They postponed my lunch meeting until 2:00, so I just grabbed a quick lunch.
GEL, you are correct that W doesn’t blow up at the girls when I’m around. If something they do sets her off, she vents to me, but says nothing to them. So I know that she can control her behavior toward the girls. And yes, I am left with at least two versions of every incident with no first-hand knowledge. But as you say, with W’s history, I tend to put more weight on the version I hear from the girls. In fact, that was a bone of contention last week; W complained that I never back her up and always take the girls’ side of everything. I told her that wasn’t true. I also told her that with her history and with the venom she spews my direction when I am home during one of these incidents, I consider them to be more reliable.
I have been trying to come up with some sort of boundary statement, but I’m not having any luck. I really like the ideas in what you wrote, but everybody here is well aware of my tendency to over-think. When I try to put something like that into words, I can always shoot it full of holes.
“If you feel it’s appropriate to yell and scream at the girls…” Well sometimes it is. When D14 gets into a car with one of her friends who doesn’t have a license and who obviously can’t drive and lets that girl drive her home, she needs to be yelled and screamed at. It’s stupid, irresponsible, illegal, and incredibly dangerous. I would expect W to yell at her. In that case, it’s very appropriate. So then we have to include some definition of when it’s appropriate and when it’s not. Kind of like porn, it’s hard to define, but I know it when I see it.
“If you feel it’s appropriate to put your animals before your family…” We all feel that way, but W denies it. I have put it to her in exactly those terms and she just flat denies it. I think I mentioned it at the beginning of the thread, she sees it as something that she likes and sees us demanding that she give up that small pleasure. She sees it as entirely appropriate to expect the rest of us to pitch in and help with her out-of-control obsession. She doesn’t see it as either out of control or as an obsession. She sees it as one little thing she does for herself. She sees it as the rest of the family refusing to allow her that one little thing she does for herself. In order to get any value from this, I would need to cite specific instances where she has said or done something that demonstrated that she put the animals first. And of course, she would have a reasonable explanation for each incident and would therefore discount anything I said.
“If you feel you cannot treat us with respect,,,” Again, this is something we all see, but she doesn’t. In her mind, she does treat us with respect. In her mind, we don’t respect her. Since you have some familiarity with NPD, I’m sure I don’t need to try to explain this one any further. For me to get any value from this part of the boundary, I would have to list specific behaviors. And I suspect that trying to pin down a specific behavior would end up just like the specific prohibition against yelling and screaming at the girls.
And finally, “then you need to live elsewhere.” As you have seen with my statement that if she didn’t like it, she knows where the door is, she would take anything of that nature as throwing her out. She wouldn’t hear, “if you can’t do A, B, and C, then you need to leave”; all she would hear is, “You need to leave.” No speculation there – just first-hand, recent experience.
So I am trying to come up with a measurable boundary that I can articulate clearly enough that there won’t be any wiggle room. It’s on the schedule for my next C session. We’re planning to discuss the aftermath of the big blowup and the plan of action now that W didn’t leave.
And let me reiterate, I am looking after D14. The C tells me that the biggest thing she needs right now is to see some stability and protection from me. He said that in her current state, C would be of much less value than it would once this stability and protection are established. He’s pushing me hard to get that control established. I’ve made some steps in that direction and I intend to make more. I’m just kind of floundering right now because I really expected W to leave the past weekend. I’m like a chess player who had his next ten moves planned out, and then his opponent did something completely unexpected and blew the whole strategy. I’m having to reevaluate and devise a new strategy.
Ok let me put it simply to you. Your W has NPD, you are already far too aware of that. In your arguments with her...in setting your boundaries....YOU are trying to use reason with her. You and the girls see something a certain way....she doesn't right? Well reason with someone like this will not work Bube. The best you can do IMPO is state what YOU find reasonable. Your attempt to shoot my boundaries full of holes comes from your attempt to reason your way into her mind. STOP IT.
