Sigh. Second guessing myself here. I defer to your C first. My example shouldn't be followed verbatim IMO. Just responding to your telling him something like "Don't worry, I'm being loyal." He won't believe that for very long. Not enough show of remorse as he has said before.
I don't want you to freak him out. But he's showing all the signs of someone who wants desperately to bring up the A and his distrust of you but keeps flip flopping...like "you should have called" then the tone of "oh never mind, it's nothing" type thing. I am only going from my POV. I became unhinged after the A and it was a LOT worse than what you did.
She stayed over at friends' apts in the city?? Which friend? Hmmmmm, is she Fing me over again? Why isn't she answering her cell? Hmmm? Where is she? Ugh.
Maybe the lighthearted tease I suggested to de-fuse the tension is too much. Don't know. Maybe he doesn't respond well to humor. Too many things only you know about him and for which I'm only taking a stab...since I see his behavior from a similar angle. This comment from you, from an earlier post:
That is all H has wanted to see from the very beginning. He has consistently said that I may be sorry, but I haven't been sorry to him. I don't really know what that means and when I have asked in the past, he would only say "I don't know, but I can tell you I haven't seen it yet". One of the first things H wanted me to do after I revealed the A was to create a list of things I would do better or wouldn't do anymore, etc. He has most definitely been looking for remorse.
- It's just that he's screaming for reassurances from this. And you thinking of leaving is the worst thing in his mind. Big fear you'll just go right back to OM since you obviously had an attraction.
He won't /cant' bring it up. You have to somehow. Sleeping dogs lie may keep him running through negative inner dialogue. As they say, the thoughts will come in waves over a period of sometimes 4 years. My example was trying to show that you have to try and find a way to reassure him.
Maybe something more general...and without the kiss I suggested; or a quick peck on the lips after delivering something like:
"I love you. I want you to trust me H. I want you to know you are the only man for me, now and for always."
I need to stop talking. I'm getting too nervous here. Advice about As is like handling nitroglycerine. Thats why its avoided like the plague in the R self-hehlp book aisle. No one will touch it. (of course naturally I do. Way to go, Stig, you pompous a$$.)
I can only go about how I felt and still feel about mine/hers.
<sweat>
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
....dang, Heather, while I was worried about writing my follow up post you already scooped me
And I like your interaction with H waaay better than my first example. It was more like my second example only better and more customized to your H's personality. Nice job, Heather.
His "torture?" response may be either,
1. He's being an man. Pffft, right, like I'm torturing myself. Get over yourself. (but he is on some level IMO)
2. He truly feels he doesn't torture himself over the A...but somewhere is wondering how in the hell you would know he is hiding this lingering resentment.
I would back off now on showing him you know what he's thinking now and just remain affectionate towards him. Let him bring it up now if he wants. You've said your piece. If he brings up the A or the torture comment again to follow up I would try and make it clear to him again that he is your man and if this past issue ever starts to bother him that he should come to you with any questions so you both can talk it through.
The most important part of what your doing from your post is countering his negative internalizing with positive displays of affection. Negative energy drains. Positive energy builds.
His negative energy is trying to turn you negative so as to feed off it/you. But if you counter with positive feelings the negative has no choice but to starve away.
Anywho, I'm just glad you found a little something useful in my comments. I was sweating a bit about even trying to tackle something like this. I just saw the more you 2 played this game of silent moodiness the more the darkness grows.
Gotta drag this resentment stuff into the light from time to time to stunt the growth and burn it away.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I just wanted to ad something. I forgot last night that I saw your emphasis on your H's "myself" comment:
"Torture *myself*?"
As in maybe he was expecting you to say:
"So stop torturing me about it."
And would show that he is not aware he is, in fact, torturing himself by channeling resentment. he has no idea thats what it is--self torture over dwelling in the past.
At some point, yes, IMO (only if he brings up the A and your torture exchange or is still seething over the A) you will have to say something like
"And you have to stop torturing me about it. i don't have a time machine. I screwed up and I can't go back and change it now. I need you to forgive me. I already feel horrible enough over it all as it is."
In essence, his "haven't seen it yet" comment you said in an earlier post. Your remorse. He wants to see that you have been suffering from your actions internally and aren't just blowing it off--just as he has been suffering.
Good luck heatherg
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I forgot last night that I saw your emphasis on your H's "myself" comment:
"Torture *myself*?"
My interpretation of what he meant was that he is not torturing himself...*I* am torturing him by coming home late, etc. My actions are the problem, not his thoughts.
he is not aware he is, in fact, torturing himself by channeling resentment. he has no idea thats what it is--self torture over dwelling in the past.
