorce, a teen may attach to a controlling individual, feeling the controller may stabilize their life. Freshmen in college may be attracted to controlling individuals who promise to help them survive living away from home on a college campus.

In unhealthy relationships and definitely in Stockholm Syndrome there is a daily preoccupation with "trouble". Trouble is any individual, group, situation, comment, casual glance, or cold meal that may produce a temper tantrum or verbal abuse from the controller or abuser. To survive, "trouble" is to be avoided at all costs. The victim must control situations that produce trouble. That may include avoiding family, friends, co-workers, and anyone who may create "trouble" in the abusive relationship. The victim does not hate family and friends; they are only avoiding "trouble"! The victim also cleans the house, calms the children, scans the mail, avoids certain topics, and anticipates every issue of the controller or abuse in an effort to avoid "trouble". In this situation, children who are noisy become "trouble". Loved ones and friends are sources of "trouble" for the victim who is attempting to avoid verbal or physical aggression.

Stockholm Syndrome in relationships is not uncommon. Law enforcement professionals are painfully aware of the situation – making a domestic dispute one of the high-risk calls during the work hours. Called by neighbors during a spousal abuse incident, the abuser is passive upon arrival of the police, only to find the abused spouse upset and threatening the officers if their abusive partner is arrested for domestic violence. In truth, the victim knows the abuser/controller will retaliate against him/her if 1) they encourage an arrest, 2) they offer statements about the abuse/fight that are deemed disloyal by the abuser, 3) they don't bail them out of jail as quickly as possible, and 4) they don't personally apologize for the situation – as though it was their fault.

Stockholm Syndrome produces an unhealthy bond with the controller and abuser. It is the reason many victims continue to support an abuser after the relationship is over. It's also the reason they continue to see "the good side" of an abusive individual and appear sympathetic to someone who has mentally and sometimes physically abused them.

Is There Something Else Involved?

In a short response – Yes! Throughout history, people have found themselves supporting and participating in life situations that range from abusive to bizarre. In talking to these active and willing participants in bad and bizarre situations, it is clear they have developed feelings and attitudes that support their participation. One way these feelings and thoughts are developed is known as "cognitive dissonance". As you can tell, psychologists have large words and phrases for just about everything.

"Cognitive Dissonance" explains how and why people change their ideas and opinions to support situations that do not appear to be healthy, positive, or normal. In the theory, an individual seeks to reduce information or opinions that make him or her uncomfortable. When we have two sets of cognitions (knowledge, opinion, feelings, input from others, etc.) that are the opposite, the situation becomes emotionally uncomfortable. Even though we might find ourselves in a foolish or difficult situation – few want to admit that fact. Instead, we attempt to reduce the dissonance - the fact that our cognitions don't match, agree, or make sense when combined. "Cognitive Dissonance" can be reduced by adding new cognitions – adding new thoughts and attitudes. Some examples:

.Heavy smokers know smoking causes lung cancer and multiple health risks. To continue smoking, the smoker changes his cognitions (thoughts/feelings) such as 1) "I'm smoking less than ten years ago", 2) "I'm smoking low-tar cigarettes", 3) "Those statistics are made up by the cancer industry conspiracy", or 4) "Something's got to get you anyway!" These new cognitions/attitudes allow them to keep smoking and actually begin blaming restaurants for being unfair.
.You purchase a $40,000.00 Sport Utility Vehicle that gets 8 miles a gallon. You justify the expense and related issues with 1) "It's great on trips (you take one trip per year)", 2) "I can use it to haul stuff (one coffee table in 12 months), and 3) "You can carry a lot of people in it (95% of your trips are driver-only)."
.Your husband/boyfriend becomes abusive and assaultive. You can't leave due to the finances, children, or other factors. Through cognitive dissonance, you begin telling yourself "He only hits me open-handed" and "He's had a lot of stress at work."