Of course there are going to be exceptions to the rule of giving a child who does something irresponsible a verbal thrashing. BUT...treating your daughter the way she did when it came to the incident with the dog for example is something you can use as example to her for "inappropriate behavior". There is absolutely no denying in any realm of the imagination that what she did, in that instance, was waaaaaaay out of bounds.
When it comes to her putting her dogs before the rest of the family. YOU will never get her to see it your way....but it IS how you and the girls see it. As a woman with NPD EVERYTHING IS ABOUT HER. So this isn't a battle to get her to understand and see it your way, this is about setting a boundary for you and your girls. All you can do is draw your boundary....if she chooses to make it all about poor neglected her (and she will) stand firm on YOUR boundaries. Ther is no reasonable reason anyone should put any hobby, job, or extra carricular activity.....BEFORE THEIR FAMILY. Once again...if she takes it that you guys won't let her have her one little thing....that shows you right there, she's not reasonable Bube. All you can do is state your boundary.
The respect issue is exactly the same thing. Would it surprise you to hear me say...I fully expected you'd say she doesn't think you guys respect her? Once again, she's NPD it's all about her....the boundary is about how she treats you....and YOU setting that boundary.
When it comes to the boundary about her behavior and leaving....if she hears it the way you say she will well....Bube. Anything coming out of your mouth that sounds like "there's the door" is going to be received that way. You could say it in the nicest possible terms and give her every single opportunity to stay and even throw in there "I want you to stay" and she'd still hear "you need to leave."
I hear what you are saying my friend, I truly do.....but you are trying to use reason, where reason really doesn't exist. You've got to try to remember, when it comes to your W....IT'S ALL ABOUT HER in her mind.
Consideration of other people really doesn't matter to someone with NPD because they are so very wrapped up in themselves.
I'm not saying any of this to tear her down, it's just a realistic view of her. No doubt she's got wonderful qualities, no doubt you've had some wonderful times with her....and no doubt you still love her. BUT you are still trying to use reason where reason doesn't exist.
You've got to stop trying to interperet how she will take something to try to accomodate her, in order to get her to understand.....so you don't accidentally say something that she will interperet even worse. Drawing a boundary for you and your girls is about YOU & YOUR GIRLS.
I'm just trying to help you see where a stumbling block for you is.
Now I’m seeing a different angle based on your last post. Those boundary examples you gave are doomed to failure in my opinion. They will not only fail with your W but anyone else too. Look at them…
“If you feel it’s appropriate to yell and scream at the girls…” “If you feel it’s appropriate to put your animals before your family…” “If you feel you cannot treat us with respect,,,”
.. .they are all subjective and open to interpretation. Of course she will say she feels like she is being appropriate or she feels she is treating you with respect. Then you’re left arguing over word definitions. Nope, you are leaving the door wide open here.
The problem with NPDs is they are clueless to how others feel. She needs to learn to read other people and stop focusing on her own feelings. You and her seem to go in circles arguing over interpretations, trying to convince each other your view of reality is correct. This is no right answer to that. The comment I made to Nicegal (?) about mirroring what each other has said, to fully understanding the meaning of what the two of you are saying and feeling would be a good starting point.
I am seeing the two of you so tightly enmeshed you are each blind to yourself. Why in the world do you think it is ok to yell and scream at your daughter for doing something wrong, no matter how serious. There is already too much of that going on. Laying on more will not help. D14 has been trained by YOU to ignore yelling. She has seen over the years that when people yell, you just ignore them and do what ever you wanted to do. There or no consequences, so just endure the noise and you can go about your business. You are not setting boundaries with your daughter any more than you re setting them with your wife.
Do you see the similarity? You follow the same process as your wife, fall into the same logic, take the same actions. The only difference is in the degree of severity. Sure, your wife will not listen to the counselor. He knows this. But I’m willing to be he knows there is only so much that you will listen to also. I did not think his emails to you were very strong or direct. Especially the first one you posted. Only by the 4th email, after you pursued him, did he get more direct. Why? Because you won’t listen either. Do you see the enmeshment? You are a junior version of your wife!
