Am I Creating a SSM?

[heatherg]

2 years after an A might as well be equivalent to, say, 2 months of real time, kwim?

Yes, that makes sense. Unfortunately.

And, yes, sneak in a peck here and there. What that will do. He will tolerate it at first. Then get used to it. Then cease before it becomes too regular/patterned. He will then miss them but not realize it. At which point you resume them at opportune moments, even trying to sneak in a nice full one from time to time.


Just thinking about doing this makes me very nervous. It's such a risk because he's really made it clear that kissing is a major issue for him. And of course, the fear of rejection is pretty big too. Sigh.

I am, however, worried about this continued standoff. Sex with no kissing from him. No sex without kissing from you. Not healthy and a real roadblock.


Well, I've framed it as more 'taking things slow' than 'no sex until you are willing to kiss me'. More along the lines of agreeing with H instead of fighting against him. He is inherently saying that we are not ready to be sleeping in the same bed or kissing, so I am in return saying 'you're right. we should take it slow.' It's sort of a 180 to what I was doing which was being angry and upset about it and fighting it wherever possible. I don't so much feel the need to fight it now that I know there is something H wants from me as well. We'll just take it slow until H is ready. Hopefully he's ready someday. I've also made it very clear to H that I want to have sex with him and that this is difficult, but probably ultimately for the best because I really want the R to work. So, it's best to take things slow.

I know how important it is to her but, tough, I’m not giving it to her. Too bad. Suffer. Just lay there and take what I'm giving to you.

And now you have a glimpse into the feelings that would creep into my head after sex. It's not pretty. It could feel like a total power play on his part sometimes. H doesn't understand why I can say that because he is a very giving lover, I always come first, etc. So if I am enjoying it, how can I say he's using me? Well, like I said, those feelings don't come until after.

Kinda how MB and porn starts to dull the mental intensity over time unless the anty is upped with more and more tittilation.

I never really thought about that. Is that pretty much standard thought? Another reason to be totally against that crap, particularly when it is going on behind the other partner's back. Have a R with pictures (most of which aren't even real, btw) to such a great extent that all of a sudden your W isn't good enough. Just freakin great. Argh.

Interesting thing happened today at lunch with H and the kids. H was talking about 'our' room and he said "Daddy's room, er Mommy and Daddy's room". S5 said 'It's *not* Mommy's room'. H said "All of her stuff is sure in there and she gets dressed in there". S5 said "It's not her room, she doesn't sleep in there".
As they had this discusion about whether or not it was my room too, I just sat there, couldn't look at either one of them. I don't know what to do. These types of situations bring up really, really bad feelings that make it difficult to keep on the 'good track'. I naturally want to pull back, create distance.
Right now, as I type this, S5 is sleeping in 'our' bed with H. And I will sleep on the couch as I do nearly every other night.
I am not having good feelings at all tonight. I'll just leave it at that I guess.

[Stigmata]

Just thinking about doing this makes me very nervous. It's such a risk because he's really made it clear that kissing is a major issue for him. And of course, the fear of rejection is pretty big too. Sigh.

- Heather. I really feel for you about this. Your H's behavior is really starting to irk me. Your emotions; being made to feel "really nervous" about even kissing your own H.WTH?

<grinding teeth>

I wish I could have a man to man with your H on a car ride somewhere. X's mouth was involved in way worse than what you did and no way in hell I'm not gonna at least kiss her after 2 years; otherwise I would have left. Torturing both of us is sadistic/masochistic. IMO your MC needs to just stare at him and bluntly say,

"why won't you kiss your W?"

And,

"do you think punishing her this way is a solution? Why are you even coming to MC?"

Heather. Do not let your fear of rejection keep you from at least trying for a peck here and there. An idea. You hug him. Next time when you hug him, kiss him on his neck. You're face is already right there. I think the more small kisses you can steal the more his walls will start lowering since he realizes he can't whack you/scream at you for stealing a kiss or two on his neck, cheek etc.

