RE MoJo How do you sell somebody something if they feel like they don't have the money to afford it? JJ, I think people also need to see some people don't what we are offering them because they have no interest in it untill they start thinking about the alternatives.
Sometimes the alternatives are worse than what we are offering so they buy just enough for us to still come around.
Quote: Sometimes the alternatives are worse than what we are offering so they buy just enough for us to still come around
Okay, so if your wife is buying marital fire insurance by having sex with you, whose fault is it if the premium is set too low to make a profit in the long run? Either someone has their rose-colored glasses on while looking at the actuarial tables or the insurance company is blaming its customers for its own poor planning which included taking a long term loss in order to get short term profits.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Jenny, I think you are sublimating your sexual urges into unclear metaphors. Back when you were the General I always understood your analogies... now for some reason, I don't. Maybe it's me...
RE Jenny Either someone has their rose-colored glasses on while looking at the actuarial tables or the insurance company is blaming its customers for its own poor planning which included taking a long term loss in order to get short term profits.
1. rose-colored glasses. A. Yes BB has those. 2. actuarial tables. A. I am reading and taking about them. Newer thought I would. 3. insurance company is blaming its customers for its own poor planning. A. more like has not gotten tough enough on the issues. Does the customer/BB have enough to pay more? 4. long term loss in order to get short term profits. A. BB not willing to give up sleep for the sake of a better R or me, Me willing to settle for a little rather than take more chances?
if your wife is buying marital fire insurance by having sex with you Maybe I know she does not have much $$$$/emotional energy/desire to make higher payments. Maybe she is a better sales person than I give her credit for.
If BB was younger, (no hysterectomy, no breast cancer, no tamoxifen (absorbs estrogen), no IBS, not afraid of UTI's, not ?????, the policy price would go way up. I know the policy price should have been higher 20 years ago. But call me a late bloomer. BTDT many times.
The above post to choc is too simple of a model JJ. The buyer and seller IRL is not just about the sex/ML policy analogy, other policies (kids/finances/companionship/etc) are bought/sold all day long. I only made the point simple so the idea got through.
To let you know your point is valid, I did move my palm rapidly towards my forehead and said "DUH" JJ is right to myself when I read your post. You got me.
Sometimes I feel like the grocer in a small town where most everyone has moved out. I have just enough customers to keep the doors open if I play almost everything down to the penny.
You indicated that you informed your H you planned to look for a new policy when the kids were out of the house, maybe I should tell BB when I get my social security check I plan on spending it somewhere warmer than MT.
Quote: P.S. Sooner, sorry for the hijack. But your sitch sounds so much like mine (wife used to be affectionate and very HD, husband is a "nice guy", wife refuses counseling, etc.) that I thought it was on-topic. -- Choc.
No problem here with the hijack Choc. (and everyone else). It's turned into an interesting discussion to say the least.
Sooner
(repeating to myself "I'm a stud. I'm a stud. I'm a stud..." )
(repeating to myself "I'm a stud. I'm a stud. I'm a stud..." )
- Chuckle. I was very tempted to edit this out because I thought it might sound...wel..."gay." (thats right, Im unabashedly un-PC VL and IRL. My gay friends are cool with this too as most have a sense of humor.)
But I left it in to prove a point. If I were to repeat the stud lines right after I discovered OM I would have rolled eyes and said WTF are you talking about, you Fing dork?" Felt goofy, not congruent, and uncomfortable.
It's a test. If you get yourself to the point of positive self-talk and confidence where repeating this in your head makes you smile with a "knowing" feeling...you've reached a crucial point. A point where you're not trying to convince yourself anymore. You just think, "damned straight. And I only need to think/say it once."
Only when you lose the self-conscious awkwardness can you truly feel you can approach your W/SO with zero fear of rejection or even a care in the world if it does happen. Why be unfazed? Because it ain't you. Sex is an normal genetic drive/desire.
