Am I Creating a SSM?

[heatherg]

Hi all,
My name is Heather and I usually post on the infidelity boards. A situation is creeping into my M that I thought you all would best be able to help me with.
A little background:
Me: 31
H: 32
Kids: D3, S5
H and I have been together since I was 17.
In July 2004, I confessed to some physical involvement with another man and some emotional involvement with a person I knew only through the internet. I cut off all contact with both of them.
Naturally, our R hit rock bottom and the last year and a half has been extremely turbulent, teetering on the brink of D.
We have had good times, in the span of whole weeks at a time during this past year and a half, but inevitably something happens to turn things bad again.
H and I are on a 'good cycle' right now. We started MC a few weeks back, but we've only been able to go a few times due to H's work schedule.

Ok, so here's what I hope you can help me with. During the good cycles of this turbulent time, H and I usually re-establish an intimate connection. We have sex. Because of my A, I am still not allowed back in my own bed. Because of my A, H still refuses to kiss me (kissing was the only physical interaction between OM and myself). We have worked around this, sexually speaking. But I found that it made me resentful and it made me question his motives for refusing to sleep with me or kiss me. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what my A did to our M and to my H's trust in me and his love for me. I know he needs time to heal. However, I can't help but think that if he is healed enough to have sex with me, he should be healed enough to kiss me or sleep in the same bed as me.

As far as our R is concerned, he won't say what he wants from it or what his goals may be. He will only say he takes it one day at a time and wants to start out simply 'being nice to each other'. I'm fine with that. But he seems to think that sex falls into the category of 'being nice to each other' and I'm not sure I agree.

To me, he seems to be witholding the EC that is supposed to be there during sex between two people who supposedly love each other. Which then makes it purely physical. Which then makes me feel used. It reminds me of Pretty Woman, where she reveals that she doesn't kiss her 'clients' because it is too intimate. It's just physical. I don't want to feel like Pretty Woman when I'm with my H.

So, H and I have had a couple short discussions about this the last couple nights and he seems to think I am 'driving the bus' on this issue and that he just has to sit back and wait for me to say that sex is ok now. I have explained my position and that when we've had sex in the recent past it made me feel a little resentful and this time things are going so well, I just want to take things slowly and re-establish our EC first. He said it was very unfair in the recent past because I would initiate sex too and then come to find out, I was feeling resentful. He is confused how I can feel resentful when I initiated sex just as often as he did. I explained to him, that I want sex, I want him. But overall, by doing it, it didn't make me feel good about our R. I feel like he is totally missing the point, because regardless of who initiates the contact, the end result is that he is not taking down the walls. I guess I hoped that it would come in time, but I just found that sex was causing too many negative feelings and I don't know how much time I should let go by, haveing sex, with all of that building up inside me. We have enough problems as it is.

So, if my crystal ball is working properly, I see this as becoming an issue at best and a power struggle at worst.

Any suggestions?

[Greeneyedlass]

heatherg,

Ok...you came clean about your A 2 years ago, but obviously your H is still in a great deal of pain over it. It takes everyone different lengths of time to heal from a wound that deep. One thing I'd like to kind of clue you in on that I think your H could be struggling with is well...as you mentioned kissing.

Kissing for many people is one of the most intimate acts you can do with someone. No offense intended here, but there are many hookers out there who have sex, but refuse to kiss someone on the mouth. Many people can in some ways disassociate the physical act of sex from actual intimacy, but it's very difficult to disassociate kissing from intimacy....I think this is what your H is struggling with.

The sad fact is....as you say, the ONLY thing you did with the OM is kissing....the ultimate intimate act to many people. Your H refusing to kiss you tells me he's one of these things #1 afraid to be intimate with you because you'll hurt him again and he doesn't trust you, or #2 withholding that intimacy from you out of unresolved anger.

It's a good thing the two of you are in MC right now, that's really where you two should be IMPO. Has this issue been brought up in your sessions?