I was thinking about this today. It seems to me, that a person can only buy into the idea that one's own thoughts are the problem if they believe in the paradigm shift thing or 'reframing'. I mean in the simplest terms, I caused these problems by having an A. Had there been no A, H would not be so paranoid. His paranoia is not to blame, the A is. I am. Forgiveness would create a paradigm shift though I guess. At that point, the blaming should end. I think it's a pretty definite guess that he has not forgiven me. H tends to blame me for lots of things. Ironically, before the A if I asked him if he had any issues with me he would always say no. Now, nothing I do is right.
It is coloring any behavior you may have one might consider to be "selfish." As are the epitome of selfishness.
I think this is very accurate. Based on the differences in H's perspective pre-A and post-A, the A is definitely seems to be coloring his perception of everything I do.
Its not a step, its more like a pushing jump. and its something to definitely resist, and IF he does reject, will you be able to not personalize?
Once he has rejected and resisted, I dont see him as being willing to talk about it, either. Not from what I see of his past behavior.
No, if H rejected a kiss from me, I don't think I would be able to not personalize. And you're right BF, he wouldn't want to talk about it. The way GEL states things is the way I wish things could happen. For me to just be able to assert my needs too, afterall I'm 50% of this R. But unfortunately I think that BF's perspective is pretty much dead on to H. He would interpret it as pushing and even if he didn't *really* interpret it as pushing, he would use it against me as such.
Heather the kissing will come.
I certainly hope so. Because I think I'm gonna have to wait. The kiss last night was a start, but it's something that's gonna have to go really, really slow and I think it's something that's gonna have to stay separate from sex for an even longer time. I'm thinking maybe I can sneak in little kisses now and then as a hello/goodbye gesture and at least get him accustomed to having our faces be that close together Once it begins to feel more normal, the fear of rejection on my part and the desire to keep up the wall on H's part will probably be much less.
Today went well. Things seem to be back on a good track. We have another MC session scheduled for Wednesday. I really need to get my thoughts clarified about the things that need to be hashed out in the sessions. As the R starts to feel 'better' the desire to not discuss the bad things becomes very strong. For some reason it starts to feel like I'm asking for trouble if I try to bring things up, kwim? I know I have to and I know it will be uncomfortable and I know it's supposed to be. I just need to choose my battles and I'm not sure what they are. We can't change the past, he'll probably never see things from my perspective, so should we even waste time discussing it? I'm thinking probably not. I'm thinking we should focus on the future and on how we want things to be and refer to the past only as it pertains to the future. For instance, a goal for the future is better communication. At that point I could refer to the past as a way of describing why I have been uncomfortable being open before. It seems more productive than *only* discussing the past because without the references to the future, it sounds more like a blaming session.
I still haven't really come to any decision on the sex issue either. BF, I'm curious about your perspective on this. You say that the kissing will come. Do you think that establishing an intimate connection would help, hinder or be independent of the kissing thing?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Maybe tonight I can just tell him that I sense he's feeling anxious and that I just want to reassure him that I am being loyal.
I think there are stronger ways to 'tell' your H that you are being Loyal, and reassure him, then with words. When people say to me, "Trust me" I immediately do NOT trust them. at all.
Why do they have to use those words? What are they hiding behind the verbal facade?
Whaddya think? I think you are very adept at, and used to, getting what you want-- in most cases.
I know. Thats not what you were asking.
That's one of his main complaints against me, that I think I can do whatever I want with no consequences
seems men have code too. Makes perfect sense too me. Stigmata touched on it but I think it goes deeper and further back into your M then just the A.
Ill say this one last time. I see your H's issues too from your descriptions. Your here and he is not. I believe he will change in reaction to your changes to make your R better.
You were gone for a weekend? longer? Try to get some touching in. something, even if its innocuous.
My actions are the problem, not his thoughts.
I see the sarcasm, buy You only have control over your actions. You did have an A and It has added a ton of issues to an already strained M. You have to fix what you did with the A before you can get to the stuff that lead up to the A. Thats how it works. I dont make the rules.
Ironically, before the A if I asked him if he had any issues with me he would always say no Yeah, not very truthful of him, but he was giving what he wanted. Acceptance.
I'm thinking maybe I can sneak in little kisses now and then as a hello/goodbye gesture and at least get him accustomed to having our faces be that close together
Try sitting next to him on the couch and resting your head on his shoulder. Think of ways to increase your contact time and make touching playful, yet full of meaning.
I still haven't really come to any decision on the sex issue either. BF, I'm curious about your perspective on this. You say that the kissing will come. Do you think that establishing an intimate connection would help, hinder or be independent of the kissing thing?
Your non decisiveness is in contradiction to your previous comment about your H 'pushing your boundaries when it comes to sex. tsk tsk. So a spade is a spade and you are doing a 'tit for tat'.