Secondly, a fear of rejection would be normal if this were a normal denial on H's part. This isn't. This is very aberrent behavior from ANYONE. Thus you cannot personalize it. "It's not me. It's him. He's not rejecting me; he's punishing me because he's being selfish by wallowing in his anger and resentment."

In other words, Heather, it's all about him.

Kinda how MB and porn starts to dull the mental intensity over time unless the anty is upped with more and more tittilation.

I never really thought about that. Is that pretty much standard thought? Another reason to be totally against that crap, particularly when it is going on behind the other partner's back. Have a R with pictures (most of which aren't even real, btw) to such a great extent that all of a sudden your W isn't good enough. Just freakin great. Argh.

- Well, not standard thought as a rule. Many Ms are fine with the occasional porno...but it usually leads up to excitement for both the H and W/SO. But if he knows his secret enjoyment is bothering you in an area that hits so close to home (your sex issues) he might do well to be sensitive to that until your M issues are resolved and put back on track. Otherwise, if he knows it really upsets you his behavior is more selfish punishment to you.

Interesting thing happened today at lunch with H and the kids. S5 was talking about 'our' room and he said "Daddy's room, er Mommy and Daddy's room". H said 'It's *not* Mommy's room'. S5 said "All of her stuff is sure in there and she gets dressed in there". H said "It's not her room, she doesn't sleep in there".
As they had this discusion about whether or not it was my room too, I just sat there, couldn't look at either one of them. I don't know what to do. These types of situations bring up really, really bad feelings that make it difficult to keep on the 'good track'. I naturally want to pull back, create distance.

- Heather. I want you to read this now that I have swapped H and S5. Do you see how this is a lot worse? Your H was on your side. If he had said what your S5 said do you see how this reads so much worse?

Hang in there, girl. Don't pull away and detach. He's showing cracks in his walls

He is inherently saying that we are not ready to be sleeping in the same bed or kissing, so I am in return saying 'you're right.

- "Inherently" saying? No inherently. Get him to verbalize this to the MC in front of you. And why are you saying/showing he's right?

I would not leave that MC's office until I or MC asks him point blank:

"When will you be ready for your W to sleep in the same bed and to kiss her? This needs to be resolved right now. So let's have a specific timeframe. It's been 2 years already."

Right now, as I type this, S5 is sleeping in 'our' bed with H. And I will sleep on the couch as I do nearly every other night.
I am not having good feelings at all tonight. I'll just leave it at that I guess.

- Have you ever tried to just slide in bed with them while they're sleeping? There are a million things I could think of to get in that bed. "There was a noise outside my window, couldn't sleep. A draft. A light. A scary spider. An animal outside. The couch hurt my back and I wanted to be near someone. I had a bad dream I was all alone in an old haunted house. Etc."

Providing you even had to explain. I know when I'm sleeping I'm not gonna bother to kick someone out of bed and bother my sleep if I'm not pizzed off at them for something. I needs muh beauty rest and as long as you ain't lighting off M80s in the room anything less won't disturb me much.

Yes. Take things slow in the ML department. But that MC better get to the bottom of H's kissing denial.

Your his bride.

The preachers don't say "You may now kis the bride" to the Ms because it's an empty gesture. It's a crucial symbol of your love and H needs to get over it. IMO.

-Stigmata-

[Baltoman]

Hopefully H will now consider what his stance says to his children regarding how marriage should be. This may be the crack that tumbles his walls if he can look past his hurt and see what is right for the R and right for the children. Kids have a way of focusing the mind. I know that nothing my W has said to me has ever caused a physical reaction but I have had the kids say things that have buckled my knees and made me physically dizzy.

[heatherg]

Do not let your fear of rejection keep you from at least trying for a peck here and there. An idea. You hug him. Next time when you hug him, kiss him on his neck.

I am allowed to put my lips anywhere but on his. So I guess I shouldn't say I'm not allowed to kiss H because that perhaps sounds inclusive of everything. I'm not allowed to kiss him on the lips. Friday night, I DID kiss him on the lips though. It was a small peck on th lips, first time. He didn't have a strong reaction, only gave me a look, like 'you know you're not supposed to do that'.

