Am I Creating a SSM?

[haphazard]

Hi Heather,

Someone mentioned your name to me in regard to my own sitch, so when I saw your post here I immediately read it. I can see similarities between your H and mine. They both seem to be control freaks and both are holding onto resentment big-time. I do not like the way your H is behaving. This punishing behaviour cannot go on and on, there has to be some sort of limit. I think you need to ask, whether at C session, or just on your own exactly what he is looking for from you before he will be able to start kissing you, letting you back in the bed etc. I know you feel guilty for what you did but you are accepting way to much punishing behaviour from him.

He really does seem to have the upper hand here, YOU did something bad therefore he totally gets to call the shots. When sentence is handed down they usually tell you how long you've got with time off for good behaviour! By the sound of this you have no idea how long it might go on for. When you say your R is cyclical that kind of rings alarm bells for me too. Have you checked out anything about borderline personality disorder? Might be worth a look.

take care

Fran

[heatherg]

DO NOT STUFF what you are feeling.

I haven't really stuffed my feelings, it's just that there are some issues that it doesn't appear that we are going to be able to come to a solution on because H is not willing to change his mind on those issues, primarily where S5 is concerned. H knows how I feel, but he doesn't seem to be willing to work toward a solution. So, when I said I will probably let some sleeping dogs lie, I didn't really mean that I won't talk about how I feel, but that I don't think I should try to push things farther than that right now.

You do NOT need to show remorse.

That is all H has wanted to see from the very beginning. He has consistently said that I may be sorry, but I haven't been sorry to him. I don't really know what that means and when I have asked in the past, he would only say "I don't know, but I can tell you I haven't seen it yet". One of the first things H wanted me to do after I revealed the A was to create a list of things I would do better or wouldn't do anymore, etc. He has most definitely been looking for remorse.

Justice is paying for a crime once.

Wouldn't that be nice? Unfortunately it doesn't seem very realistic, especially when we're dealing with people who have been hurt so deeply that they cannot see past their own pain. Their anger seems to drive them to do/say things that give them temporary relief from that pain and unfortunately it just seems to be a downward spiral. I think H and I are finally breaking out of that spiral and I cannot tell you how good it feels to get some relief from that constant tension!!!

Suffering is paying for the same crime over and over again.

This is where H and I have been for the last two years. Like I said above, it seems that his anger and his pain have controlled him to such an extent that the only reprieve he could get was to make me suffer and pay the consequences for my actions. H seems to be making so much progress that I really think he may be moving past this now.

I will post more a little later. I am in Orlando for a business conference and the schedule is quite busy~I'm off to Universal Studios now for an organized event. Fun!

[koshka]

Heather,

I didn't really mean that I won't talk about how I feel, but that I don't think I should try to push things farther than that right now.

Where'd you get the "avoid cheeseless tunnels" idea? Huh? Where?

Sound like the better part of valor to me.

One of the first things H wanted me to do after I revealed the A was to create a list of things I would do better or wouldn't do anymore, etc.

When I first learned of OM-0, I wanted XW to show something, too. I wanted her to show interest in preserving and strengthening our M. Old story, she didn't, life goes on (very well, I might add), but it doesn't sound like that was your H's focus.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem very realistic, especially when we're dealing with people who have been hurt so deeply that they cannot see past their own pain.

It's not your job, nor even within your capabilities, to make him see beyond his pain. His pain goes back way before your "A" and all you can do, if he does finally face it, is watch. You can't defeat his demons for him, and he does have demons.

H seems to be making so much progress that I really think he may be moving past this now.

Well, make sure he knows you appreciate it. Go for the tunnel with the cheese!

Thanks,

Joe
(Don't read all this stuff about cheese out loud if you're still in Orlando! )

[Jabez]

It's not your job, nor even within your capabilities, to make him see beyond his pain. His pain goes back way before your "A" and all you can do, if he does finally face it, is watch. You can't defeat his demons for him, and he does have demons.

Jeez Joe, Replace the him/his/he with a generic S and you can post it on every thread here! Universal advice that alone is worth the price of admission.