And for the SO to suggest the desire abnormal or otherwise is her/his issue and runs counter to all biological drive and genetic codings.
.
As BF would say, I don't make up the rules.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Tried all that. Didn't work. Got in shape, worked out, GAL, became happier/more playful, acted "as if". Absolutely ZERO difference in her.
- But you felt better about yourself, right? And you're speaking of this GAL in the past tense. This suggests maybe you stopped this. Is that right? Why? Sounds like a good way to live to me.
I know. Sometimes GAL seems to be an small victory in the M. Sometime's OP's negativity/resistance is their issue to deal with. All I know is maintaining that kind of positivity to counter OP's negativity usually makes them want to join the good guys team eventually. And you look damned good yourself physically, mentally, and emotionally.
And if you leave, W will have to "trade down" from the "Cadillac model" to an cheap imitation made in China. That fear of losing an fit, funny, happy M like this would make any F do an 180 IMO. I believe this implicitly.
On the other hand, an negative, surly, grumpy passive M whom she can easily push around with her testing and let's her get away with murder while he scrambles around doing AOS is not going to be much of an challenge to her or keep her interest and attraction for long. I also believe this implicitly. Kinda found that out the hard way.
And if this doesn't work, then the Fs have self-esteem/worth issues she needs to deal with. Cliche, yes, but true nonetheless. "Can't love someone else till you love yourself first."
It's funny you brought up sales. It's what I've done for a living my entire life, from the time I had two of my own paper routes as a kid, egg routes, mowed lawns/shoveled snow, etc., to my full-time career the past 23 years. I'm excedingly good at it. I win all of the awards.
- Yes, my BIL is an master salesman of big big ticket items. I will always defer sales psychology to those, such as yourself, who make their livelihood from selling. I have a pretty broad sales background too from early on--and not by choice in many cases.
Made to go door to door as an child selling MLM gimmick products by parents who were always into one scam or another. Then, slick-talking teen making 250 cold calls/day for telemarketing time share outfit and at top of commissions. Ugh. Never again. Not my thing.
But your analogy breaks down.
In sales, as a sales manager I teach my sellers to not take rejection personally. The self-talk is supposed to be "They are not rejecting ME, they are only rejecting my PRODUCT/SERVICE."
-Agreed. I was concentrating more on the "attitude" and less on the "product."
Well, in my marriage, and in the bedroom, the product IS me. And the rejection is personal, it is deep, and it hurts.
- I do really feel for you, man. I can't imagine the hurt the HD Ms around here face. But you are both the product and the salesman. She bought the whole package once, twice...many times and is no longer enticed for whatever reason. Gotta figure out why. You? Maybe. Her? Maybe. As you know, best place to start is via listening to the "buyer" before suggesting the solution. And if she doesn't volunteer to talk. Make her talk.
And so what I am saying is, as much as I know that intellectually much of what you say is true, we simply cannot do it anymore. Or, at least, I don't care to.
- And this is what I was going for. Bingo. The poison that undermines all of the work going on IRL and on this MB. Attitude. Believing in yourself, your W, and your M so much that failure is never an option.
As we both know, in sales it's called "burnout." And no matter how cherry your "leads" are, the sure things, the conversion rate mirrors and stays as low as the morale.
In sales, we spend our time prospecting fertile territories. When we meet with repeated rejection after rejection after rejection, we stop mining the territory. It's fruitless.
- Yes. And my apologies to all. I did not want to get into the heavy sales side of my analogy, only the attitude. And your W isn't an territory but an current and once very satisfied customer. And I know from experience that's way more than half of the battle. Ahhh, to not have to cold call this one.
Goes to one of the 12 Pillars marketing guru Jay Abraham teaches, as you probably know. The best way to generate more sales is not to primarily concentrate on mining leads but to concentrate on your current customers--to get him/her to buy more often than he/she does currently.
goes back to the ability of the salesman. And, BTW, yes, I've come across OP who have rejected the perfect product sheerly on account of an weak salesman. One fairly recently. An ad buyer on an account for (big computer maker D) listened to a pitch from young sales guy who kept mistakenly referring to the buy'ers client as its chief rival, (big computer maker I). The buyer said he really wanted to buy the product but rejected it solely due to the incompetence of the salesman.
