Quote: R's just "happen" and you shouldn't have to work on them to make it work...sort of a romanticized view if you ask me.
Seems like this is the pattern the WA's have! Idealizing R's.
Quote: The most important thing I think you/I need to consider in all this is this; we both seem to have accepted that our W's do not, and maybe never will open up to us. You also seem to have said (correct me if I am wrong) that much like my W, yours seems to not go FAR out of her way to learn what makes you happy and do those things (well, for that matter, I guess neither did we really). I am NOT saying they don't want us to be happy and aren't willing to affect that, just that since they are not verbal creatures, they rely on their perception of what makes us happy (often really just a projection of what makes THEM happy) to guide them in their interaction with us and ultimatly they fall short of meeting our needs/desires, and vice versa btw. Here is the important part. Ok, they don't do those things with US, but are we sure they don't do it with OM? We seem to believe it is a character trait in our W's that causes them to be non-communicative, but what if it's a character trait of our relationships and really just a dynamic that has either grown to be, or has always been for whatever reason. Is it a fatal flaw or something that can be worked on? My point is that I am afraid that my W IS open, honest and eager to please this other man, and of course, him to her. Actually, it seems clear that she probably is so what does that mean? I know it means a whole ton of things that I could post about forever, but the main point is that I/we may need to realize that it IS possible for our W's to communicate their needs, and for them to WANT to hear ours but they are just NOT right now. Did they ever? Could they ever again?
All right - I think I may be in bitch mode today....I apologize in advance. I think you guys may be wandering down the wrong path here. What I mean is - you're focusing waaaayyyy tooo much on the OP and that R. Focus on yourselves. Face it that you are in LIMBO right now. A disturbing, unhappy place to be. Hell on Earth. However, you are going to be there until your W decides otherwise. Or until YOU decide otherwise. I, too have the same communication problems with my SO. But instead of focusing on the our "R" communication issues, I work on them in other areas, like the kids. It's a start, anyway. I can't force him to work on us. Don't bend over backwards all the time to try and get your W to come around. You are not in a happy, healthy, M right now. Stop trying to meet all of your perceived W's needs. She's not meeting yours. So, you have to meet your own until the day comes that she decides she wants to work on things with you.
Here's some things from other posts that I've read and found helpful:
Quote: "The biggest roblems for me are a lack of patience and a failure to recognize that letting MY needs creep into my efforts only slows the whole process down and frustrates me even more."
and...here's a really good one:
Quote: "Are you expecting whatever you're going to do to be the 'one big thing' to help turn their head around, and profess their undying love to you? If so, how are you going to handle the disappointment of your unfulfilled expectations if they don't? Will you be willing to keep up with your efforts, and maybe just change a few things, or will it make you give up? That is exactly what I have done up until now. In my sitch a big part of the S and hurt feelings was because I was withdrawn and distant with my W. At first I persued hard, and it immiediately pushed her away. Luckily I found Michelles books and stopped. I backed off and started showing her I cared through my actions. But I expected each thing I did to be the big "miricale" that brought her back. ...And when it didn't happen I would get hurt and mad and say thigns out of anger I didn't mean. Then I would back off for awhile and then do it all again. The really bad thing here is that when I was showing her I care and being there for her, that was WORKING. I just didn't se it and didn't give it enough time. Then I would screw it up and go back to the way I was in the M ---which is just what she expected. It really hurt and confused my wife. And now it may be to late. But I am not giving up. In my sitch my W needs consistant, honest, unconditional, caring, with nothing expected in return, in order to break down her wall.---At least I think----Thats what I am going to do."
There's a couple other, too, that I'm trying to search for and will post once I've found. I printed them out a while ago and didn't save the links - duh! Hope they help.
GH - just saw your post. Yuo're right - the OP does become a problem IF your W says she is working on the M and is still seeing the OP. But that's not the case - YET. Right?
Quote: All right - I think I may be in bitch mode today....I apologize in advance.
Nope. No need.
Quote: I think you guys may be wandering down the wrong path here. What I mean is - you're focusing waaaayyyy tooo much on the OP and that R. Focus on yourselves. Face it that you are in LIMBO right now. A disturbing, unhappy place to be. Hell on Earth. However, you are going to be there until your W decides otherwise. Or until YOU decide otherwise. I, too have the same communication problems with my SO. But instead of focusing on the our "R" communication issues, I work on them in other areas, like the kids. It's a start, anyway. I can't force him to work on us. Don't bend over backwards all the time to try and get your W to come around. You are not in a happy, healthy, M right now. Stop trying to meet all of your perceived W's needs. She's not meeting yours. So, you have to meet your own until the day comes that she decides she wants to work on things with you.