IMO your MC needs to just stare at him and bluntly say,

"why won't you kiss your W?"

And,

"do you think punishing her this way is a solution? Why are you even coming to MC?"

During my individual session with the MC I asked her to take things slow with H and not to push him too hard. H will walk out never to return. Someone has to earn his respect before he will consider what they are saying. So, hopefully soon she can ask him such direct questions.

Heather. I want you to read this now that I have swapped H and S5. Do you see how this is a lot worse? Your H was on your side. If he had said what your S5 said do you see how this reads so much worse?

Maybe you're right. It's just that when I hear these things in a context like the discussion between S5 and H, it becomes apparent to me that I've normalized something that isn't normal at all and then when it's actually said out loud, the situation can't be denied.

And why are you saying/showing he's right?


Because it's a 180. I've read that when you stop arguing with someone and agree with them, they're more likely to change their mind on their own. Same principle as many people employ on the boards when their partner says they want a D. Eventually they learn to stop arguing against it because it gets them nowhere fast.

There are a million things I could think of to get in that bed.

I guess I have been waiting for it to be a R decision. I don't want to trick myself back into my bed because I think the feelings associated with being forced out will never really go away unless I'm actually invited back in. I need it to be a sign of healing as opposed to a scenario I've designed to get what I want.

You may now kis the bride" to the Ms because it's an empty gesture. It's a crucial symbol of your love and H needs to get over it

Look at that from my H's perspective and perhaps it becomes clearer why it's taking so long for him to get over it. Knowing that it is such a crucial symbol, he was very crushed that I could give that away to someone else. Nevertheless, I do agree that there is a time where one must decide that they can either get over it or they can't. Perhaps he hasn't really known the answer for sure and has just been taking one day at a time?

This may be the crack that tumbles his walls if he can look past his hurt and see what is right for the R and right for the children.

I hope you're right. All along though, H has maintained his stance that regardless of how it may be affecting the children that we don't get along like other couples and are sleeping in separate beds, it is not nearly as harmful for them as separating would be. So, either way, I think he sees our situation as the best way things can be right now. I have maintained that the greatest gift that anyone can give to their kids is two parents who love each other and make time for another above all else. Otherwise, anything else a family may build will eventually come crashing down.

[nicegal]

Heather,

I think your response here is good. Remember it is easy for people here on this board to project their own anger about their situation and then just get you all stirred up because situations can be similar.

Keep working on your marriage. THis post sounds like you have a handle on things and are working with your C.

Hugs,
Nicegal

[blackfoot]

I mean, I don't go anywhere outside of work and karate. I haven't been out with friends in a very, very long time. I don't know what more I can do aside from quit karate, which H would like very much. I won't do it

when is the last time you and H went out as a couple, with mutual friends? Be cautious of you and him avoiding others because of shame, ego, pride. Get out there together. Have your friends over.

There is quite a bit of affection.
excellent.

It just seems that unless H can understand how it feels to want something that is out of his reach because of a wall that's been built, he isn't going to 'get it'.

returning a destructive wall with another wall is generally not the best way to handle men. In all likely hood your personalizing of his wall, and assumptions for the reason for it, is in error.

As time went on, it really did start to suck that we would have sex and not only was I not allowed to kiss him, making me feel slightly used

I understand. Also understand if kissing on the lips sends flashbacks of you with OM thru your H's mind, in whatever little fantasy he has conjured up, its not going to be very productive either. I see your H leaving after sex out of fear of vulnerability after intimacy, rather then punishing you.

Have you tried a direct approach. 'H I am working on repairing the damage caused by the A to our M. How long are you going to punish me, and both of us for it. Its been twwwoooo years now.'

Ask him. 'Do you want to hold on to the negative for the rest of our M?'

When is the last time you apologized, were remorseful, or reassured him? Oh yeah, the other night, with stigs suggestion. Nice going with that by the way. Dont forget though.