Like GEL says, you are using reason, trying to intellectualize your views to differentiate yourself from your wife. But that is only a front to convince yourself that you are right, the more healthy person, the better person. It gives you a superior position and is why you have been focusing on her problems, not yours. Don’t think she doesn’t feel this. She is more aware than most people when she is being attacked. This is a power and control struggle similar to what my wife and I were/are experiencing. It is rooted in fear.
I’m beginning to think your level of denial is every bit as strong as your wife, which would make perfect sense. What would NOT makes sense is that she is so unhealthy, so emotionally disturbed and you are “normal.” That just can’t be. You two would never have gotten together in the first place. Flat out impossible.
The “stuckness” of your marriage is hinging on you. She will not fix it. She cannot fix it. You cannot fix her. You CAN reign her in and keep her damage confined. But until you understand where you stand in all of this, I don’t see how you can do your part either. I think you are going to have to face your deepest demons, uncover your fears and vulnerabilities, find your inner strength and then confront your wife.
I agree with GEL that you cannot reason with her. Logic will not work. You must simply state what is not acceptable and leave it at that. Do not begin your boundary statement with an "if," unless that "if" precedes a statement about her behavior, e.g.,"If I see you or hear of you physically striking one of the girls ever again, your bags will be on the curb."
Regarding whether the older girls are in a position to know if they need therapy: most people who are resistant to therapy (this is just my observation) are resistant for a couple of reasons (there may be more).
First, because they think the therapist is going to try to change their mind about something. I have observed that people think therapists have an agenda, that therapists think their job is to persuade you to see the error of your ways and come around to their way of thinking. So the girls may think that the therapy process will be all about forcing them to understand their mother and forgive her before they are ready. Or they may fear that they will be forced to say ugly things about their mother and hate her. They may think that whatever they say will become public knowledge to you and their mom, and there may be things they need to say with the assurance that neither one of you will ever hear them. And they may also fear that if they go to your therapist, that that therapist is already automatically on "your side," and that their opinions won't count.
The second reason people resist, IMHO, is that they see therapy as punishment, or at the very least, as a sign that they have failed at something. Like a tutor-- if you were doing well in class, you wouldn't need a tutor. It's someone to help you because you're too dumb, inept, stupid, weak to help yourself. To HAVE to go to therapy is an admission of failure, it's humiliating to parade your mistakes, icky feelings, hateful thoughts, creepy shadowy wishes, etc. in front of a stranger who you are POSITIVE is going to judge you.
I remember an astonishing exchange that took place on the Phil Donohue show many many years ago. I forget what the topic was, but it had to do with a couple that was having some kind of problem. The guest suggested that perhaps the husband and the relationship would benefit if the husband were to consult a psychiatrist. Phil had this HUGE outburst: "Why should HE have to go to a psychiatrist??? HE didn't do anything WRONG!!" This supposedly enlightened man saw consulting a psychiatrist as PUNISHMENT.
So I agree that your kids do not know what's good for them in this case. They may seem very "well-adjusted" on the surface, but they will be grappling with the fallout from this situation for the rest of their lives...
It could start with the three (or four) of you going together and you could ask them to go for YOU, because YOU need help, and it would help you if they would go.
I must say, you ARE the man-o-steel for letting us gang up on you this way. (((((bube)))))
I don’t know about the others, but I don’t want to be seen as ganging up on V-Bube. I see here a chance to do something truly good for others, his kids. V-Bube is at a crossroads and we are all help to help him.
V-Bube,
Please see this as the information vital to your family, worth its weight in gold! I don’t want to tell you that you are a man-of-steel. That would only add another layer to the mask you wear. This is about facing your vulnerability for the sake of others. Facing yourself is the true sacrifice you can make for your kids, not that martyrdom of enduring years of abuse. That is not sacrifice. That is just poor modeling.
Quote: I don’t know about the others, but I don’t want to be seen as ganging up on V-Bube.
I don't think we are either. I meant that a bit tongue in cheek.
