I'm back again looking for answers

[RBinBR]

Mama,

I'm a big proponent of doing significant 180's to get the spouse's attention. I know some on this board want to do simple DB techniques and not do anything drastic, but I don't necessarily agree.

I hate to be blunt, but your friend is correct to a certain extent. Telling your H to leave and then wanting him to stay is definitely "doormat" behavior. In my opinion, your H is currently unlikely to alter his behavior because he knows that he can get away with it without any real consequences. If you want him to give up the OW, the first thing you need to do is get your self-respect back -- then you can work on getting him to respect you. Have you read Dr. Dobson's book Love Must Be Tough? I think it has some great advice for you.

I think you are overdue for a big 180. Is OW married? If so, you might thing of talking to her husband.

Or, you might think of kicking him out until he shapes up. I think this is a better strategy for women to use than for men, because I think a lot of men have affairs because they can and they enjoy the chase and conquest, while most women who have affairs believe that they have now discovered their soulmate.

I especially thinking that kicking the bum out is a good strategy if the S cannot run to the OP, as you indicate may be the case.

It is definitely drastic, but I'm glad I did it, and I think NotMarried will tell you she's glad as well.

[Mamabear]

I have the book Love Must Be Tough, I have told my H on several occasions that he must leave. He doesn't. As of this week, I am trying to be better than HER. I do loving things for him without expecting anything in return. I want him to see that the grass is not greener. I don't know, I guess I am weak. I love him and our life and family so much that I don't want to disrupt it. It is not in my nature to be mean. I have done a partial 180 in the fact that I don't question him or ask where he's been or who is is with etc. I act as if I don't care anymore, that I am perfectly happy as I am.

Unfortunately, our finances are such that it would be impossible for either one of us to leave. We should be on Oprah - have you seen the Debt Diet she has going. Anyway, we are both sort of trapped in this situation. I want to make the best of it, my H does not. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. I realize that peoples feelings change. But I also think that if he was so unhappy that he should have clued me in, I am not a mind reader, especially when he always acted like everything was fine. I believe that he is being immature and selfish. Only caring about himself. But that could be the I'm right, your wrong dilema. I don't know...what I do know is this sucks! I could not wish this on my worst enemy. If it were not for my children I really couldn't tell you where I would be. Well...yes I could, probably ten feet under. I have a lot of issues from my childhood and my previous marriage that this has truely pushed me to my limits. But I am a survivor, therefore in the face of everyone (my family and friends who know my situation) I am willing to stick it out. I love this man. End of story.

[grasshopper]

Mama,

I know it must be tough with your financial situation etc. I am in the same boat and my W has already said in no uncertain terms that she would not leave. Of course, I am not leaving either so here we are.
Now, I have not asked my W to leave so my sitch is a little different.
One thing I can add for you right now is that I think it is important to establish how you want to be and try to be consistent. I know that's really hard, especially in light that you are growing by the day, and when you learn new things, or find new information about you, your H, or sitch, it makes you want to change your approach.
Also, the instant gratification/miracle thing is working against a consistent way of being. We all figure that because xxxx didn't work YET, it will never work and we start looking for the next thing to do. This is appropriate for the little changes we all make as part of the DR idea of try something new and then monitor the results. It is somewhat inappropriate for the overall way we approach our sitch.

As usual, the best way I can relate this to you is to use me as an example. Here is how I decided I was going to "be" through all this.
I am going to first of all respect myself and at all times, try to make sure that my actions allow me to do that. It's my main compass. I am not going to talk about the R any more than necessary and I am not going to seek information that will not serve to help the situation should I know it (i.e. no snooping). I am going to improve myself every day in some way. I am going to be respectful of my W even though she may not be to me and that is just an extension of the "love thy enemy" philosophy. I am going to set goals for improving my M, but will not expect them to work until the OM is gone. I am going to tolerate the OM in the picture until such time as it either becomes impossible to do so (i.e. she just throws it in my face) or I decide that enough is enough and that decision will be based on careful consideration and NOT on emotional response. I will NOT pursue leaving or asking my W to leave (this was tough but I just feel based on what I have read and experienced, this is a more desirable way to do this for me). I am going to express the love I feel freely, without guilt or expectation, fully realizing that it is unrequited and could possibly be lost on my W. I am not doing it for her, I am doing it for me.