Sorry, but I disagree. My EA's were wrong, I didn't have any 'rights' and I sure as hell don't have many of those now either. Consequences. And there are consequences to H's poor decisions too.
You are correct, except for the rights part. Its called free will. You justified the things you did somehow. Your H is doing the same. I said it was R damaging.

Try having your man immediately get up and go sleep somewhere else after sex. Those feelings weren't worth the sex.

Boy Ill have to agree. If a man gets up after I have had sex, the feelings I am going to have afterwards, wont be worth it.

H was talking about 'our' room and he said "Daddy's room, er Mommy and Daddy's room". S5 said 'It's *not* Mommy's room'. H said "All of her stuff is sure in there and she gets dressed in there".

Wow this is really positive.

I don't want to trick myself back into my bed because I think the feelings associated with being forced out will never really go away unless I'm actually invited back in. I need it to be a sign of healing as opposed to a scenario I've designed to get what I want.

This makes perfect sense, and you know what you need. You can still do little ice breakers to make his continued use of holding on to old hurts, a injury that only hurts him. When you dont personalize, his rejections will stare him in the face with there ridiculousness.

Is that pretty much standard thought? Another reason to be totally against that crap, particularly when it is going on behind the other partner's back. Have a R with pictures (most of which aren't even real, btw) to such a great extent that all of a sudden your W isn't good enough. Just freakin great. Argh.

Yes he knows they are not real. I seriously doubt that he considers you not good enough. Doesnt jive with the rest of his actions.
Simmer down.
Stigmata. Stop that. (smack) not helpful.
Heathers H has managed to convey something to her, that both you and I failed at conveying to our W's. <embarassment, chagrin, a couple self flaggelating whips. ok done>

Heather your 180's are good. I like your plan of attack. I also like how you are handling the C sessions.


Who me?! Yes. You.
Really though, after such a short time on my thread, what makes you think that? Not relevant.
I guess I've always believed that a person can accomplish whatever they set out to do. ..... I work hard and I believe that hard work pays off.
Good attitude. Your M will be a succes with that attitude.

[Stigmata]

Remember it is easy for people here on this board to project their own anger about their situation and then just get you all stirred up because situations can be similar.

-Hm. A bit of an oblique attribution. Anyone in mind?

Anyhoooo. If no, carry on. If "yes" and we can replace "people" with "Stigmata" then I have regrettably failed as an communicator. It's true, Heather, you heatherg and C know best. And if I'm coming across as projecting anger about my own R then I will respectfully recuse myself from your thread as that is not helpful and counterproductive. I currently harbor zero anger in the context of my R tho. Just trying to give an M perspective of an M who's been there unfortunately.

To clarify in case of tonal confusion. What I said. About having a chat with your H. The message wasn't that I would shout him down, no, no, no. I would reassure him that what you did could have been soooo much worse; and recounted what I had to deal with and how the resentment sinks it's teeth in like a pit bull. Tell him it's all gonna be okay and not to stress over it.

I just see him going down a familiar road and I would really like to see both of you make it and spared of where festering resentment and control leads.

His denying you that business dinner with 2 or 3 other Ms, even though a potential positive for your career. Not happy with you going out with friends. Not happy with you going to karate. The kissing issue. Sleeping alone. You've been doing an incredible job with your -perspective-putting-into over all of this. A less diligent person would let this build resentment in themselves and soon he/she would feel trapped, smothered, and caged in...buried under the thumb of control and suspicion.

But you're smart. You see why he's doing this and you want to help him through it. Bravo. Just keep that positive attitude and his trust will slowly build and negativity dissolve away.

Another thing I just realized. High school sweethearts, is that right? So basically one serious R for him since he was 18 and you 17. That puts it into a totally new perspective for me. (yeah, I'm a lazy reader, skim skim skim while whistling).