I think the sex sucks right now between you,, because H will not allow himself any emotional 'entanglement'. At least he thinks he is preventing it. Being intimate is going to create a connection though.
The reason I brought up MB, and porn before, was A) to poke your buttons and see what I was dealing with. (yes I know, not very nice. youll get over it. I could tell you were aware of that though. <chuckle>) B) to see how you felt about it, and get some more info.
So. about his MB, and porn. currently, Its not helpful to your R, and neither is your insecurity about it.
Reality. You cannot tell him what to do regarding his 'needs', or punish him for taking care of them, unless and untill you are willing to meet them completely.
You have a right to your 'no sex/ without kissing' boundary. (I say its fake.) He has a right to his 'no kissing' boundary. (I say its fake also, but needs caution.) He also has a right to take care of his needs however he sees fit, just as you did when having your multiple EA's.
not very productive though.
None of these rights is going to bring you R closer.
The sex is gonna suck. I understand your annoyance at the mechanical aspect of it. That will continue untill it is more frequent. His apparent, emotional indifference to it will continue untill it is bi or tri weekly.
IMO, I think you should sleep in your M bed. ML then roll over and go to sleep. IF he says anything, make some remark about your being HIS wife, and if he wants to continue to punish both of you for something you are actively trying to fix, he can go in the spare bedroom. You want to be married though. In all senses of the word.
Down the road, say something about it wouldnt kill him to kiss his wife once in a while, unless of course he wants the M to fail. then drop it.
Next time you make dinner, ask him if it was good. When he says yeah, point at your cheek and say 'how about a kiss for the cook? '
I think there are stronger ways to 'tell' your H that you are being Loyal, and reassure him, then with words. When people say to me, "Trust me" I immediately do NOT trust them. at all.
I see your point. I didn't exactly say 'trust me', but I did say that I understood his worries and that nothing is going on. Unless I'm missing something, my actions should be telling H that I am loyal. Maybe they are, but when I'm late, he gets uneasy. I mean, I don't go anywhere outside of work and karate. I haven't been out with friends in a very, very long time. I don't know what more I can do aside from quit karate, which H would like very much. I won't do it though because it's my outlet, I love going.
I think you are very adept at, and used to, getting what you want-- in most cases.
Who me?! Really though, after such a short time on my thread, what makes you think that? I guess I've always believed that a person can accomplish whatever they set out to do. My siblings are the same way. Perhaps it is naive, but if it is, please don't burst my bubble. I work hard and I believe that hard work pays off.
Try to get some touching in. something, even if its innocuous......Try sitting next to him on the couch and resting your head on his shoulder. Think of ways to increase your contact time and make touching playful, yet full of meaning.
When H and I aren't speaking, we aren't doing much touching either, but when we're getting along well, we're pretty affectionate. I didn't mean to give the impression that we are acting like cold fish even when things are going well. We hold hands sometimes, rest our heads on each other, he opens the car door for me, we wait on each other for small things, we watch movies on the couch together. There is quite a bit of affection.
Your non decisiveness is in contradiction to your previous comment about your H 'pushing your boundaries when it comes to sex. tsk tsk.
I haven't really expressed my indecisiveness to H, it's only an internal dialogue and something I've expressed here. I admit that I don't know if sex will help things along or if it will strain things more. That's why I came to this forum, to get some other people's viewpoints.
The reason I brought up MB, and porn before, was A) to poke your buttons and see what I was dealing with.
Discover anything interesting?
You have a right to your 'no sex/ without kissing' boundary. (I say its fake.)
Fake. I don't agree that it's fake, although I will admit I'd rather be having sex. It just seems that unless H can understand how it feels to want something that is out of his reach because of a wall that's been built, he isn't going to 'get it'. As time went on, it really did start to suck that we would have sex and not only was I not allowed to kiss him, making me feel slightly used, but then after he would get up and go sleep somewhere else. That caused feelings that are definitely not fake. IMO, there is no need for any of this. But if this is the way it's going to be, then...I'd prefer not to have those feelings nagging at me. Feelings of being used are not really conducive to fixing a R, kwim?
He also has a right to take care of his needs however he sees fit, just as you did when having your multiple EA's.
Sorry, but I disagree. My EA's were wrong, I didn't have any 'rights' and I sure as hell don't have many of those now either. Consequences. And there are consequences to H's poor decisions too.
The sex is gonna suck. I understand your annoyance at the mechanical aspect of it. That will continue untill it is more frequent. His apparent, emotional indifference to it will continue untill it is bi or tri weekly.
Again, I didn't mean to convey that sex was mechanical for us. It wasn't.....it didn't feel like 'just sex'. Until afterward when the doubts would creep in. Women sometimes complain that their men immediately roll over and go to sleep after sex. Try having your man immediately get up and go sleep somewhere else after sex. Those feelings weren't worth the sex.