It was not just a random comment. The purpose of the statement was as follows: If he didn't feel like we are ganging up on him, then his response to the statement would be the same as yours, namely, "but you're not."
But just in case he was feeling like we were ganging up on him, that statement would meet him at that place, connect with him there, and validate the feeling of being "ganged up on." It was a statement designed to show empathy and sincere admiration of his willingness to pay such close attention to our lengthy comments.
GEL, I know it’s all about her. I’ve known it since long before I heard the diagnosis. That’s precisely why I know that I could never try the kind of boundary that you suggested. What I see as inappropriate behavior is perceived completely differently through the lens of “her”. That’s why I’ve rejected everything I’ve come up with (and what you suggested as well). I like what Lil said. Specific behaviors and specific consequences, neither of which leave any room for interpretation.
One big problem I have is that W (and D18) have a real talent for deflecting and pointing out the faults of the accuser. Not the right word, but I’m stuck here. The fact is that I am guilty of just about everything that I could tell W is unacceptable behavior. What W could never understand is that it’s an issue of degree and self control. I hate to say this because I just know that somebody’s going to jump on it and misconstrue it, but I have smacked D14. But when I did (and it’s been years) it was controlled and done for a purpose other than venting my anger. I hate to use a dog in my metaphor, but even when I did hit her, spank her really, it was akin to the difference in giving your dog a whack with a rolled up newspaper and kicking it or beating it with a stick. But if I were to quote Lil directly, “If I see you or hear of you physically striking one of the girls ever again”, I have no doubt that her immediate response would be that I have hit her too. Her immediate response would be that I think I am perfect while being hyper-critical of her every action. I heard it last week, I know.
But in reality, that’s a fairly easy one too. I could simply tell her that I don’t think I’m perfect, that I shouldn’t have hit D14 either, and that I’ll abide by the same rules I set for her. Case closed. The real problem comes with setting boundaries where it’s not so black and white. How do you draw a boundary where the issue is one of timing, appropriateness, and degree? I think it’s inappropriate to call your daughter a brainless idiot when she gets out of a truck being driven(?) by an incompetent 14 year-old. Something needs to be said and there needs to be some consequence for having made such a poor decision, but “brainless idiot”, I don’t think so. Do you think that’s appropriate? Does the person sitting next to you? Does my W? Is it appropriate to say, “you were stupid” in this case? Is, “that was stupid” better? Enough better? Do you see my problem?
Cobra, there is some merit to what you say, but I still can’t say that I agree with you. You are correct in saying that in some cases W and I have the same reactions and take the same actions with the only difference being in degree. I don’t agree that there is any problem with that. To go back to the dog analogy, in some cases it is entirely correct to give your dog a whack with a rolled up newspaper. But it is never correct to beat the dog. If you’re saying that it’s never correct to spank or otherwise strike a child, all I can say is that we’ll just have to agree to disagree there. No amount of argument will change my opinion, so don’t bother.
The same applies to yelling and/or screaming. I seldom yell or scream at my children. When I do, they know it’s serious. That’s in complete contrast to W who screams all the time and is ignored. How many times have you ever heard people talking about someone else and saying something like, “She said the F-word! She never says the F-word, she must have really been mad.” Frequency, degree, and context do matter. The girls haven’t learned that yelling is something to be ignored; they’ve learned that W’s yelling is something to be ignored. That’s an important difference.
You don’t think the C has been strong or direct? What is weak or indirect about, “Tell her to pack her bags and get out”? Again, I invite you to tell me how he could have said it that would have appeared to you to be stronger or more direct.
I agree with the rest of what you said. My responses, or lack thereof have been rooted in fear. Last week that fear started to fall away. Some of it is still lingering, but it’s seriously weakened. I also agree that it’s all hinging on me. She won’t fix it, she can’t fix it, and I can’t fix her. I know that. I know that only I have the power to fix it. I’ve know that intellectually for a long time, but only in the aftermath of this latest blowup has it really begun to sink in. I now it’s going to be hard and painful. I’ve come to grips with the NPD diagnosis, but I’m still getting used to this power thing. I’ll get there.