If so means H didn't get jaded like all we Ms once did in our 18-20s...when you would go to get a beer out of your dorm fridge for that really hot/now drunk girl you were thinking of dating. And when you came back downstairss she could be seen ambling off with another drunk M who gives you that "sucker!" look over his shoulder. Or various other short term Rs that didn't work out due to "cheating," immatturity blah blah blah.

Kinda reminds me. Like that scene from Sound of Music. "I am 16, going on 17 etc" So I can see how your As would sort of burst his protected bubble with that kind of history.

And I think that's superb, by the way. My grandmother and grandfather were married and my grandmother was 16 or 17. And they remained M for over 50 years. Keep it up. Gives me a nice warm feeling

Still won't let him off the hook for making you wear a hair shirt for 2 years though. I'm all for baby steps and emotional coddling to a point but an R is a 50-50 deal. And that means we have to stand up for ourselves from time to time to reset an egregious imbalance in the balance of power.

That's right, I'm stirring the pot again. I even think I hear the lilting sound of steel drums and Bob Marley's melodic rasta intonations..."Sti-i-i-i-r It Up....little darling...Sti-i-i-i-r It Up..."

Okay, that's it. Clicking over to Yahoo Travel now for long overdue flights to Jamaica.

Ayree-ayree mon.

-Spleefmata-

[Stigmata]

Yes he knows they are not real. I seriously doubt that he considers you not good enough. Doesnt jive with the rest of his actions.
Simmer down.
Stigmata. Stop that. (smack) not helpful.

- But..but...but-"MOOOM! Blackfoot just hit me!"

Hey you guys, I never said H couldn't distinguish between acting incapable silicone laden porn chicks and Heather. Stop putting words into my mouth or I'm tellin' mom again. It's an M visual cortex thing, DUH.

Still not helpful to plow ahead with an indulgence if it really really is bothering your SO IMO.

Hmmmm. Kinda like x. It really really bothered her to have me around a few months ago since her butterflies had all flown to San Capistrano for the winter.

Soooo, I respected her wishes and got the F outta there. It's all about respect, baby. Ah, good times, good times.

Heathers H has managed to convey something to her, that both you and I failed at conveying to our W's. <embarassment, chagrin, a couple self flaggelating whips.ok done>

-Wait. What did I fail to convey to x? [Whi-TASH!]

Owww! Oh....yeah...grumble-grumble.

God I hate it when younger people like heather's H teach me a little humility. Bah!

Dittos on the C sympatico, heather. Good luck Wendesday <thumbs up>

-Stigmata-

[Cobra]

Heather,

I’ve not kept up with your situation, so I thought I’d catch up and post a few impressions. Earlier on this thread, you replied to GEL:

I've gathered from the things H has said that there has to be 'consequences' for my actions. I can't just cheat on him and then resume life as normal. I think these 'things' have been the only way he's been able to exert a little bit of control in a situation he had absolutely no control over.

I see a lot of advice from others that while you need to address some things within yourself, your husband has his own issues that he needs to work on and you must leave him to handle that on his own. Generally I agree that this is good advice, especially for those couples that come to understand these matters, and take responsibility for themselves. But I doubt your husband is fully in that camp right now. You are trying to be, but I suspect the both of you were so enmeshed before the affair, that trying to suddenly shift to a healthier model and just work on you own stuff will trigger all sorts of abandonment feelings in him. My advice is to not do this all at once.

Both of you are on the edge right now. Before any progress can be made, I believe you both need to lower the emotional levels, get a feeling of security, find a little comfort so you have something to hang on to and move forward. If you two were enmeshed before, then I say go back to being enmeshed again, though only on a temporary basis.

Tell him WHATEVER he needs to hear to settle his anger with you. Have you read over my thread on Femininity and Dr. Schlessinger? There is a lot of talk on the male point of view and what men need from women. It is all to help cover their insecurities, which may be dysfunctional, but meting their needs can be the sedative they need to clear their emotions. So I say give him all the support you can. What has he said that he wants from you in order for him to feel better? Have you done this?