Those are the basic ideals I try to use as my compass and each one represents one of the major decisions we all have to make. Leave or go, love or go dark, respect or doormat, tolerate the OM or not, R talk or not, etc. Whenever I decide to do something or not (i.e. ask my W about the ring) I check that action against these rules, and also my goals that are a separate thing. In the case of the ring, talking to her would have violated the "useful information" ideal and so I didn't ask because whatever she said would not be useful to me.
I don't mean to say it's as easy as I just made it sound, and honestly, before writing this, it was not so clear to me that I did this, but now that I thought about it, I am sure I do it all the time. If it were EASY though, I would not be here every day venting like you are, but it does help to have a strong sense of who YOU want to be in all this.

Lastly, I think sometimes we lose the basic idea around here that we are all here TO SAVE OUR MARRIAGES! I think we get so wrapped up in all the advice about self improvement that the basic goal of marriage saving gets lost.
I am not saying the cart pulls the horse. We still need to improve ourselves FIRST, but I just think it should not be taboo to think about what effects it will have on our WAS or marriage. You just can't let the effects on the marriage be the only reason you do something or else as soon as it fails to produce expected results, then it get abandoned.
So, for you, try to decide if you want to try to get him out, let him stay, etc. Then act on that decision, meaning if you are going to try to work it out with him in the house, then don't constantly think about how much easier it may be if he were out. Accept your decision and drop all the rest. If you are going to ask him to leave, then really pursue that end and don't stop just because HE reacts a certain way.
As OT said to me, WE are responsible for our pain. It is OUR choice to stick this out and at any time we can choose not to be in pain anymore. If you think of it that way, it makes the pain easier to bear because you have ownership over it, not the other way around.
So, my point is, be consistent as much as you can be, which is being true to YOU because it helps you not react to daily things and stay on track. Sure, if you re-evaluate your position, then maybe a change in course is appropriate, but it should not be done as an emotional reaction but rather due to a calculated change in position.

It looks like it's going to be another one of my long-winded philosophical days...look out board!

Oh, and happy St. Patrick's Day!

GH

[RBinBR]

I am trying to be better than HER

Mama, he doesn't have to choose between you and her -- he can have you both. Trying to be better than her won't accomplish anything.

I do loving things for him without expecting anything in return.

You aren't going to get anything in return, because he can have his cake and eat it too.

I love him and our life and family so much that I don't want to disrupt it. It is not in my nature to be mean.

Demanding that he respect the sanctity of your marriage is not "mean" -- not by a long shot. He has already disrupted the family ... the only question is: what are you going to do about it?

"Loving" someone so much that he can treat you however he wants isn't love, it's co-dependency. Is what is happening right now good for your family? Is everyone as happy and well-adjusted right now as they were before his affair? I imagine not. So, if you really love your family, you'll take action to try to improve it.

Unfortunately, our finances are such that it would be impossible for either one of us to leave.

No, actually this is a huge advantage for you. My W can't afford to leave either. The financial pressure of living on her own is one reason that she was sobbing last night to me about how depressed and stressed she is right now and why she said she's going to try to end it with the OM. Unless life for your H becomes uncomfortable in some respect, there is no reason for his actions to change.

Surely, you could take the kids and move in with someone in your family for a while. Or if the house/apartment is in your name, just change the locks. Or borrow some money from your family so that you can get a legal separation so that you can have the house/apartment and he can pay child support -- from what you wrote, they would probably help you pay for a lawyer.

Mama, what is your plan? If your plan is to do nothing, then nothing will change.

[Mamabear]

Grasshopper, you are truly a wise man who clearly loves his wife. When she comes to her senses I hope she realizes what a wonderful person she is married to.

You hit the nail on the head when you stated not to react to your emotions. I do this all the time. When I found the receipt I immediately told him to leave, I didn't tell him what I found so he didn't know where that came from. I really don't want him to leave I was just reacting to my anger. I was hoping that he would apologize and take me in his arms and tell me everything is going to be allright. Well, that only happens on TV.

Therefore, if I have no expectations then I will have no disappointments. I will try to keep my emotions under control. I wear a rubberband around my wrist and when I feel my anger rise I snap it - hard.

H came home last night at 7:00 very drunk. I was pleasant towards him, didn't question him and gave him dinner. I'm thinking that if he was with OW they must not have a very good relationship if they get totally plastered together. Who knows. I shouldn't assume anything because unless I hire a private investigator I really don't know what is going on.

I look forward to your infinite wisdom and advise. It helps more than you know. Happy St. Paddy's Day to you too!

[grasshopper]

Mama, if you don't mind, I would like to respond to RB too, in hopes to offer you a little more.

Mama, he doesn't have to choose between you and her -- he can have you both. Trying to be better than her won't accomplish anything.