GEL

[LustForLife]

Hi Heather
It sounds to me like you are trying to use sex to regain some of that EC and then getting upset when your H does not seem to be responding. I understand where you are coming from but I guess I am somewhat relating more to your H here.
I had a WAH who I think also tried to use sex in the beginning of our reconciliation to regain EC. I was fighting it quite a bit. I wanted to have sex and we did (just like you and your H). But outside the bedroom, I was still carrying a lot of resentment.
In fact, during sex, I told him it was more a f*ck than ML. I just didn't feel a strong love connection with him and frankly, I still struggle with this now. I do love him, don't get me wrong. And I am sure your H loves you. But the resentment can be very powerful. You want that "in love" feeling again but it is so hard to regain after so much R trauma.
You are going on two years now? Some of this should start to be resolved at this point I would think. Not letting you into bed? No kissing? I think you definitely need the MC so good for the two of you for going.
Just wanted to share that it can be done. Things can get better. It just takes lots of time and understanding. Good Luck.

[Chrissy]

Heather,

Sorry to see your sitch has not improved much.
I do have some questions for you.
Does H still refuse to ride in your vehicle?
Is H still playing your son off against you? And making him feel negative towards you? And disallowing you to join in there activities?
Are you now allowed to pick them up from daycare?
Has there been anymore instances like your H locking you in the laundry room? Or your vacation ?
How is the kick boxing classes going? Does H still give you a hard time about that?
I sorta recall your H was drinking quite a bit is that still going on?( maybe I am confussed on this).


Sorry to bring up the bad just trying to catch up from where I left off of your sitch. It had gotten to the point it reflected to much of mine in ways I did not feel I had much I could offer you.

[heatherg]

GEL:
Yes, H is still struggling with the pain I'm sure. It was a horrible, horrible breach of trust.
I've heard that certain things are considered more intimate than others for some people.
I agree with your two angles on the possibilities for why he is witholding. The idea that it is unresolved anger is what I meant when I said I doubt his motives. He says he is not 'punishing' me, but he has said that all along about many things when clearly his intention was to punish me.
The issue has not come up in MC yet because we've only had a few sessions and those sessions were during a time when H was not speaking to me much less wanting sex. And that was only just a few weeks ago. I know it seems weird to go from not speaking to discussing sex in such a short time span...our R is very volatile right now, taking wide swings from one extreme to another.

LFL:
Am I using sex to try to regain an EC with H....I don't know, I suppose I am to a certain extent. Actually, I would say that was more true before when we *were* having sex. I was hoping that over time, the kissing, etc would come. I was trying to be patient while still nurturing our sexual needs, hoping that sex would at least maintain some sort of connection. But that wasn't working so well for me. H is the one who wanted to take things slowly. Whenever I ask about goals for the R, etc, he says "Let's just start out being nice to each other". While I don't see why this has to be mutually exclusive of other things, I have agreed (in my own mind) to put my needs on hold and just practice treating him like I want to be treated, etc. We really do leave a lot to be desired when it comes to treating one another like friends, so I have actually come to agree with H, that the snail's pace is best for now.
I am teetering on the edge of D, moreso than H. If he told me matter of factly that he was just fu@king me, that would pretty much be it for me (it is probably more damaging to say that to a woman than vice versa). I am trying to be patient and am willing to go slow. But you're right, ultimately I do want to feel love for H again and likewise. I do understand the difference between feeling love and that 'in love' feeling. The 'in love' feeling is not what I'm looking for. I know....it is hard to regain. For both partners. But I want my M to work and I want it to be different and better than ever. I do think that some things are being resolved within H. I think he is healing some, there have been indications.