IMO, I think you should sleep in your M bed. ML then roll over and go to sleep. IF he says anything, make some remark about your being HIS wife, and if he wants to continue to punish both of you for something you are actively trying to fix, he can go in the spare bedroom. You want to be married though. In all senses of the word.
That's a very interesting idea. We were ML in my bed b/c if it was degrading to have H leave my bed, it was even more degrading to feel like I had to leave. But what if when I choose to ML again, I make sure it happens in 'our' room and then I just stay in the bed...hmm. That would probably not be very ackward at all. The next night might be more ackward though. I guess I just start sleeping in there as though it's no big deal, without ever addressing it in words? If H did say something about it, to tell him if he had a problem with it he could sleep in the gues room would *not* go over well at all. Trust me, there would be a power struggle faster than you could blink.
I was thinking of maybe addressing this in our next MC session (Wednesday). GEL brought up a good point when she said if H said he didn't feel it was that big of a deal anymore, then why is it continuing? I was thinking I could ask him that very same question in MC.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
You did have an A and It has added a ton of issues to an already strained M. You have to fix what you did with the A before you can get to the stuff that lead up to the A. Thats how it works. I dont make the rules.
- Answers your questions about bringing it up or just facing the future during your MC Wednesday. Remember, there's chronological real time and A time. A time is on a totally different and slower measurement. 2 years after an A might as well be equivalent to, say, 2 months of real time, kwim?
Have to get all the unpleasantness out but, as you said, with reasons and frames of mind involved and what you both need to do at present and future to never cause these feelings/behaviors again.
As blackfoot said, thems the rules. And, yes, sneak in a peck here and there. What that will do. He will tolerate it at first. Then get used to it. Then cease before it becomes too regular/patterned. He will then miss them but not realize it. At which point you resume them at opportune moments, even trying to sneak in a nice full one from time to time.
And keep touching him, as blackfoot stated, occasionally brushing his cheek with your hand, and/or running your index finger over his lips for a few seconds.
And if you're lucky, you can once in a while tease it into his mouth to his lower teeth-line before quickly withdrawing. If you catch him and the right time and place, he might even playfully suck on it briefly. Always nice and very intimate IMO. It's a very subtle compact simulation of IC kwis? It takes care of the ML and kissing EC all at once in a different pseudo form.
At least I always like that. Sigh.
Finally, I definitely agree this is going to take baby steps. Just remember. H is going to try to bait you from time to time. Meaning when he is being unusually pi$$y to you he is trying to push your buttons, judging from your posted interactions.
It seems when that happens, you get annoyed and you both feed off each other’s silent negativity. This is one of the hardest things to do—to counter his attitude with positive reframing. Don’t take the bait. Say something nice about work or the news or something else positive to offset the atmosphere and starve his negativity. Maybe think in your mind, “It’s not me. It’s not him. He’s just struggling to process his angry/hurt feelings. Just have to ride out the storm for now.”
Agree with BF’s take on the bed thing. It has to stop at some point. It cannot continue. My suggestion would be maybe to tell him that you find you have not been sleeping well at all alone. You like having him beside you. It makes you sleep much better/deeper just knowing he’s there and you feel protected.
I think any man’s ego and need to be the protector couldn’t resist that IMO.
I am, however, worried about this continued standoff. Sex with no kissing from him. No sex without kissing from you. Not healthy and a real roadblock.
I see this as a very precarious tightrope walk. Sex without the EC/kissing will work to some degree short term but if allowed to continue I shudder to think of the consequences.
IMO having sex with him now without kissing will keep an important connection between you both. But it’s a very small Band Aid. Why? Hm.
Well, I can tell you. If I punished x this way—knowing full well she wanted me to kiss her during the act—I would view myself as not only punishing her but disrespecting and degrading her if I continued doing so. I know how important it is to her but, tough, I’m not giving it to her. Too bad. Suffer. Just lay there and take what I'm giving to you.
I’m just worried the longer this would continue the more and more H would start to detach and separate the connection between shallow rocks off sex and true marital intimacy. Kinda how MB and porn starts to dull the mental intensity over time unless the anty is upped with more and more tittilation.
Over a long period of time I think the embedded pattern of no-kissing EC-less “wham-bam” let’s get up and get dressed now/roll over and sleep sex will make it almost impossible to ever get back that deep EC/kissing intimacy sex.
Like smoking. Bad habit. You know it’s bad for you but you can’t stop the reinforced habit. I’d hate for you both to eventually emotionally detach completely. That’s doomsday scenario territory.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
(It DID confuse me... I wasn't attuned to the different questions on the table. My bad.) 
