It sounds like intimacy is not something your W if ready for yet. I know that sucks, but you have lived without it for this long so a little while longer will be ok. Your expectations are aimed too high right now and therefore you are experiencing disappointment when she reacts to you that way. Take a step back and maybe try again in a week. You don't want to appear to be pressuring her when you are on the brink of something good.
Anyway, that's my two cents, (for what it's worth...)
Oh, Mama, I have already stepped back after that awkward kiss thing last night. The problem is that if I don't automatically start rubbing her back when we go to bed, or are sitting on the couch, she acts like I am "acting strange" because I always do it. Sure, I could refrain, but then she asks and acts irritated when she does. She used to say that all the time, that she always had to ASK me to do things like that, and how come I just didn't do them on my own (um...I guess I could ask her the same question...in due time). SO, I am trying, but it's hard when her mood, or acceptance changes moment by moment.
So, my overall idea is that I am going to continue the back rub thing when appropriate but maybe just try to not be in situations where I do it so much, and as for anything else, just back off for awhile.
I am just wondering then how I know when she's ready. If I keep "doing" things like the kiss last night, she may see it as unwanted pressure. Overall, I am ok with this. I guess she'll let me know when she's ready. Until then I try NOT to pursue so much and just go on working on me.
BTW, I started a new workout program a couple days ago. I want to tone a bit now that I am at my target weight. I don't have time to go to the gym anymore so I am working out at home. It's going well so far. I'm in pain so I guess I am doing something right, lol.
I recently started the program called the ABSDiet and it works great. Check out www.absdiet.com It came from Men's Health Magazine and the best part is you are only ajusting your combinations of foods each meal. I dropped 5 lbs. in a week from the program.
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
Thanks for the info but I just finished the LBS diet and DON'T need to lose ANY more weight. In the first month or so of this I lost 20 pounds and I only started at 178 (5'10"). I am now at 156 and don't want to be any lighter than that. I just want to build a little muscle and tone what I already have.
You weren't big to begin with but I bet you feel great. Toning is what I am working on now too. Has your wife commented on your new look at all? Mine tells me I look better than I have in years, (I guess not good enough to touch yet though...) Don't get down on yourself, this isn't about you. Your wife has to get over the OM and then feel safe again around you. Patience is definitely a virtue. Something I never knew I had until now.
Wow GH, it sounds like you are really starting to come to grips with your own intimacy issues -- insecurity in approaching W, unsure of basic skills like kissing, poor body image that leads to you rejecting W's touch, etc... It is great that you are recognizing these things. I am reflecting them back to you to help you see the picture you are painting of a man with huge intimacy issues who is confused about W's lack of interest in intimacy. I think it especially important that you have rejected her touch, as you yourself know, that is very painful and pretty much kills sexual interest. It is extremely important that you stay aware of your contribution to the overall intimacy problem before this point. Also, keep an eye out for how you continue to contribute to it. Have you worked with your T on this???
Anyway, what is going on now w/intimacy? Your W is flinching -- why, you don't know. Maybe it tickles, maybe it causes her pain because she wants something much more in terms of a passionate intimate R than she has ever received from you and you are giving her *more of the same*, maybe it is because she is considering going back to OM, maybe it is because she is mourning OM. Of course, maybe she is mourning OM because she sees that loss as giving up her only chance to have a passionate SL because even after all this, all you are giving her is more of the same.
Is what you are doing now working? It doesn't seem to be. Stop doing what doesn't work. If she asks why you aren't rubbing her back or kissing her neck, tell her the truth -- it doesn't seem to be working for her so it isn't working for you.
STOP with all the asexual egg-shell walking. Really, how likely do you think that is to make W hot for you??
And, this you really won't like. I'd suggest you read the thread in the SSM of Faking Os, beginning with the earlier posts on Chrom's thread. I suggested this to Rob based on comments he made about his SL, but he rejected it flat out. I'll suggest it to you, and I won't be surprised if you do the same. Things you have said recently suggest to me that your W has been faking a lot of Os with you. My bet would be that things seem OK once IC starts because she is faking to make you feel good and get things over with. I will not try to convince you of this as in my experience this kind of thing cannot be heard my Hs for some reason. Suffice it to say that her being sexually satisfied after you are finished, frequent simultaneous Os, and her requiring little stimulation other than IC to O are strong signs of faking. Denying faking, flushing, feeling contractions, trembling, sweating, etc... DO NOT show that your W is not faking. Notice that if she has a faking problem with you, this is something she could hope to avoid with OM.
