Am I Creating a SSM?

[heatherg]

At least he is going to C! That shows that he is willing and that is more and half the battle!

I know, I really feel the same way. His decision to go after being sooo adamant against going, said something significant to me.

Obviously some things need to be dealt with first, as foundational issues...but, don't quit C until all this is brought up.

This is a good point. I imagine some people start feeling better about their R and think they don't need to go anymore. We have many many years of resentment and anger and while I don't necessarily think we need to rehash it, we at least need to recognize it, how it happened and how to not repeat the same mistakes.

It doesn't sound like your H though is willing to forgive. And resentment will follow unforgiveness. Resentment is a root that will poision every other part of your marriage.

I doubt that I will ever hear the words 'I forgive you'...I don't know if H will ever really forgive me. I think at best, it will just be a decision to go forward. I hope that in time, by changing our patterns, that he can let go of most of the resentment he carries.

I'd try to give a DB Coach a call

I did call a DB coach a while back. I paid for three sessions though, so I still have two more. Back when I spoke to Chuck the first time, I think our issues were too complex. My R was abusive and controlling and every day in our home was close to excruciating. There wasn't much he could say. Or maybe there just wasn't much that I was willing to hear because I mostly just wanted H to disappear. I think I knew that unless he changed, I couldn't go on. And I couldn't bring myself to be kind or nice or gentle during a time when I was being treated so poorly. So he was going to need to stop the poor treatment before I could really roll up my sleeves. Now is that time. So yeah, I could probably really benefit from using those other two sessions right about now. Thanks!

[heatherg]

I said: The book I referenced above is really going to help me validate and acknowledge H's feelings even if I don't agree with them. In turn, hopefully he will do the same.

BF said:
In the end it doesnt really matter if he does or not, does it? because you are taking control of your emotions and you are doing what is 'right' and so can feel better, even good about yourself, regardless of his reactions.

Well, I agree and disagree. I think that validation is very, very important to my R with H and that includes validation of what has gone on in our past. He doesn't need to agree with my perspective or remember things quite the way I do, but he does need to learn how to really hear me. All of my R with H, I haven't felt really heard and it had a definite contribution to the downfall of our M. On the other hand, you're right, I can feel better about myself regardless of H's reactions. But to feel better about the R, validation and listening are going to be big.

When running a marathon, (which is another brutal contest of opposing internal wills) its much easier on yourself, vital even, if you chant, 'I can do it, I can do it' (affirming, encouraging, upbuilding to self)then it is to say, 'How much further, how much further. (doubt, uncertainty, irrelevant self sabotage)

Never thought about it like that. Good point.

Im glad you realize that you both acted in ways that were 'not you', unacceptable even. That you were in fact being driven, despite your sometimes awareness, sometimes not, to doing things, that you (both) shouldnt have.

By recognizing this, it has helped me to view the past two years as 'reactions' rather than as true attributes of my H's character. In which case I probably wouldn't want to stay! So yeah, I agree that this is a crucial step in preparing myself to move forward...not with a monster but with someone who just reacted poorly to a really difficult situation. Same for me when I think about forgiving myself for what I did to my family and my M. I'm really pretty hard on myself, but if I think more in terms that I reacted poorly to a situation in which I felt neglected and really lonely, forgiveness seems more within reach.

Nice going heather.

Thanks!

rahrahfoot.

[chromosphere]

"The no kissing thing is just this underlying rule that I comply with because I have no choice."

Well, you have a choice, but it isn't a particularly palatable one. You could continue to kiss him and either get rejected or at best tolerated. I guess I can understand why your H had this in place for a short time, but after awhile, it becomes his problem, not yours anymore. If someone is unwilling to forgive, especially a repentant partner, then they are mostly hurting themselves.

"only reason we are not in the same bed right now is because he never knows when things will go 'bad' again."

What does "go bad" mean? Does he fear another A on your part? Or does he fear an irrational response (like that lights on/head kicking event) on his part? I guess I don't understand that perspective.

"the only reason I would walk away would be because of his refusal to re-establish a mutually agreeable R with me."

Which is a perfectly good reason to separate, assuming that the disagreement is a valid one. I think refusing to sleep in the same bed, withholding affection that you need, and having an EC-less sexual experience are valid. NOTE: I am not saying you should separate, just that if you decide to, you have good reasons.