Chrissy:
There actually have been some positives lately (baby steps)and things do seem to be getting some better.
H still won't ride in my vehicle, I don't expect that will ever change and I have entirely submitted in this. I will get a new vehicle as soon as my lease is over. Still have 36 more months.
H has been MUCH better with S5. This started improving a few months back. We still have disagreements about S5's bedtime, etc. but the powerplays, disrespect and exclusion of Mommy have mostly stopped. Perhaps because we are getting along so much better, perhaps because I have just given up on certain things, perhaps because H realized what he was doing. I don't know. It's one of those things we can't discuss because he never acknowledged that it was happening in the first place.
No more abusive instances. Still some control issues. We have had a couple of struggles recently, one was about me going to the MC alone b/c he could't make it (he was *very* angry at me about that) and one was about me attending a business dinner with my boss and two other men, one a partner in our auditing firm and one a consultant who came to discuss some important industry changes which affect my job greatly (H was furious that I would even consider going, much less actually go. He pulled a stunt at the 11th hour that prevented me from going). So, there are still some problems. But overall, I see less anger in him.
My karate is going great, I still love it. I changed schools so that I now attend the same school as my son. H still has issues with the fact that I go, but he doesn't pull powerplays to prevent me from going and is relatively peaceful about it. But he makes it known he doesn't agree with it.
H is not drinking so much anymore. 6 beers and 6 O'Douls at a time twice a week. It's been almost a year now since he's had that routine (ever since I filed for D last year).
There is still a lot that isn't right about our R, but in looking back over where we've been, it's hard not to see that things are better. I just hope we stay that way, getting better.
With our history of power struggles, I would hate for sex to become one of them. Sex has always been an area of mutual satisfaction where we've not had problems except for frequency, which I can and have stepped up. So, I hate to create new problems for us.
On the other hand, I don't think this is really all under my control like H seems to think. He can kiss me at any time, at which point, I would become instantaneously open to sex. If I word it to H like that however, I'm concerned that he will feel like I am indeed using sex to get what I want. But I don't think I am~I was open to sex, we tried that route. That's my defense to that. We really did try that already. I want sex as much as he does, I just don't want to be treated like a street whore, ya know?

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

It's not so uncommon to go from not speaking to discussing sex...it's whatever works for the two of you. You know it's entirely possible he doesn't "intend" to punish you heather...but the kind of hurt he's going through does make it difficult to not be resentful of you. Resentment can lead people to do things that would appear to the other person as "punishing"...is it right, no...does it happen...yes. Please know I'm not bashing you upside the head here...just giving you a different perspective. I remember back with my XH when he was drinking...I resented his drinking sooooo much, I couldn't look at him without glaring. Did I do that intentionally no, but I did it nonetheless.....one day when I turned and looked at him he took 3 steps back and I was completely unaware of what I was doing.

Resentment is a hard thing to work through, so do try to be patient with him. The pain from an affair goes very deep Heather. This is just my perspective, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that the person who cheated has an easier time moving past things than the partner who was cheated on. I would definitely broach his punishing behavior in your counseling sessions though, your C will be able to help him try to get past that resentment, to let it go and see what he's doing is just as destructive to your R. It's my suspicion that he's simply not letting that resentment go....especially since he's fixating on "things". Not letting you sleep in your own bed after 2-years, refusing to ride in your car.

Heather...just posing a question here, but why don't you just go into your own room and sleep in your own bed? What would happen if you refused to leave it? I notice he's had some abusive behavior in the past, would he forcibly remove you? Or would it be possible for you to say something like....this is my bed too and I'm not going anywhere? Just curious. You may have to stand up for yourself a bit. I know you were the one to step out, but it's been 2-years....I'm assuming your behavior has been consistently trustworthy ever since. Maybe it's time for you to start standing up for your rights in the R too.

GEL

[heatherg]

but the kind of hurt he's going through does make it difficult to not be resentful of you....Resentment is a hard thing to work through, so do try to be patient with him. The pain from an affair goes very deep Heather.

I know. I don't know how I would react if the shoe were on the other foot. I had no right to do what I did, he never did anything to deserve such treatment from me.

I resented his drinking sooooo much, I couldn't look at him without glaring. Did I do that intentionally no, but I did it nonetheless.....one day when I turned and looked at him he took 3 steps back and I was completely unaware of what I was doing.