First of all, I totally agree with the idea that trying to be better than her is a useless exercise. Mama, be your best. This is not about her. That is one cliche that I do believe in when it comes to our approach to self improvment. We do not do it to compete with the OP, we do it to compete with the person we became and don't like anymore!
That said, right now I suppose her H does think he's got some self-regenerating cake, and I think Mama can and will do things to change that a bit, but if he's anything like my W, the guilt is eating him up. It seems like he is acting more like someone in turmoil than someone really ready to move on. Well, don't they all.
Also, by saying he doesn't have to choose right now simply because she isn't forcing him to makes the assumption that the DB/DR way can't work. Forcing a resolution to an A IS in the cards, even with DR, but it's not necessarily the only way an A ends, nor should it be done before the LBS is ready to accept the "bad" outcome of their spouse going the other way. If so, why are we all here. Just throw out the ultimatum on day one and take whatever happens.

You aren't going to get anything in return, because he can have his cake and eat it too.

Ok. We say this all the time but what does it mean? Does it mean that NO progress can be made while feelings or actions reguarding the OP are present? My point is that the whole goal of DB is to affect change in another because of YOUR changes. One of the changes her "loving" things, and I am assuming that she is refering to doing certain things that she didn't do before, hence 180's, could make in him, is a more loving, respetful approach to her. Eventually it could lead to him making the decision you say he doesn't have to make. Sure, there could also be no effect at all, but if she is truly just being herself, or making these efforts as a way to grow, then I think it's still fine but it's a tight line to walk. It's up to each of us to be honest with ourselves and decide if we are being codependent or independently loving.

Demanding that he respect the sanctity of your marriage is not "mean" -- not by a long shot. He has already disrupted the family ... the only question is: what are you going to do about it?

"Loving" someone so much that he can treat you however he wants isn't love, it's co-dependency. Is what is happening right now good for your family? Is everyone as happy and well-adjusted right now as they were before his affair? I imagine not. So, if you really love your family, you'll take action to try to improve it.

Actually, RB, in my case, things are quite a bit better for my family now than 3 months ago, or even 1 year ago. This thing has made ME examine my anger issues with my kids, my lack of understanding about a LOT in life and of course, rexamine my interaction with my W, all of which has led, in true DB fashion, to a greatly improved home life.
Am I saying that this A that my W may or may not be continuing is actually helpful? F#$k no! Does the A need to end if it's still going on? Hell yes! Would I rather have it be today than a month from now? Hell yes. Would I involve my kids directly, my extended family directly and pull all kinds of people into this thing just because I can't wait a little while longer to see what is possible wihout all that? Hell no!
For Mama, who's situation is different from mine a bit, she will have to make these decisions for herself.
What I am saying is that through the process of DB, I have made GREAT improvments in myself as a person and a father, that will also make me a much better partner for my W or anyone else should our M not work out. Those things are possible EVEN with the OM still being in the picture. What is not possible is true reconciliation but that can wait.
The idea of her needing to take action to improve "it" is really just saying she needs to put herself first, but I think that can be done in context, without sacrificing things that are truly important to HER even if they are not important to HIM.

No, actually this is a huge advantage for you. My W can't afford to leave either. The financial pressure of living on her own is one reason that she was sobbing last night to me about how depressed and stressed she is right now and why she said she's going to try to end it with the OM. Unless life for your H becomes uncomfortable in some respect, there is no reason for his actions to change.

Again, why would she, or I want pressure to be the reason they change? I don't want to pressure my W into staying. If she wants to go, knowing all the things she is leaving behind, including a husband who loved her to the end and took steps to grow and understand his role in all this, then so be it. I won't use finances, the kids, my pain, her vows, parents, friends, or anything else to pressure her into staying. That's not to say I will help her avoid the ramifications of those things. I am just not going to actively use them against her. The fewer games I can play, the better.

Mama,

I agree with RB to a certain extent after all that. Having a plan is crucial, even if you revise it sometimes. You have to have something to base your actions on, and only you can decide what that plan will be. Only you can decide if the things you do, or allow to be done, are allowing you to maintain self respect. The last thing any of us want is to come out of this not only without a spouse, but no self-esteem either.

GH

[Mamabear]

I wish I knew how to pull quotes....
anyway I do have a plan, I have from day 1 - That is to save my marriage!!! Friends, family and others here tell me to throw the bastard out. They do not have to live my life, only I do. I still have a little bit of hope.

Obviously if I start getting angry and feeling sorry for myself it doesn't get me to my goal. My H has been doing little things, like writing me notes every morning before he leaves for work. We used to do this every day for 12 years, then when the A started the notes stopped. Now they are starting again - baby step? I think so. The other day he asked me to help him move his weight bench, I tried to pick up a 250 lb. bar and he stopped me by saying "that is really heavy, HONEY" - was honey a slip of the tongue? probably, but it sure felt nice to hear words of endearment. He has started doing things around the house again and taking an interest in things, baby step? I think so.
Therefore, I will stop going down cheeseless tunnels. I will not ask him to reconsider working on our R. I will work on it on my own and maybe he will soften long enough to realize what he has. I will also work on my self-esteem, I will not play the role of victim any longer.