True. I guess some of my posts, even on my own thread, are really reacting to Rob's sitch and not mine. In his sitch, his W says she WANT'S to make things better and is commited to makeing their M work so in his case, I don't think it's too bad for him to examine the communication issues.
In MY case, I guess I am looking down the road that may never exist for me, to a time when communication will matter once again. I agree with you. If I am spending much time on that, and I'm not really, I need to stop. As for my idea that I may have 180's to do or something like that, it's only with the idea that I will just be changing things I do not like about myself, that also happened to contribute to the lack of communication.
As for limbo as hell. Couldn't agree more. It truly is.
Quote: "The biggest roblems for me are a lack of patience and a failure to recognize that letting MY needs creep into my efforts only slows the whole process down and frustrates me even more."
No doubt. I am one of the least patient people I know. I have worked REALLY hard on that aspect of my life. It has paid off so far. I'm still here, sticking this out, and that's a testament to how far I have come. I would have never thought I could last this long.
Quote: "Are you expecting whatever you're going to do to be the 'one big thing' to help turn their head around, and profess their undying love to you? If so, how are you going to handle the disappointment of your unfulfilled expectations if they don't? Will you be willing to keep up with your efforts, and maybe just change a few things, or will it make you give up?
VERY nice. Of course we all think this, and it's why many of us fail. We pin our hopes on each new thing we try. Each new piece of advice will be the life changing one that will put us over the top. Each new day DBing will be the one that makes our WAS notice and come running back. Yea, count me in that group, but I think I have managed to realize that trap early on and while I still fall for it now and again, I avoid it more often than not. This is a long process and I am trying to stick with it for the duration.
Quote: GH - just saw your post. Yuo're right - the OP does become a problem IF your W says she is working on the M and is still seeing the OP. But that's not the case - YET. Right?
Again, the duality of the PArob/GH experiecne is at work here too. No, my W has not come out and SAID that like Rob's has, but she is expressing it in the way I have always known her to express things; through actions. You see, my W is the kind of person who will make an important decision, change, or some other thing that most people would just tell you about (i.e. I am not eating so and so anymore, or I don't want to have $ex with you anymore) and just BE that way from then on, expecting you to catch on that she's made the decision or changed somehow. I am almost certain that when the time comes for my W to drop the OM, she will NOT tell me she's done it. She will simply try to SHOW me that he's not around by, well, by doing something, but you get my point. The woman does not believe in communicating those things directly, or at least I don't remember a time when she did. Who knows, maybe that's changed about her now and she's just not told me...lol.
Thank you for the post, and it WAS NOT bitchy in the least.
"the OM IS THE ISSUE, plain and simple. Until our spouses extracate them from their lives, it will remain the over-riding issue that prevents us from moving forward. " GH, I couldn't agree with you more. My H says he does not want to work on our relationship because he doesn't think his feelings will change. I don't buy that. The OW is clouding his judgement. He is also the type of person that does not communicate well and would probably not come out and tell me that he is working on us. I have to go by his actions and not have ANY expectations, just go with the flow. I too do things for him because I love him unconditionally. Basically I will continue to be the person that I have always been, because I am not someone terrible. I will "act as if" everything is good between us and make him feel appreciated (he stated that was missing in our marriage).
Quote: "Are you expecting whatever you're going to do to be the 'one big thing' to help turn their head around, and profess their undying love to you? If so, how are you going to handle the disappointment of your unfulfilled expectations if they don't? Will you be willing to keep up with your efforts, and maybe just change a few things, or will it make you give up? That is exactly what I have done up until now. In my sitch a big part of the S and hurt feelings was because I was withdrawn and distant with my W. At first I persued hard, and it immiediately pushed her away. Luckily I found Michelles books and stopped. I backed off and started showing her I cared through my actions. But I expected each thing I did to be the big "miricale" that brought her back. ...And when it didn't happen I would get hurt and mad and say thigns out of anger I didn't mean. Then I would back off for awhile and then do it all again. The really bad thing here is that when I was showing her I care and being there for her, that was WORKING. I just didn't se it and didn't give it enough time. Then I would screw it up and go back to the way I was in the M ---which is just what she expected. It really hurt and confused my wife. And now it may be to late. But I am not giving up. In my sitch my W needs consistant, honest, unconditional, caring, with nothing expected in return, in order to break down her wall.---At least I think----Thats what I am going to do."
OMG, NM this is me to a tee. I know you didn't write it, but by virtue of you bringing it forward has really forced me to think about some things. Sorry for the hijack GH, but this is so completely relevant to my sitch. I keep looking for that one big "thing" that's going to bring her around and when it doesn't I get impatient as he!!.
Thank you NM! I will be looking to post more this afternoon GH, so i'll get a chance to read through some of your stuff too.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
W can't operate in an R in the way you describe unless you facilitate it. I again urge you to take some ownership here and set some boundaries as to what is acceptable behavior from anyone in any kind of R with you.