Wow, does that sound familiar. I glared and I did now what I was doing. I made no efforts to conceal my disdain for him. You're right, the resentment is hard, danm hard, to get past, so I do have a tast for what H is experiencing. The A compounded everything and made everything 20X more complex. After it was revealed, I no longer had rights to feel the way I felt because I needed to instantly start showing remorse. It's been the hardest few years of my life for sure and there is much that is unresolved between us. Most of it, I don't really feel much of a need to resolve anymore. It's old, I just want to look forward to happier tomorrows. I'll go through it if he needs to, but for my own healing, I don't think I need to. I think you're right, it seems entirely reasonable in most cases that it would be easier for the cheater to move forward than the person cheated on. In our R, so much transpired before the cheating, it seems to have resulted in a situation where I've actually been the one entertaining thoughts of leaving for the most part.

I would definitely broach his punishing behavior in your counseling sessions though, your C will be able to help him try to get past that resentment, to let it go and see what he's doing is just as destructive to your R.

It's definitely coming out. I think the C sees things pretty clearly and I've been happy with the way she directs the sessions. H seems to like her well enough too, which is like, nothing short of a miracle that we would agree on something so important.

It's my suspicion that he's simply not letting that resentment go....especially since he's fixating on "things". Not letting you sleep in your own bed after 2-years, refusing to ride in your car.

I've gathered from the things H has said that there has to be 'consequences' for my actions. I can't just cheat on him and then resume life as normal. I think these 'things' have been the only way he's been able to exert a little bit of control in a situation he had absolutely no control over.

Heather...just posing a question here, but why don't you just go into your own room and sleep in your own bed? What would happen if you refused to leave it? I notice he's had some abusive behavior in the past, would he forcibly remove you? Or would it be possible for you to say something like....this is my bed too and I'm not going anywhere?

Yeah, I have tried this. My feelings on the bed issue are that it's a control thing. Otherwise, it wouldn't really matter who slept where. I could understand his need to sleep apart from me, but I could never understand his refusal to allow me in my bed. So, I gave it a try. It was probably way too soon to try, it was probably a year or more ago, so the A had just been revealed 6-7 months prior to my attempt. It turned abusive, I still can't really thing about it without crying. He turned on all the lights, ripped the pillow out from under my head, turned on the tv really loud, pulled off the blankets, jumped on the bed, stared at me, put his foot under my head, bouncing my head on his foot. He tried to carry me out. I was crying and just left the room.

You may have to stand up for yourself a bit. I know you were the one to step out, but it's been 2-years....I'm assuming your behavior has been consistently trustworthy ever since. Maybe it's time for you to start standing up for your rights in the R too.

To challenge H is to lose. Seriously. I have tried to stand up for myself and all that happens are power struggles and fights, disrespect and an absolutely unbearable atmosphere to live in.

I don't mean to paint such a negative picture. I want to try to leave the bad stuff in the past as much as possible, although it does still instill fear in me to broach certain subjects or say or do certain things. In this case, since I want to make things work, it's probably better just to let some of these sleeping dogs lie.

[Corri]

Heather:

Wow, does that sound familiar. I glared and I did now what I was doing. I made no efforts to conceal my disdain for him. You're right, the resentment is hard, danm hard, to get past, so I do have a tast for what H is experiencing. The A compounded everything and made everything 20X more complex. After it was revealed, I no longer had rights to feel the way I felt because I needed to instantly start showing remorse.

WHOA. Hold the phone. DO NOT STUFF what you are feeling. You do NOT need to show remorse. Justice is paying for a crime once. Suffering is paying for the same crime over and over again. You express remorse. You display and show that you are serious about your commitment by demonstrating your sincerity and trust every day.

To feel like you HAVE to do something is inviting trouble. You cannot be honest when under these conditions. Freely express your emotions with respect, honor and integrity. Afterall, it takes two people to make a marriage, and two people to rip it appart.

Be accountable for your decisions and actions, absolutely. But that does NOT mean you have to pay for the rest of your life.

It's been the hardest few years of my life for sure and there is much that is unresolved between us.

I'd say it is because you two are still not being honest with one another. MC will help.

In our R, so much transpired before the cheating, it seems to have resulted in a situation where I've actually been the one entertaining thoughts of leaving for the most part.