"a really miserable environment where I would fantasize about leaving pretty much every day."

Does he know that? If so does it affect him? If he is indifferent to you leaving, that says a lot.

"I'm just wondering if the other things will come in time?"

It is up to you to set an appropriate boundary and put some teeth in it. "Honey, I love you and I know that I am partially responsible for the strained relationship that we currently have. But I want to make it better. I cannot continue in the relationship as it currently stands." Sound about right?

Chrome

[heatherg]

If it weren't a big deal....why continue it? It doesn't make sense to me. Just trying to understand.


Good point. I think at the point he said that, I could have been more aggressive, but I really want it to be his decision. I don't want him to lead me into inviting myself back into my bed. His disallowing me there has really hurt our R and I think it would be best for healing that wound if he undid it himself. Know what I mean? I think I chose to sort of practice the validation thing there, just telling him that I understood and when he was ready he would know. I didn't leap to solve the problem. I don't really know if that was a good thing to do or not, but it was what felt right at the time.

Stop wondering and ask the man. Heather....don't be afraid to ask things of him. I read in your posts that you wonder this....or you wonder that.....ASK him.

I really am afraid I guess. One time (about 5 months ago)when we discussed the kissing thing, he told me it was forever. That was the beginning of a serious downward spiral because I know I can't live like that forever. Then in counseling, I addressed it again. We were getting along horribly, barely even speaking to one another and I looked at the counselor and said "You know, this is going to be tough, I know it is. But there's no point in wasting all of our time if H and I have different end goals. I cannot live the rest of my life in a M where there I am not allowed to kiss my H, that would be a show stopper for me. So, maybe we should just cut to the chase." So, the C looked at H and asked him if his goal was to have an intimate M with s strong emotional connection or something of that nature, and H said "Yeah, sure" in a tone that wasn't exactly determined, but wasn't nonchalant either. I should have pressed harder, because I wanted to be more specific than what the C said. I think she felt I was pressing too hard too soon. But at that point, I was truly prepared for either answer. Now that we are getting along so much better and I have hope again, I am afraid of the question because I am afraid of the answer.

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

You are afraid to push. What I'm suggesting isn't pushing either.....it's clarifying. You need to ask questions of him when things are going fairly well....like now. Now, IMPO, is the time to either just walk up and kiss the man and take the chance at rejection. Either he will allow you to kiss him, or he will reject the kiss....and that will open up the opportunity to ask him about it.

I understand your wanting him to do things at his pace....BUT there are two of you in the R. In some ways I believe you are shooting yourself in the foot by not #1 sleeping in your own bed, and #2 addressing some of the behaviors that make you feel pushed away too. You make it so very easy for him not to deal with you.....and that makes it far too likely things will continue as they are now. Yes, you did something wrong....but you've been paying for that for a long time too.

Others may not agree with me (wouldn't be the 1st time)...but that's how I see it.

GEL

[blackfoot]

Now, IMPO, is the time to either just walk up and kiss the man and take the chance at rejection. Either he will allow you to kiss him, or he will reject the kiss....and that will open up the opportunity to ask him about it.

Ok, I differ.
Particularly on the NOW, part of the sentence.
Its not a step, its more like a pushing jump. and its something to definitely resist, and IF he does reject, will you be able to not personalize?

Once he has rejected and resisted, I dont see him as being willing to talk about it, either. Not from what I see of his past behavior.


Heather the kissing will come.

[heatherg]

Yeah, I'm kind of confused on what to do and since doing nothing is easier, that's what I've indirectly chosen

If I took the chance at being rejected, things could turn really ugly. H could use it against me for who knows how long, that I was inconsiderate of his feelings just doing what I wanted to do. That's one of his main complaints against me, that I think I can do whatever I want with no consequences.

Right before I left for Orlando, H said even though I was saying 'no sex', he was still going to "play around". This makes me feel a little pressured, so I don't really know what to do about it. During this, I asked "What if I just kissed you, would it be so bad?" He didn't answer. It was as if I never asked the question. And I feel it, when I lean toward him, I can tell that he turns his fact slightly. He's not ready, he doesn't want it.