W may in fact not know her own feelings or desires and may thus be unable to communicate them. My sense is that she loses her identity easily in her efforts to be what people want and to make them happy.
She may thus have initially found a kind of faux freedom and acceptance in a new R, because she didn't yet know who she had to be to make him happy. As she sacrifices more of herself (becomes more enmeshed with him), those attractive features of that R will diminish. But, as long as she remains enmeshed with you, she won't find that missing thing -- *herself* -- in an R with you. All you can do here is set boundaries and quit managing her feelings, quit being reactive to her. That is, all you can do is extract yourself from the enmeshment, it takes two to play. But, you keep playing.
Example: this obsessing over how to micromanage her feelings because you have contracted for employment for a date in the future on which it might turn out she wants your company. If she is unwilling to work on a solution to this, it is her problem. Tell her so.
Back to the ring... If you put on a tie one day because it reminded you of a great day with your W and then she criticized the tie and gave you angry looks for wearing the tie, just how able do you think you would be right now to tenderly share with her that it was really a loving thing on your part?
She doesn't trust you or her feelings for you. If I am correct that the ring was a positive sign from her, then she took an emotional risk and made herself a bit vulnerable to you. If so, it did NOT pay off for her and she certainly would not be up for taking even greater risks by telling you directly the meaning of the ring to her. I mean, she already pretty much did when she told you it was because of the other ring that YOU GOT HER.
OM is NOT the problem. The problem is your Ws unwillingness to committ to an exclusive M with you and to work on it. She is unwilling to do so for her own reasons. Those reasons are still there or OM wouldn't still be there. Your W will have a very hard time cutting ties with OM because of what it will mean to her about herself when she does so. Stringing him along as a friend or BF will allow her to avoid her guilt and pain about him and make her feel less stupid, cheap, and shallow. As long as you tolerate this, stringing him along is the path of least psychic resistance.
But, I agree with you that there does come a time when YOU need to change what you are doing, which may include no longer tolerating OM. This is YOUR CHOICE. If you make the choice not to tolerate OM when it is less painful for her to go with him, she will go. That is a risk you either choose to take or not to take. If you tolerate OM beyond a certain point, it will destroy your R. That is a risk you either choose to take or not to take.
There is nothing attractive about a P who doesn't require decency and respect in an R.
Mama, you know I NEVER mind a good hijack! I do it all the time lol.
As for what you said, I think you are on the right track. Stay true to who you ARE. In my case, I am just trying to find that out so staying true to something unknown is hard, but not impossible. As you learn more about yourself, you simply take stock and see if your current actions or "way" is in keeping with what you now know. I think we both are getting to a point where we are really ready to accept ourselves as "ok" and if our WAS see that then great, if not, then it will suck for sure, but life WILL go on for us. The absolute most powerful thing we all say around here is that we are in charge of our own happiness. That is such a simple thing to say and such a terribly difficult thing to practice. Most of us got into relationships not to find a worthy compainion who complements our strenghts and weaknesses, pushes us and helps us grow, but rather because we wanted someone to make us happy long before we made ourselves happy. If we only knew!
Quote: In his sitch, his W says she WANT'S to make things better and is commited to makeing their M work so in his case, I don't think it's too bad for him to examine the communication issues.
Okay, here is something I am learning as this goes along. The OM is not completely out of the picture....they still work together, so until that dynamic changes, she will always have that dynamic. Now, that being said, she has given up spending time outside of work with him and has committed to working on the M. And yes, I have seen positives, and yes, I do have very little patience. Okay, back to the point, the point being, even though she has committed to working on the M, doesn't mean she still doesn't have feelings for the OM and this is really the stumbling block. Just because she has decidied to work on the M doesn't mean her feelings for him disappeared overnight. So IMO right now ISN'T a good time to work on communications issues because she's just dipping her toes back into the M. Trying to change anything at this point will upset the balance. The feelings she has for him must end of their own accord before she can be expected to put her full energy into the M. This is where piecing comes into play and maybe i need to start perusing that thread.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Trying to change anything at this point will upset the balance.
Going with the status quo will just build your old nasty problems into the foundation of your new R. Going with the status quo will leave your W in the comfort zone of being who she was, which is not someone she was happy being. Going with the status quo will build resentment in you.
Ok, it's time for the daily OT moment...lol.
As usual, response in kind is due.
Quote: W can't operate in an R in the way you describe unless you facilitate it. I again urge you to take some ownership here and set some boundaries as to what is acceptable behavior from anyone in an R with you
I have to clarify something and maybe get come clarification from you.