It is as important for him to realize what he did to contribute to the dismantling of your R as you did. No, he did not force you to have an A. But everything that occurred up to that point he most certainly DID contribute to.

I don't mean to paint such a negative picture. I want to try to leave the bad stuff in the past as much as possible, although it does still instill fear in me to broach certain subjects or say or do certain things. In this case, since I want to make things work, it's probably better just to let some of these sleeping dogs lie.

THIS is the exact problem. THIS dynamic between the two of you is the problem. Nothing has changed in your R.... challenging someone is not necessarily a struggle for power... and rather than say 'challenge him' I suppose the best way to put it is "defend YOU." Defend your boundaries. And if he gets pissy with you, that is HIS problem.

This is going to be uncomfortable for you... but hopefully you will see it as the discomfort associated with personal growth.

You cannot do unto others as you would have them do unto you (respect, honor, integrity, etc.) if you do not FIRST respect, honor, and trust yourself.

Corri

[Chrissy]

Heather

Listen to Corri she is wise. So are many others here.

I am glad your Son is no longer being used as a weapon against you. I remember how heart sick that was making you.
I am glad you have made progress to some extent.

I do wonder if it is possible to brush aside the negative aspects of your life and all the emotional baggage it has created and just concentrate on the good. Or if you have to deal with the negative aspects to allow the relationship to become good.

And regaurdless of what you have done in the past Heather I do not believe that you deserve to be treated as you have been. Your A was not the cause of your unhealty relationship it was a symtom of it. Your H needs to face up to that just as my H does.

[Stigmata]

Heather,

There isn't an M perspective as of yet I see. Perhaps I can offer one as well as a few of my friends here who have been in your H's uncomfortable shoes.

Welcome. I was tempted to take my issues primarily to the Infidelity forum myself at one point recently; since that was/is my biggest R issue.

Your H does not trust you. He is stuffing and eventually his jealousy will get the better of him if he cannot let go of the past. I know because it happened to me.

And that he won't ride in the car with you or kiss you is screaming for help. He is obsessing. He doesn't think he knows everything despite you assuring him otherwise. Every M you are friendly with is an potential new OM to him right now. His gyro is spinning because he probably never saw the A coming...the signs. So he is grasping at any "signs" via a real HeatherG-Ms interaction hypersensitivity and determination not to be fooled again. Sucks.

And it is hitting him in waves. You just have to roll with them. No. You shouldn't have to relive your sins forever but just tell him 2 things.

1. Basically you would rather [insert big misfortune here] than ever ever hurt him like that again. And that something like this will never happen again as long as the 2 of you are together. Might have to say more than once or twice. Yes. Sucks again, but it will fade eventually with reassurance. He needs a LOT of reassurances.

2. You are prepared to be 100 percent honest about any questions he still has about the A. Whatever he wants to know or if he feels the resentment rising up again to come to you so you can discuss it. And if he does, suck it up and spill. Eventually the waves will be fewer and farther between.

An A is a real btch. Takes a lot of time and trying to convert a lot of interior negative dialogue he is currently having to proactive positive moving forward.

One question. Not familiar with sitch. Did he leave after discovery or vice versa? Or was it kind of a lot of initial emotion then quick mutual wishing to get past it and on to applying "fixing/solutions" ASAP while still living together?

Why I ask. I had wished I had left after discovery. Left proximity with her. No contact. Followed by a coming together to hash it out after some time alone/apart to reflect/cool off. Moving too quickly did not allow me to process all of my questions etc. and the resentment waves creeped back in.

I will have more to say about this later. Your H hasn't broken free, as I hadn't done at the time. My sitch actually made it that much tougher on me.

If I had caught x with OM "in flagrante delicto" my choice would have been easy. Seeya. Wouldn't want to be ya.

But she broke it off a few weeks earlier out of feeling she made a huge mistake and her shame/guilt/yes, and I'll say cowardice kept her from telling me. At which point OM constantly called my apt. in a rage over being dumped and spilled the details. Made my life soooo much harder.

...hang in there...

-Stigmata-