Anyway, thanks so much to all of you for your constant support and words of encouragement. Will keep you posted on my progress.

[RBinBR]

GH, I'm glad you wrote a thoughtful post. You bring up a lot of good points and it's clear that you really care about helping Mama (as I do). However, I wanted to respond to a few of the things that you wrote.

First of all, if I understand correctly, Mama, you read Michele's book in November and have been attempting to apply DB principles since then.

That makes for 5 months now, and you say in your first post on this thread that the situation has not improved. To my reading, it appears to be getting worse, but perhaps that's an incorrect impression.

One of the chapters in DR is "Stop Going Down Cheeseless Tunnels." What you are doing is not working. You therefore need to look for a significant 180 to do. In her Experiment and Monitor Results chapter, Michele states that you should re-evaluate what you are doing every two weeks or so to see if what you are doing is having an impact.

if he's anything like my W, the guilt is eating him up.

GH, my W is also eaten up with guilt, but I see no evidence of that with Mama's H. Mama, what do you think?

One of the changes her "loving" things, and I am assuming that she is refering to doing certain things that she didn't do before, hence 180's, could make in him, is a more loving, respetful approach to her. Eventually it could lead to him making the decision you say he doesn't have to make. Sure, there could also be no effect at all, but if she is truly just being herself, or making these efforts as a way to grow, then I think it's still fine but it's a tight line to walk. It's up to each of us to be honest with ourselves and decide if we are being codependent or independently loving.

Mama, I first want to say that I'm not sitting here at my computer and judging you as co-dependent. But ordering him to leave when you don't mean it, and then allowing him to stay, is not DB'ing and it will not cause him to respect you more.

Also, I'm very unsure that doing "loving things" for your H is a 180, as it seems to me that you have done this in the past. In fact, it might be pursuing your H, which is not something you want to do.

Again, why would she, or I want pressure to be the reason they change? I don't want to pressure my W into staying. If she wants to go, knowing all the things she is leaving behind, including a husband who loved her to the end and took steps to grow and understand his role in all this, then so be it. I won't use finances, the kids, my pain, her vows, parents, friends, or anything else to pressure her into staying. That's not to say I will help her avoid the ramifications of those things. I am just not going to actively use them against her. The fewer games I can play, the better.

GH, I haven't played "money games" with my W at all, and I didn't suggest that Mama do so. I don't know where you got that idea. My W wanted her fantasy life with her OM. Allowing her to experience the financial consequences of that decision is not a "game;" it is allowing her to experience reality and recognize that the reality of supporting a bum who is now going to declare bankruptcy is very different from living with a husband who provides a good income for his family.

That isn't ME pressuring her -- that's life pressuring her, and I don't see any reason why her disillusionment with the OM is a bad thing. Let's face it: if most of the OP's we see were perfect people, our S's would have little reason to come back to us.

For Mama to decide to separate herself from her H and force him to accept the consequences of that would not be a "game" either, nor would it be some kind of unfair pressure. She has asked him to leave at times and obviously considered that it might be best for her.

What I am telling you, Mama, is that if you do decide that it is best for you, the DO IT and don't worry that he may have financial problems as a result. It isn't up to you to protect him from financial problems, and if he does have them, that's great.

[RBinBR]

Mama, I see that you wrote while I was writing the previous post.

If your R with your H is improving, that's great! I wrote my previous posts with your first post on this thread in mind, where you stated that there had been no improvement in your sitch after 5 months of DB'ing.

Do keep monitoring and see if the improvement continues, and let us know. I'll be praying for you.

[HarperHall]

LOL - I like to call it the Cheater's Diet - all you eat is bullshit and lies for months & months!

Oh, how I can relate to this! I really don't even know how far it's gone with my husband and the 'cute' girl with a penchant for married male co-workers. He has admitted to exactly and only what I've conclusively proven for myself and have the hard evidence to back up, and no more. But I DO know he lies, and when I conclusively prove that when he said "X," it was a lie, he'll simply deny he ever said "X!" ulling out hair:

End result: left the hospital after childbirth 9.5 months ago at 200 pounds. Today: 130.

I feel like a fraud when people think I'm so great for losing all this weight. But I am at least happy to have lost the weight, and if I can just figure out a way to bottle H and rent him out, I could make my fortune in the weight loss industry!