Mojo is keyed in to what I was trying to convey, from her post. The HD Ms here are allowing the LD Fs to run up the account tab without consequence. Sooner or later they will have to pay the piper. Even if that means digging into cushions.
Or finding themselves in the hands of two large men holding them upside down shaking the change from their pockets. In NYC these kind of guys usually say they work in "collection."
A-bombs, 2x4s to the head, cage-rattling; as, again, addressed in Corri's "Stupid Question thread.
But that's the last resort and I was trying to show the escape path that may avoid this final option. The path of unshakeable self-esteem and unbending boundaries. All carried out with an air of happiness, fun, and humor if possible. And while being quite firm.
Let me finish this long post with an example of someone Ms should strive to model.
Sean Connery.
Do you think he would ever put up with an SSM for long? I doubt it. I'm guessing he has pretty hard boundaries as to what he will accept from his SO. This guy has been chased by Fs since he was 16. Heard an interview with him long time ago and he said while the Ms were at war he was delivering milk and seduced by many many lonely Fs.
In an much later interview he was asked. "Mr. Connery, why have you been so successful throughout your life with the ladies?"
His one-word answer?
"Confidence." And he repeated this one word three straight times.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
we simply cannot do it anymore. Or, at least, I don't care to.
Ok. This is understandable. You no longer want to do what you know works. I saw you say this previously.
You have so much resentment, anger, whatever, that your W doesnt accept you for you, that your not going to do what works anymore.
Nod. big affirmative. understood.
but understand that you are not accepting her, the woman, your W, for being who she is. And needing what she needs. Certain attributes, certain manifestations by you, that cause her desire, respect, sex drive to kick in.
You dont want to have to do it. Well guess what, she isnt going to 'want to do it either'.
Choco you are in sales. Do you say, 'I dont want to do what it takes to work'? or do you do what works. I too am exceedingly familiar with sales. last summer during my second seperation pre D I went to a repeat seminar, and started listening to my cd's again. many of my internal awarnesses originally came from extrapolating from my sales training back in my early 20's. (situations coverging that made me go AHHH!)
even now in my current work situations (which technically has nothing to do with sales) I use many of them to sell the product that earns the money. Me. The results have been remarkable. I dont know why I never did it before. never really cared about money. Now I guess I do it, because it keeps me interested and mentally occupied, which the actual work doesnt, despite the risks.
Shake yourself out of your rut. try some different things for you. Just to bring some zest to your life and interest in the interactions.
When we meet with repeated rejection after rejection after rejection, we stop mining the territory.
If you think its fruitless, why havent you moved on to a different territory then? because your a 'good guy'? not like that? Is that working for you? What fear of loss is causing you to stand still?
lastly... Got in shape, worked out, GAL, became happier/more playful, acted "as if
as-ifing is not the same as indifference. In sales you are still directing the dynamic even when you are not 'pressuring'.
Did you do the above for you, or did you do it to for her? were you happier and playful, and trying to get a reaction out of her whilst she was ignoring your needs (supplicating behavior) or were/are you that way because her reactions dont affect you (lovingly detached). When she is rude, inconsiderate, disrespectful, do you IMMEDIATELY let her know that it is UNacceptable to treat you that way? or do you just hope and WISH that she will be 'nice' to you in return, like you are to her?
I do understand your emotions on the matter. I too stopped doing what I know, temporarily. My W jetted at the first sign of weakness and insecurity.(ok I completely cut her off of EC too... anyways) Your W's are still there which I think says alot about them, regardless of their sex drives. (assuming there is no uncovered affairs going on)
to sum up, if you arent willing to do what it takes, neither will she.
I really wish success for you. It is in your control.
Maybe it's me... 