[chromosphere]

Heatherg,

It is pretty scary how similar our situations are. Early 30s, young kids, an A in the background, good/bad cycles. There are some differences, the W and I haven't gotten back into sex yet, but she is nowhere near as fixated on the A as your H is.

"Because of my A, I am still not allowed back in my own bed. Because of my A, H still refuses to kiss me (kissing was the only physical interaction between OM and myself)."

I can understand academically why your H is having these hang-ups, but at some point in an R you either have to let go of past hurts or terminate the R. And not letting someone sleep in the marriage bed is IMHO rather ridiculous. I don't see anyway for the two of you to reconnect in a meaningful way until someone takes down that sword.

As Harley talks about, sex without affection and intimacy is hollow and actually damaging to an R, especially for the woman in most cases. I personally cannot imagine having sex with someone that I could not sleep with or kiss. Then again, I tend to fall on the ML side of sex rather than the "get my rocks off" side. Not saying that is what your H is doing necessarily, but it wouldn't be unheard of.

Your H is right to be upset by your A and what you did. And if he can't get over being upset (which is also certainly his right), then he should do the right thing and separate, especially since it is obvious that you do not want to live in an EC-less M. I'm not saying you should go find a lawyer tomorrow. But he should either commit to at least trying to resolve the issue.

You should not feel bad at all tying sex to everything else, that is the way it should be. For many of us here, it is the opposite. Our SOs think that they can have everything else BUT sex while yours thinks he can have sex with nothing else (or at least without some other key ingredients). A healthy M is one in which all the key elements are present and mix together. Sex is not the icing on the cake. Trying to separate out sex from the other parts of a healthy M is like trying to bake a cake with no sugar.

Chromo-cuda

[nicegal]

Dear Heather,

You've gotten some good thoughts here to consider. I'd repeat with both Gel and Corri said. They said it well.

At least he is going to C! That shows that he is willing and that is more and half the battle! You sound like you are happy with your C. Good. IMportant. Obviously some things need to be dealt with first, as foundational issues...but, don't quit C until all this is brought up.

Forgiveness is a huge thing in marriage. It is a decision...believe it or not. However, the pain of it does take time to heal, even if you have forgiven. But in order for healing to begin to take place, forgiveness must be decided upon. Then trust has to be rebuilt. It does take time.

It doesn't sound like your H though is willing to forgive. And resentment will follow unforgiveness. Resentment is a root that will poision every other part of your marriage.

Keep on with C, and I'd try to give a DB Coach a call. Why? I did so. I was in C and that was good...but the DB coaches gave great practical advice. They got to it, whereas with some C they seem to prolong it. Not saying it isn't good or necessary...but the DB Coaches came from a different angle and the advice worked for me every time!!! It is well worth a mere $150 investment into your M.

All the best...dear Heather,
Nicegal

[heatherg]

Nothing has changed in your R.... challenging someone is not necessarily a struggle for power... and rather than say 'challenge him' I suppose the best way to put it is "defend YOU." Defend your boundaries. And if he gets pissy with you, that is HIS problem.

Right. My problem in the past is that I always get pissy back. I play the game every time, just like a trained dog. I know I'm doing it, but I still continue on. It's definitely insanity.....you know, doing the same thing every time but hoping for a different result.

I really feel like things are coming together for me though, all the things I've been learning. All the pieces are starting to fit into the puzzle. The book "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" is a GREAT book and I highly recommend it to anyone and everyone. It's really helped pull together many different concepts.

Corri, thank you for all your words. You speak wisely, like someone who has already been where I am. I appreciate your thoughts.

I do wonder if it is possible to brush aside the negative aspects of your life and all the emotional baggage it has created and just concentrate on the good. Or if you have to deal with the negative aspects to allow the relationship to become good.

I think I'm ready to focus on the good. We've spent an awful lot of time (H and I) stuck in the negativity cycle. The book I referenced above is really going to help me validate and acknowledge H's feelings even if I don't agree with them. In turn, hopefully he will do the same. With a little validation on both our parts, I truly believe we can leave the past where it belongs.

And regaurdless of what you have done in the past Heather I do not believe that you deserve to be treated as you have been.