And finally, for today anyway, I don’t think you’re ganging up on me. I think that you’re all genuinely trying to be helpful. I don’t feel attacked. I’ll admit to feeling misunderstood in places, but never attacked. Like I keep saying, thanks for your responses. Even if I don’t agree with some of the things being said, I do believe that they’re honestly felt and I do believe that they’re worth chewing on for a while before dismissing them.
I think the most prevalent problem here is that you're not moving as fast as we'd (and your D's) would like to see on this. However, I am glad to finally "understand" that you know your W can't change and you can't make her. All you can do is change your own circumstances. Good luck!!!
I think we are actually in the same camp on much of the principals were talking about here. I actually believe a certain, controlled amount of corporal punishment has value, more for boys than girls (I wish they would bring it back in schools, just do a better job of policing its use). But the reason I object to it in your situation is that you and your W need to do a 180 in the treatment of your kids. In a healthier situation, I don’t think spanking would be an issue. At the moment, I think your D14 is acting out intentionally, knowing full well the consequences of her actions and how it will affect you. She is trying to gain a measure of control over her chaos – control over your and your W – in exactly the same manner she has been modeled. Just push the envelope until the other person backs down. If they don’t, then raise the ante. So do you see that increasing the punishment will only cause her to raise her ante?
I think she wants to behave, that she wants to be good, that she wants peace and serenity but the only way she, or any child can make their voice heard when the parents don’t listen and respect the children otherwise, is to act out.
One big problem I have is that W (and D18) have a real talent for deflecting and pointing out the faults of the accuser.
This is the right word and it is exactly what is happening. The reason is because no one is willing to accept their faults. The reason for that is due to lack of confidence and self esteem, a strong self image, and an understanding of how healthy relations should be conducted. So rather than “own up” to your faults, you turn the argument around on the other person.
For some reason I’m thinking you’ve mentioned Schnarch before. The first section of his book talks directly to this problem. He talks about reflected sense of self, differentiation, borrowed functioning, fusion, etc. What you describe is exactly what I went through with my mother (who I also think is NPD). Schnarch does a good job in analyzing this dynamic. Read up on it. Your wife cannot play this game without you (at least not to the degree she does). Also, have your read up on verbally abusive people?
No forget that. I want to buy you a beer. Thank yourself VB, and see that this is the second time you have given your wife a boundary and she has complied. Please. See it. Then say to yourself, 'I dun good.' I dont even care if you understand it at this point. Just see it and know that it works. Then DO what works.
So does somebody want to explain to me what just happened?
Bud, we can explain it four differnent ways in four different languages. Untill you have these sort of emotional a-has, and see that the counter intuitive is what works, all the explanations and words in the world wont make a difference to you.
Let me try one more time. summing up.
being a 'nice guy' is not what is going to work.
FWIW, you were strong, unyielding in your boundary, and --as soon as you stopped telling her that you wanted her to stay -you were NOT placating or supplicating.
VB. I wont go so far as to say you are a man o steel (yet- only the accomplished and succesful Nopkins gets that award from me.... ) but every journey begins with 1 step and you have made a couple of huge ones.
you are making me smile with your first few steps. Sincerely. She even reached out to you with a physical communication of affection. Do you see this?
Yes, but it confuses you still, most likely.
The advice is coming thick and fast now. Dont get overwhelmed. You see, now, that your D's have been hurt and I am sure that will encourage you to make future boundaries just as strong.
Drop the IF's froms your statements and also, there is no need to overwhelm yourself and your W with future probabilities. 1 day at a time, and tell her 'NO, thats not acceptable'- when you see it. Without flinching.
Im not gonna wish you luck. You can do it. You can protect yourself, and your D's. What your W decides to do outside of those boundaries is her issue.
You may be yet surprised. There is still much for you to learn in this R.
Thank yourself VB, and see that this is the second time you have given your wife a boundary and she has complied. Please. See it. Then say to yourself, 'I dun good.' 
) but every journey begins with 1 step and you have made a couple of huge ones.