I don’t think he is going to counseling with the intention of learning how he contributed to your affair. He wants you to fully understand how you hurt and betrayed him. In short, I think he still needs validation of his pain and still feels some need for revenge. I do not know his past, but it is difficult for a man to confront his own issues, those that cause considerable pain by themselves, but even more difficult to do so at a time when he is already in pain. It may be more emotional overload than he can handle.

Also, he is keeping score in his head. He may well know what he did wrong before the affair, but he knows what you did wrong then too. On that score I would guess he counts you two even. Add to that the big negative points of the affair, and he sees that you have sooooo much to make up for. I’m not saying this is right or wrong, just how he may be seeing things.

When you disclose to him everything you did, “how many times a kiss was exchanged,” you probably aren’t helping the situation any. He is visualizing the affair and such detail just helps his visualization. If that somehow helped him work through his anger, then fine. But it doesn’t seem to be doing that. Tell him you’ve disclosed everything already and do not want to relive it. Tell him to do the same.

Heather, have you bared your soul to him about how hurt you are, about how bad you feel, how much you want him back, and have you challenged him to do he same? You talk about his anger, but you also mention yours. Are you apologies coming across to him as true remorse, load with compassion for him and what he has had to endure, or do they come across as justification for why you had the affair? A conditional apology is not an apology.

Have you tried to push the matter of intimacy some, gently “forcing” yourself on him to have sex? Remember how women will sometimes push away their husbands who are trying to make up with them. If the husband leaves as asked, the wife gets mad. What she really wants is for the husband to try harder, endure a certain amount of rebuke to satisfy her anger, but stay with her to show her how much he cares. Why wouldn’t this same principal apply to you and your H?

You mention to Chromo that you didn’t want to be too aggressive with getting back into bed. You wanted him to take the initiative. So you hold out, then complain about the relationship being stuck. Your ego is getting in the way. Sure you have needs that he did not address before the affair, but for right now, you need to get this thing moving. Building up resentment over a sense of entitlement will not help. He will not leave the marriage, or he would have already. There is a little bit of sadism playing in here. He wants to see you in pain, for what you did to him. He cannot do this if he leaves the marriage. But you won’t really give him the satisfaction of letting him truly see how hurt you are, how vulnerable you are. Your fear of a simple little thing like being rejected for a kiss tells me that. So both of you are stuck.

The goods news, if you read Schnarch, is that you are both enduring this pain because each of you mean so much to each other. If you did not, both of you would have left. You really need to understand this point and get it across to him. Both of you need to recognize the extent of the defenses you have built and both of you need to bring those down. You can take the lead. You can stop pressing him for validation right now.

I notice that your comments made in counseling are very guarded and noncommittal. What kind of comfort and commitment do you think he can get out of that? Why don’t you just come out and say what you truly want – to have a happy, loving marriage with your H and to spend the rest of your life with him and no one else, that you are committed to seeing this through and making it work. Now, how do you think that would sound to him, as opposed to saying “My strategy is now to just wait. Make good times. I've made an agreement in C to not talk about leaving anymore for a while.” Heather, you are getting back what you are putting out. This man needs reassurance!

In summary, I think you should:
• Be direct with him on how much you have endured over the past two years
• Tell him how much pain you have suffered and how committed you are to the marriage
• Let him know that before the affair you were in denial about your actions and lack of validation for him
• Push out of your comfort zone to show him how attractive he is to you. Make him feel What you are doing is way more than you may ever have given to the other man (he is making mental comparisons on your response to him vs OM)
• Emphasize the logic of Schnarch’s theory
• Set a boundary for his accountability in the current situation. Let him know that in spite of your commitment to him, you have your limits on what you can endure, and the time is now for him to get off his pity pot!

[nicegal]

Dear Stig,

Yes, you were ONE I was referring to....not the only thing I've ever read on the board. So I made it general, so as not to come down on you. We have all said things sometimes through pain or anger and I didn't want to heep more on you. ha ha ..you read between the lines quite well...as if, it wasn't obvious..huh?

You did a great clarification

Nicegal