Thanks Chrissy. I don't think I deserved it either. And I don't think H deserved what he got from me either. It's really a tragedy when two people do these things to one another. It has really helped to be able to tell my story and have people stand with me and reassure me during this miserable time in my life. Thank you!

Your H does not trust you. He is stuffing and eventually his jealousy will get the better of him if he cannot let go of the past.

I agree wholeheartedly. H has always hand tendencies toward jealousy anyway, so the A has magnified that and given his jealousy justification. I hope he will be able to let go of the past, I really do.

He doesn't think he knows everything despite you assuring him otherwise.

This is probably true. I have told him every detail, how many times I saw OM, how many times a kiss was exchanged, who initiated the kiss, etc. He knows all the details and I never balked at disclosing them. He asked everything he wanted to know at the time the A was revealed and I was open and honest. Aside from this incredible breach of trust, I am a very honest and trustworthy person. I know those don't sound like traits of someone who is capable of what I did. Nevertheless, I have not had other instances of such behavior. Ever. But despite that, H has said over and over that it wouldn't surprise him one bit if I was seeing someone again. Now. I think he knows deep down that I'm not (as full of anger and resentment as he is, there is no way he could carry on any kind of R with me if he didn't have some level of confidence in my words), but he doesn't ever want to be taken off guard again like he was before. H and I had a great deal of trust in one another.....cheating is something we both thought we were immune from. The shock of it all has really affected him and he is still waiting for that other shoe to drop.

One question. Not familiar with sitch. Did he leave after discovery or vice versa? Or was it kind of a lot of initial emotion then quick mutual wishing to get past it and on to applying "fixing/solutions" ASAP while still living together?

H threw me out of the house. I stayed with my brother for a few days, I wasn't really even allowed to see my kids. In retrospect, I know that would have changed in time, he would not have kept them from me forever. But the initial shock of it all....well, I would say I probably truly went through something that could be labeled post traumatic shock syndrome. I had to rock back and forth through my days just to keep myself somewhat centered. I stayed with my brother for a few days until I could see a lawyer. The lawyer of course instructed me to GO HOME. Everyone I talked to said GO HOME. So I did. H would not leave the home and with the lawyer instructing me not to leave either....well, it seemed there was no way out. Neither of us wanted to do anything that would jeopardize our position in court to be able to get custody of our kids. It was miserable. To separate would truly have been in the best interest of the M. I will never, ever forget those early weeks and the damage that was done to our R will truly be there forever. But the lawyers were telling both of us that leaving the home was not recommended. So, in the house we stayed.

I had wished I had left after discovery. Left proximity with her. No contact. Followed by a coming together to hash it out after some time alone/apart to reflect/cool off. Moving too quickly did not allow me to process all of my questions etc. and the resentment waves creeped back in.

I totally agree that this would be ideal. It wasn't really possible in my situation as neither of us trusted the other to not try to take the kids away. It was a horrible time, driven entirely be fear. Even back then though, I was able to distinguish what would be better for my M vs what was better for me and my kids. I had to pick the latter.

They both seem to be control freaks and both are holding onto resentment big-time. I do not like the way your H is behaving. This punishing behaviour cannot go on and on, there has to be some sort of limit. I think you need to ask, whether at C session, or just on your own exactly what he is looking for from you before he will be able to start kissing you, letting you back in the bed etc. I know you feel guilty for what you did but you are accepting way to much punishing behaviour from him.


Yes, there was too much punishing behavior without a doubt. And maybe there even still is. But it's so much better than it was, at least it *seems* good, even if it's not, if that makes sense. Good is relative I guess, and compared to where we've been, things are very good right now!
I have found that there is much truth to the idea that this all takes time and patience.....it really does. I feel like we are finally turning a corner and if you hang in there long enough, you will probably turn the corner too. I think too many give up too soon....right before the last lap maybe.

Have you checked out anything about borderline personality disorder? Might be worth a look.


Actually, I have. Nothing really fit with all the characteristics or even most. I think, simply, my H just has a unique way of viewing the world. He has ever since I met him. He is judgmental, opinionated and extreme. I have always known that about him, but I was never on the receiving end of his judgment, at least not to this extreme.