My other bet is that her comments about wanting other kinds of intimacy rather than just sex means that she wants much more foreplay, of different kinds than she is getting, and much more afterplay so that she has a chance to have a SL that is fulfilling to her.
Anyway, I would repeat my advice -- quit being tentative and do something totally different. Take her on a picnic in an excluded area and press her down in the grass and kiss her passionately. Take her out dancing again and dirty dance with and feel her up in the car on your way home. Come home from work and tell her exactly what you want her to do in explicit detail. What can it hurt to treat her as a hot, sexual woman who requires passion?
Probably not as much as continuing to treat her like your sister in the hopes that her loins will begin to burn for you.
Yes, I am trying to shock you. Even if you refuse to try something new, at the very least stop doing what you are doing. It is not working.
That makes me wonder why you are doing it. Does it allow you to mask your own intimacy problems and put the blame on her?
P.S. If you MUST continue the backrubs and neck kissing, then at least try to communicate directly when she flinches. "Oh no, I feel like that made you flinch. I am so sorry if I made you uncomfortable. Did I and if so can you talk about why?"
Quote: P.S. If you MUST continue the backrubs and neck kissing, then at least try to communicate directly when she flinches. "Oh no, I feel like that made you flinch. I am so sorry if I made you uncomfortable. Did I and if so can you talk about why?"
Can I just ignore all that other stuff and go right to this...lol..kidding...sorta.
Quote: It is great that you are recognizing these things. I am reflecting them back to you to help you see the picture you are painting of a man with huge intimacy issues who is confused about W's lack of interest in intimacy.
Thanks, I think. I didn't really know I was painting that picture, but in my mind I guess I was. Like so much else about my relationship, this too seems SO clear to me now. I'm NOT saying I have it all figured out, but I really think once things, or IF things ever get "started" again between us, she will KNOW that I understand some things.
Quote: I think it especially important that you have rejected her touch, as you yourself know, that is very painful and pretty much kills sexual interest.
Well, I don't know how common this is but my rejection of her touch was NOT because I didn't like it, but because I just wanted to give to her. I always figured she wanted that too so it was no big deal. Now that you put it that way, I can think back to specific times, and times when I realized that my W was not "doing" certain things anymore and I wondered why. Why was I so ignorant as to what was happening. Of course she was feeling rejected. She probably thought I was not accepting her touching me because I did't like it, or she wasn't doing something right, or whatever, but bottom line, to her it was rejection. WOW! Something so easy to see was TOTALLY lost on me until now.
Quote: It is extremely important that you stay aware of your contribution to the overall intimacy problem before this point. Also, keep an eye out for how you continue to contribute to it. Have you worked with your T on this???
I am going to. I think you slapped me down a few weeks ago because I was starting to, totally independent of my W and our intimacy or lack thereof, realize that this was a problem and wanted to start exploring it. My T DID start exploring it with me because she came to the same conclusion last session. I think I will bump it up on the priority list to talk to her about.
Quote: Is what you are doing now working? It doesn't seem to be. Stop doing what doesn't work. If she asks why you aren't rubbing her back or kissing her neck, tell her the truth -- it doesn't seem to be working for her so it isn't working for you.
Ok, if you mean working in the sense of creating intimacy or leading to ML, no, but I am not giving the rubs to initiate sex. Would I mind if it did? Well no, but then again, I don't want more of the same any more than she does. Back rub=sex is much more of the same. No thanks. As for kissing her on the neck, it was more of a wet peck, not a kiss intended to lead to anything. She knows the difference and still pulled away.
Quote: STOP with all the asexual egg-shell walking. Really, how likely do you think that is to make W hot for you??
I am realizing that there is probably SO much baggage I was never even close to understanding in this area that I frankly don't think anything I just "do" will make her hot for me. I think my overall getting in shape, my confidence, my change in attitude will go a long way in tickling her mind. As for the body, I just think we have a ways to go before she can separate the idea of how I was from how I would be acting. Does that make sense? I AM doing different things, but it seems like direct approaches, moving in to kiss her, etc, are being rejected outright.
Quote: And, this you really won't like. I'd suggest you read the thread in the SSM of Faking Os, beginning with the earlier posts on Chrom's thread.