Leon Festinger first coined "Cognitive Dissonance". He had observed a cult (1956) in which members gave up their homes, incomes, and jobs to work for the cult. This cult believed in messages from outer space that predicted the day the world would end by a flood. As cult members and firm believers, they believed they would be saved by flying saucers at the appointed time. As they gathered and waited to be taken by flying saucers at the specified time, the end-of-the-world came and went. No flood and no flying saucer! Rather than believing they were foolish after all that personal and emotional investment – they decided their beliefs had actually saved the world from the flood and they became firmer in their beliefs after the failure of the prophecy. The moral – the more you invest (income, job, home, time, effort, etc.) the stronger your need to justify your position. If we invest $5.00 in a raffle ticket, we justify losing with "I'll get them next time". If you invest everything you have, it requires an almost unreasoning belief and unusual attitude to support and justify that investment.

Studies tell us we are more loyal and committed to something that is difficult, uncomfortable, and even humiliating. The initiation rituals of college fraternities, Marine boot camp, and graduate school all produce loyal and committed individuals. Almost any ordeal creates a bonding experience. Every couple, no matter how mismatched, falls in love in the movies after going through a terrorist takeover, being stalked by a killer, being stranded on an island, or being involved in an alien abduction. Investment and an ordeal are ingredients for a strong bonding – even if the bonding is unhealthy. No one bonds or falls in love by being a member of the Automobile Club or a music CD club. Struggling to survive on a deserted island – you bet!

Abusive relationships produce a great amount on unhealthy investment in both parties. In many cases we tend to remain and support the abusive relationship due to our investment in the relationship. Try telling a new Marine that since he or she has survived boot camp, they should now enroll in the National Guard! Several types of investments keep us in the bad relationship:

.Emotional Investment – We've invested so many emotions, cried so much, and worried so much that we feel we must see the relationship through to the finish.
.Social Investment – We've got our pride! To avoid social embarrassment and uncomfortable social situations, we remain in the relationship.
.Family Investments – If children are present in the relationship, decisions regarding the relationship are clouded by the status and needs of the children.
.Financial Investment – In many cases, the controlling and abusive partner has created a complex financial situation. Many victims remain in a bad relationship, waiting for a better financial situation to develop that would make their departure and detachment easier.
.Lifestyle Investment – Many controlling/abusive partners use money or a lifestyle as an investment. Victims in this situation may not want to lose their current lifestyle.
.Intimacy Investment – We often invest emotional and sexual intimacy. Some victims have experienced a destruction of their emotional and/or sexual self-esteem in the unhealthy relationship. The abusing partner may threaten to spread rumors or tell intimate details or secrets. A type of blackmail using intimacy is often found in these situations.

In many cases, it's not simply our feelings for an individual that keeps us in an unhealthy relationship - it's often the amount of investment. Relationships are complex and we often only see the tip of the iceberg in public. For this reason, the most common phrase offered by the victim in defense of their unhealthy relationship is "You just don't understand!"

Combining Two Unhealthy Conditions

The combination of "Stockholm Syndrome" and "cognitive dissonance" produces a victim who firmly believes the relationship is not only acceptable, but also desperately needed for their survival. The victim feels they would mentally collapse if the relationship ended. In long-term relationships, the victims have invested everything and placed "all their eggs in one basket". The relationship now decides their level of self-esteem, self-worth, and emotional health.

For reasons described above, the victim feels family and friends are a threat to the relationship and eventually to their personal health and existence. The more family/friends protest the controlling and abusive nature of the relationship, the more the victim develops cognitive dissonance and becomes defensive. At this point, family and friends become victims of the abusive and controlling individual.

Importantly, both Stockholm Syndrome and cognitive dissonance develop on an involuntary basis. The victim does not purposely invent this attitude. Both develop as an attempt to exist and survive in a threatening and controlling environment and relationship. Despite what we might think, our loved one is not in the unhealthy relationship to irritate, embarrass, or drive us to drink. What might have began as a normal relationship has turned into a controlling and abusive situation. They are trying to survive. Their personality is developing the feelings and thoughts needed to survive the situation and lower their emotional and physical risks. All of us have developed attitudes and feelings that help us accept and survive situations. We have these attitudes/feelings about our jobs, our community, and other aspects of our life. As we have found throughout history, the more dysfunctional the situation, the more dysfunctional our adaptation and thoughts to survive. The victim is engaged in an attempt to survive and make a relationship work. Once they decide it doesn't work and can't be fixed, they will need our support as we patiently await their decision to return to a healthy and positive lifestyle.

[There's more, but I cut it off here.]
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The entire article can be found here:
The Stockholm Syndrome