I figured if he can ask for what he wants (sex) and push my boundaries a little, then how can he fault me for doing the same? But he didn't even acknowledge that I spoke much less give me any kind of answer.

Then yesterday and still today H has been stand-offish because I was 20 mins late from work yesterday and didn't call. I said that I didn't think 20 mins was that late but that I was sorry for not calling since I could tell it bothered him. Later I asked if he was upset because I didn't call and he said "No, I'm fine". I could tell he wasn't fine and I don't understand why he insists on playing games. I hate that. The only thing he said about it was when I walked in the door "Geez, you could have called". So it seems that has set us back a little. Talk about walking on eggshells. I'm trying to be understanding though because right before I told him about the A, I was coming home late from work. Not because I was with OM but because I just didn't want to go home. I'd just drive around. Then today he called twice and I was in a meeting, so I didn't know it until I got out. I feel like he's feeling anxious right now and I should probably reassure him. Maybe tonight I can just tell him that I sense he's feeling anxious and that I just want to reassure him that I am being loyal. Whaddya think?

[heatherg]

What does "go bad" mean? Does he fear another A on your part? Or does he fear an irrational response (like that lights on/head kicking event) on his part? I guess I don't understand that perspective.

I think he means that our R will take a turn right into a 'bad cycle'. It's like he doesn't want to put himself in a position where he will welcome me back into our room and then have me make him feel unwelcome if we are not getting along. I've never told him he could not sleep in our bed, but apparently I haven't always made him *feel* welcome.
I highly doubt that H feels that the incident that took place when I tried to sleep in our bed was 'irrational'. I think he feels pretty justified in all the things he's done.

Which is a perfectly good reason to separate, assuming that the disagreement is a valid one. I think refusing to sleep in the same bed, withholding affection that you need, and having an EC-less sexual experience are valid. NOTE: I am not saying you should separate, just that if you decide to, you have good reasons.

Hopefully it won't ever have to come down to that. H was always really good at reminding me what leaving would do to our kids. He would always say things like 'You don't have any idea the damage you're going to do. You're going to rip their hearts out.'
Deep down, I know that it isn't just me....I didn't make our R fail single handedly. However, I do have the power to keep their little worlds together if I stay and H knows just when to play the 'selfish card', telling me how selfish I am and how I never think of anyone but myself.
So, the reasons may be good, but the guilt is quite frankly, too overwhelming. If staying is hard work, I'm here to tell you that with a partner like my H, leaving would be harder.

"a really miserable environment where I would fantasize about leaving pretty much every day."

Does he know that? If so does it affect him? If he is indifferent to you leaving, that says a lot.

H would never give me the satisfaction of saying 'I don't want you to go'. Pre-A, he would just say fine, go. There's the door. After the A, he would tell me how much it would hurt the kids, but he always said he didn't care. He said that he was willing to cohabitate in the house for the sake of the kids and that he was willing to forego his future with a mate.

It is up to you to set an appropriate boundary and put some teeth in it. "Honey, I love you and I know that I am partially responsible for the strained relationship that we currently have. But I want to make it better. I cannot continue in the relationship as it currently stands." Sound about right?

I think I've done that. At the C session I think I was pretty blunt. My strategy is now to just wait. Make good times. I've made an agreement in C to not talk about leaving anymore for a while (H brought it up as something that bothers him~I think he wants to feel secure that we have a future together). So, I really want to leave the negative statements out of our R for a while and just concentrate on the good and show him what our M could be like. If we come into a 'bad cycle' again, I want him to miss it. I want him to feel it. When everything is miserable, it's easier for him to say 'Fine, go.' But when things turn miserable after being so good, the disappointment is definitely there and hence so is the motivation to either fix things or not let them get bad again.

[Stigmata]

Heather.

This was me after the A. Serious head fcuk. I was totally blindsided so...everything after my mind was blown was called into suspicion. Unaccounted for time, places...hmmmm....accessing "potential rendezvous times/locations in memory banks.

That's one of his main complaints against me, that I think I can do whatever I want with no consequences.

- Resentment leaking out over the A. Period. Passive-aggressive comment here. "How dare you have an A behind my back and think you can get away with it."