As I have said a hundred times here, I am gone from the house lot but there is a difference between what I used to do and now. When I would go out before, I would say things like "If you don't want me to go, I will try to get out of it" or "If you don't ever want me to go, I will just quit" and things like that. Even when I did go, I would make sure to act like I didn't want to and when I came home I would never say I had fun in order not to haver her be jealous. I made her totally responsible for my happiness and even tried to make sure she was responsible for her own unhappiness by basically setting it up for her to have "given me permission" so she was somehow not supposed to be unhappy if I was gone. How pathetic was that? No wonder...
So now, when I have something to do, or want to do something, I just tell her I am going to do it. Also, I don't downplay it. If she asks, or I happen to mention what I am doing, I am always positive if I can be. I love what I do and now I let it show. I was REALLY stupid of me to try to as you say "micro-manage" my W's emotions like that. I really try not to anymore, but as you point out, I still do.
NOW, after all that, do you get the sense that I really am playing along (and I know it's just one example but it is indicative of the kinds of things I am doing different), or is it more that I am living in a house with someone, sharing the duties of the household and taking care of two kids together. There is just an unavoidable amount of enmeshment that will happen in that case.
Quote: Back to the ring... If you put on a tie one day because it reminded you of a great day with your W and then she criticized the tie and gave you angry looks for wearing the tie, just how able do you think you would be right now to tenderly share with her that it was really a loving thing on your part?
Ok. Point taken, but again, the ring has only been spoken of in positive terms directly. She asked me if I liked it once we got home. Even last night she said how she wishes she would have gotten a different one. She seems oblivious as to how I may perceive it. That's why I am half convinced it's not about him, and now 100% convinced I should not say I feel otherwise.
Quote: She doesn't trust you or her feelings for you. If I am correct that the ring was a positive sign from her, then she took an emotional risk and made herself a bit vulnerable to you. If so, it did NOT pay off for her and she certainly would not be up for taking even greater risks by telling you directly the meaning of the ring to her. I mean, she already pretty much did when she told you it was because of the other ring that YOU GOT HER.
The fact that she mentioned the other ring needs to be put in context. She mentioned that ring and said she ALWAYS wanted a white gold or silver version. She did not necessarily say it had anything to do with me buying it for her, etc. Anyway, who really cares, it's all speculation and I am trying to be done with analyzing this. It is what it is and I will not waste any more time on it. It's for my own good.
Quote: OM is NOT the problem. The problem is your Ws unwillingness to committ to an exclusive M with you and to work on it. She is unwilling to do so for her own reasons. Those reasons are still there or OM wouldn't still be there. Your W will have a very hard time cutting ties with OM because of what it will mean to her about herself when she does so. Stringing him along as a friend or BF will allow her to avoid her guilt and pain about him and make her feel less stupid, cheap, and shallow. As long as you tolerate this, stringing him along is the path of least psychic resistance.
Yep. I know this as truth. Of course this is the easiest thing for her to do, which brings up issues of enabling and such with me. True as well is the fact that to "tolerate" this while working on myself is the DB way and the way I have chosen. I may choose another way sooner or later. We'll see.
Quote: But, I agree with you that there does come a time when YOU need to change what you are doing, which may include no longer tolerating OM. This is YOUR CHOICE. If you make the choice not to tolerate OM when it is less painful for her to go with him, she will go. That is a risk you either choose to take or not to take. If you tolerate OM beyond a certain point, it will destroy your R. That is a risk you either choose to take or not to take.
Ah, and it's realizing where that point beyond which irreparable damage is done is the key, is it not? That said, I have seen some people, men and women alike, tolerate MUCH more than I think I could ever tolerate from their WAS and still have things get better, if not reconcile completely.
Fact is that I know the time will come when the only change I feel left open to me to make IS not tolerating the OM. At some point, like I said earlier, I will feel that I can no longer grow and be happy in my R with my W because of the OM. When that day comes, I am sure I will do what I need to do. I do not see that day on the horizon yet.
Quote:
There is nothing attractive about a P who doesn't require decency and respect in an R.
Well, in some ways, going back to my first point, tolerating an affair continuing is then VERY unattrative, now isn't it? Now, if that's all she sees in me, or I define myself by that single decision, then I would agree, but I do not, and I hope she does not either. I am not my decisions, I am me, and there is a WHOLE lot more to me that is attractive.
I expect and demand respect in just about every other aspect of our relationship. I won't lie. Obviously this decision to tolerate this A weighs on me, but I do not think it defines me.
Thnak you as always for your ideas. They always make me thing, whether I like it or not!
Quote: Trying to change anything at this point will upset the balance.
Going with the status quo will just build your old nasty problems into the foundation of your new R. Going with the status quo will leave your W in the comfort zone of being who she was, which is not someone she was happy being. Going with the status quo will build resentment in you.
Why not aim higher?
Okay, I get your point and it is well taken. Now how do you take someone who has always had communication issues and convince them that communication is the key in building a healthy relationship?
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