Ok, again, this is beyond where I am right now. I will worry about that when the time comes...or doesn't. I know that happens, and now that I know what I know about my issues, I am sure there are a myriad of areas where I have one view of our SL and she another. This is just one of them and somehow I will have to figure things out. Again, all this is leading me to think she and I need to really have a open, honest discussion about our SL when the time comes that it's an issue for us again, which I really think it's too soon to be now.
Quote: Anyway, I would repeat my advice -- quit being tentative and do something totally different. Take her on a picnic in an excluded area and press her down in the grass and kiss her passionately. Take her out dancing again and dirty dance with and feel her up in the car on your way home. Come home from work and tell her exactly what you want her to do in explicit detail. What can it hurt to treat her as a hot, sexual woman who requires passion?
Ok, again, when I approach her with what I think is passion, she runs right now. Maybe I am not doing it right, but then again, since I may NEVER have been doing it right, it's hard to know. I THINK I know the difference between passion and desperation but I am also willing to admit that my confidence is not exactly at an all time high. I have suggested going out now that we are home and she seems to have little interest. She's just back into our old routine again, which I hate. As for treating her as a hot sexual woman who requires passion, well, because it's never been me treating her as a sister so much as she thinking of me as a brother. Of course that's mostly, if not ALL due to my issues. I really need to "do something different" but if she is totally closed off to me, as she says she is, and acts like she is, then it makes it hard to do. Ah, but hard is NOT impossible. To me, it is VERY clear that she is considering any advance by me to be pressure (she said that in Ireland, and has acted like it now that we're home). I just think she's just not ready, and I hesitate to consider why. I am willing to wait so long as progress seems to be made.
Quote: That makes me wonder why you are doing it. Does it allow you to mask your own intimacy problems and put the blame on her?
Ok, I was going to say this at the top, but this is a perfect place to say it; up to now YOU have been telling me that I have no real R and so long as my W is not in an romantic relationship with me, I should not "be" in one with her. Well, that is where I am at. Sure, she has made overtures, but nothing like a recommitting to our R in a honest and meaningful way and while I am ok putting out feelers, or asking direct questions of her, so long as she is vague about where she stands with us, or the OM in her life, I am not comfortable going all out in terms of our intimate relationship. I think it would be a mistake right now.
Now, as for the rubs, I give the back rubs to just let her know I am open to touching her and I guess honestly because I know she has ways of letting me know SHE'S open to more when I do that. That is a reach though. Mainly, I do it because she likes it and not much more. It is NOT sexual to me anymore so I can continue that without really exploring my issues at all. I don't really understand how it puts blame on her other than I guess her feeling like I am always expecting more and she has to be the one to deny it?
Anyway, this is a bit of a mess, and something I/we just need to deal with. I do think there is a conversation my W and I need to have. This is one place where I think talk can do some good because there is SO much misunderstanding between us about what the other wants and needs, that I feel any changes I make are as likely to be misunderstood as make a positive difference. One of the worst things in all this is that even before the bombs dropped, I felt she just didn't notice me at all. Well, now that I am in shape, working out, dressing MUCH better, generally giving a damn about how I look, more confident and happy, AND she's SURE it's because I want to and not becuase I am trying to impress her, she IS starting to notice. She's complimenting me more than ever. I catch her looking at me sometimes. I know things can and probably will get better. I just need to make sure I AM doing things differently both to initiate, and sustain our intimacy. I also know that won't happen by osmosis. The sad thing is that all I really want to do is kiss her...
I really thank you for helping me with this. It is a VERY uncomfortable subject for me and one I think my T will have to give a good assist on if I am going to get to where I need to be.
OT, I am also thinking of this whole process of moving beyond the crisis towards rebuilding a M as a long, slow walk through a minefield, where at any point I could step on a live one.
Well, I think this topic of intimacy is one of the BIG live ones and possibly the key to most of what went wrong in our M. The more I think about it, the more I can tie a lot of our problems to this. I guess to continue with the analogy I made, I have my foot on the mine and don't want to step off until I have some plan on how not to have it blow me to bits...lol.
and DON'T need to lose ANY more weight. In the first month or so of this I lost 20 pounds and I only started at 178 (5'10"). I am now at 156 and don't want to be any lighter than that. I just want to build a little muscle and tone what I already have. 