Well, make sure he knows you appreciate it. Go for the tunnel with the cheese!

Thanks for the reminder to let H know that I appreciate how well things have been going. I need those reminders because I tend to focus on the bad when things are bad and then accept the good as 'normal' when things are good, not showing appreciation.

I just got back from Orlando tonight and I'm exhausted. I'll post more later.

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. It is so nice to meet so many new and knowledgeable people.

[blackfoot]

The book I referenced above is really going to help me validate and acknowledge H's feelings even if I don't agree with them. In turn, hopefully he will do the same.

In the end it doesnt really matter if he does or not, does it? because you are taking control of your emotions and you are doing what is 'right' and so can feel better, even good about yourself, regardless of his reactions.


I have found that there is much truth to the idea that this all takes time and patience.....it really does. I feel like we are finally turning a corner and if you hang in there long enough, you will probably turn the corner too. I think too many give up too soon....right before the last lap maybe

only one way to find out if its the last lap.

Keep moving forward.

When running a marathon, (which is another brutal contest of opposing internal wills) its much easier on yourself, vital even, if you chant, 'I can do it, I can do it' (affirming, encouraging, upbuilding to self)then it is to say, 'How much further, how much further. (doubt, uncertainty, irrelevant self sabotage)

It was a horrible time, driven entirely be fear

Im glad you realize that you both acted in ways that were 'not you', unacceptable even. That you were in fact being driven, despite your sometimes awareness, sometimes not, to doing things, that you (both) shouldnt have.

Thanks for the reminder to let H know that I appreciate how well things have been going. I need those reminders because I tend to focus on the bad when things are bad and then accept the good as 'normal' when things are good, not showing appreciation.



Nice going heather.

rahrahfoot.

[heatherg]

Ugh, I had a post that I put a lot of time into just disappear. Don't you hate that?!

It is pretty scary how similar our situations are.

I know, that's why I went back to read your old threads, I thought the same thing.

As Harley talks about, sex without affection and intimacy is hollow and actually damaging to an R,

I wouldn't say there is no affection. H is an affectionate person in general and sex is no different. I would not have ever described H as a 'get your rocks off' kind of guy. He was a virgin when I met him and it wasn't because of a lack of opportunity, he was just waiting for the right person. The no kissing thing is just this underlying rule that I comply with because I have no choice. As for not sleeping in the same bed, he recently said that it's not that big of a deal to him and that the only reason we are not in the same bed right now is because he never knows when things will go 'bad' again. That reason is very, very different from the reasons we were not sleeping in the same bed the last time we talked about it.

Your H is right to be upset by your A and what you did. And if he can't get over being upset (which is also certainly his right), then he should do the right thing and separate, especially since it is obvious that you do not want to live in an EC-less M.

I know. It was quite frustrating because if I were to leave, I would theoretically be the 'WAS', but in essence, the only reason I would walk away would be because of his refusal to re-establish a mutually agreeable R with me. His refusal to that along with his refusal to leave or work with me for a plan for me to leave was very hard and created a really miserable environment where I would fantasize about leaving pretty much every day. It was quite the catch 22.

A healthy M is one in which all the key elements are present and mix together. Sex is not the icing on the cake. Trying to separate out sex from the other parts of a healthy M is like trying to bake a cake with no sugar.

I'm just wondering if the other things will come in time? H said for him, sex is an extension of the progress we've made and would only make things better. I can't decipher if those are the words of someone who is sexually frustrated or if those are sincere thoughts.

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

I don't get the bed and the comment about he doesn't know when things will go bad again. If it not that big of a deal to him and his reasoning is that he doesn't know when things will go bad again....does he not see that he's sabotaging the R by telling you to stay out of the marriage bed? If it weren't a big deal....why continue it? It doesn't make sense to me. Just trying to understand.

You also said this....("I'm just wondering if the other things will come in time?") Stop wondering and ask the man. Heather....don't be afraid to ask things of him. I read in your posts that you wonder this....or you wonder that.....ASK him.

GEL