It is coloring any behavior you may have one might consider to be "selfish." As are the epitome of selfishness.

Then yesterday and still today H has been stand-offish because I was 20 mins late from work yesterday and didn't call. I said that I didn't think 20 mins was that late but that I was sorry for not calling since I could tell it bothered him. Later I asked if he was upset because I didn't call and he said "No, I'm fine". I could tell he wasn't fine and I don't understand why he insists on playing games. I hate that. The only thing he said about it was when I walked in the door "Geez, you could have called". So it seems that has set us back a little. Talk about walking on eggshells. I'm trying to be understanding though because right before I told him about the A, I was coming home late from work. Not because I was with OM but because I just didn't want to go home. I'd just drive around. Then today he called twice and I was in a meeting, so I didn't know it until I got out.

- Yep. All of this. Big red flags he is packing away resentment. It is building. He is nowhere near over the A. He does not trust you and if the 2 of you don't confront it, the paranoia will reach unbearable levels.

I feel like he's feeling anxious right now and I should probably reassure him. Maybe tonight I can just tell him that I sense he's feeling anxious and that I just want to reassure him that I am being loyal. Whaddya think?"

- Your senses are spot on, Heather. I am going to offer an composite suggestion that is meant to hit multiple birds with one stone. And I'll explain the rationale afterwards.

You need to do this and say something like this IMO. First, sit him down so he is below you. The couch, edge of the bed whatever. Lean down, grab his face with both hands:

"You are the man of my dreams. I may have stupidly forgotten that once 2 years ago but I will never ever forget that again and risk losing you. Do you understand?"

Then relax your tone and seriousness. Softer gentle voice.

"So drop the paranoia, ya big jerk. "There is absolutely nothing for you to worry about. I'm all yours baby and I love you."

Then (while still holding his face and still smiling) plant a big kiss on his lips and don't let him pull away.

I highly doubt he will pull away after this IMO. Then let his face go and give him a little space.

What you are doing on multiple levels. You are showing you are serious and bringing up the A. Rush of bad feelings. But you are being very earnest/sincere.

Next, you are using humor to offset the discomfort ("ya big jerk") and teasing him for being so paranoid. He lets down his defenses/pain thoughts over A and feels a little sheepish over his paranoia.

Finally, with his shields down and still feeling a little foolish over his paranoia you smash through his huge "punishment wall" of witholding his kisses from you. You're not asking him if it's okay to kiss him (stop that btw).

You are taking what you deserve. He has no right to keep punishing you.

You are plowing and kissing him whether he agrees to it or not. A way of showing "Get over it already. Knock this sht off and kiss me like your wife."

As I said before, he needs a lot of reassurances. I think an act like this will change his mood to the relief/positive and carry him through to a nice home atmosphere for a decent length of time. Hopefully...

-Stigmata-

[heatherg]

WOW, WOW, WOW! Stigmata, your post was such a pep talk for me and helped me make a situation better instead of worse. H and I were headed down a bad road and then I read your post and thought to myself 'ok, I can do this!'
After karate tonight, I stopped at the grocery store because I hadn't eaten dinner yet and I knew we didn't have any soda at home and I would want a soda with my dinner. So I stopped at the grocery store and while I was in the checkout, I called H and told him where I was. He hung up without saying goodbye. I could feel my blood pressure rising. What a bunch of crap! I got home about 20 mins later than usual and H and I exchanged some words, not in a nice way. I was pissed. He was paranoid like you said.
After I read your post, I went out to where H was sitting at the kitchen table (he was sitting and I was standing) and I asked him to look at me. I told him that I understood that being late reminded him of the A and that I wanted to reassure him that nothing is going on. S5 came out and H tucked him back in. As he came back into the kitchen, he tried to walk past me and I put my arm up and pulled him closer to me. I told him again that nothing is going on and that he is my man and I want this M to work. I kissed him. Not a passionate kiss, just a peck, but it was firmly and squarely on his lips. He let me, but he gave me a look. I told him playfully to stop torturing himself with all these thoughts (I replaced this as my humor....I am trying not to call H names even playfully) with a hug. He said 'torturing *myself*? I didn't answer.
That was it.
He didn't instantly get over it. We'll see how tomorrow goes.

Thanks so much!