Quote: You definitely make a compelling point and I think that you're probably right on the money with respect to the assertive, confident, playful attitude being a lot more appealing than the "wimpy" (for lack of a better word) alternative. The sad part is that, even as I write this, I could easily display the very attitude that you've described with another woman (hypothetically speaking of course), but after years of rejection and a general lack of interest from my own wife, I no longer think of her as sexy and playful. I know - that could very well be as much my fault as hers, but it's still sad nonetheless.
Sooner, you make a great point. A lot of us read posts like Stig's, and Blackfoot's, and others, and we not only KNOW that stuff is true, we not only KNOW it works, but WE'VE EVEN DONE IT BEFORE -- often even with this same LD/ND woman lying next to us!
But we are just too damned tired and rejected to keep up that fight.
Would it work? Maybe. But I just don't care to try it anymore, at least not with her.
Sooner, you make a great point. A lot of us read posts like Stig's, and Blackfoot's, and others, and we not only KNOW that stuff is true, we not only KNOW it works, but WE'VE EVEN DONE IT BEFORE -- often even with this same LD/ND woman lying next to us!
But we are just too damned tired and rejected to keep up that fight.
Would it work? Maybe. But I just don't care to try it anymore, at least not with her.
Ah. It's becoming very clear to me now why the the Ms here are not succeeding in their attempts. A common theme.
These approaches Ms like BF and myself espouse require a very crucial mindframe--otherwise the Fs you are trying to "sell" will not believe it one iota.
You are breaking the cardinal rule of sales. You do not believe in your product. A commission killer. I've seen it. When you go into a pitch and you are not totally confident and positive about the product the prospects can smell it a mile away. They will not buy. Why? Because they do not trust you since you do not trust yourself and the product. Their radar picks up that you might be pitching some kind of snake oil and are just trying to make a buck off of them.
And your resentment is doing you Ms in as well. The poorest salesman is the salesman who focuses on all of his past failed sales pitches over the years. And as he walks into his next meeting, in his head his defenses and cynicism project "oh, great, I have a feeling they're not gonna like my pitch. I can already tell they look like they're in that "not buying it" mood today."
And OP can smell this like fear. It's biological and genetic. Subconscious readings of body language and nonverbals...spurring on the "gut feeling." The primal fight or flight based gut feeling that says you are not to be trusted since you are fearful and do not believe in your product and self.
I get it, guys. I really do. But your sabotaging your Rs from square one with the EC/ML attempts. We can only hold one thought in our conscious minds at a time. If that thought is negative, then your Fs will immediately pick up on it.
They will not trust you. You don't believe in the R or them. And Fs can smell BS and incongruency a mile away.
What's the solution? You need to start with yourselves. "As ifs." If you want to make your Rs work? Then you have to force yourself to be positive and confident even if you're fighting back the "she's just gonna push me away" thoughts. Have you tried forcing a smile? Smiling at her before you make your approach?
Along with thoughts and dialogue like: "i'm a stud. I'm a stud. I'm a stud. No F can resist me. No F can resist me. No F can resist me...because I'm confident, happy, and hcarismatic. And if she does? Her loss. Not gonna let her negativity drag my mood down. Any F would find me to be an attractive catch, frankly. I know eventually if I maintain this level of constant positivity and being upbeat, she has no choice but to also start feeling positive vibes within herself."
Ye Reap What Ye Sow. It's Scripture for a reason. It works for everything, including inner dialogue.
The Principle of Sympathetic Tonal Resonance. If you strike an B or C note on a piano in a large empty room with one other piano way across this room, the B or C string on that "passive" piano will vibrate every single time...essentially feeding off the vibration "vibe" of the projecting piano.
Fake it until you make it, guys, if you want to stay in your Rs. Stop dwelling. Stop focusing on negatives. Find the things about your Fs that really turn you on or make you feel connected with her and fixate on these things that drew your attraction to her in the first place.. Believe me, if your brain is telling you that you could act assertive and positive with another F but not with your SO...because you don't view them as sexy or playful anymore, your SOs can psychically smell that negative bad smell.
And I don't fault them for shutting you down. They can't help it. It's biology. Sex is a huge vulnerability and trust act. Like the prospect, if they can't put all of their trust in you to approach them with 100 percent confidence and positivity about your "product" they are not going to buy...ever. And this goes double or triple if you do not view them as an sexy vibrant beautiful woman you deeply love. Any lesser thoughts about them makes them feel cheapened in their own eyes. And no one wants to feel bad about self worth. "Pull the plug on him" her thoughts scream. "Shut him down. Protect self."
Change your inner dialogue from fear, resentment over past rejections, and overfocusing on "she's probably just gonna push me away" to positive failure is not an option because I'm going to make her laugh and not let rejection faze me even if she does reject me kinda guy. So don't try and make these kinds of suggested approaches with your Fs until you really really believe in yourself through positive self-talk. It will never work otherwise and once she sees you "faking it" and freezes you out, the next time you try the assertive/playful approach she will recognize it as the same ploy. And once that happens the only way out is the harder road of forcing yourself to believe in yourself over a long period of time so the pattern repeats and she starts trusting you again.
It's the winner's mentality. Vince Lombardi was a real genius at this psychology...every single time. A reporter once asked him after the Packers lost a game, "So, Vince, how does it feel to lose the game?"
To which he replied, "We didn't lose. We just ran out of time."
Reporter: "So, Ms, how does it feel to be rejected by your Fs in the bedroom yet again?"
Collective M: "We didn't get rejected. We just haven't shown her behavior that draws her attraction. Once we do, I can assure you, you'll stop asking me questions like that, son."
Do you love your Fs? Do you want to be with them for the long haul? Then ya gotta make the changes first in your thinking and resolve before you try to scale her defensive walls. PMA before the assault. Low morale kills more armies faster than the strength of any physical enemy.
Think like Vince, Ms. He created a dynasty for a reason.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Baltoman, Wow! Great letter! It is spooky as I could have written that exact same letter myself. It atleast lets me know that others are experiencing the same thing, and while that depresses me for their sake, it is atleast encouraging to me to see others going though the same thing. I now just need to read that same kind of letter with a happy ending.. the one that says "but we worked through it and eventually my wife came around. And with some work and effort, she came to realize that sex can be a fun, bonding and enjoyable time for married partners." I need to see there is a happy ending to someone in my scenerio as right now the outlook is rather bleak as I read messages from people who have dealt with this for a loooooong time.
Stig, One thing I realized very early on (and didn't think much of at the time) is the fact that my wife is in no way, anywhere... ticklish. Try tickling her and she;ll get extremely angry in a quick hurry. To me now, it is just another signal that something happened at some point in her life that triggered this whole anti-touch response. She used to enjoy sex, but she has never enjoyed tickling. I know all to well not to go there. And so that doesn't help when trying to be playful and make it fun.
I havetried many things to make it fun. I personally love foreplay, that close, fun, "getting ready" with one another time is usually more fun to me than the actual sex. But my wife dispises that part. "I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable. If you need it, just verbally tell me you want it, if it is possible for me, I'll try my best to go along, but just get it over with as soon as you can. I know it is my duty as a wife to allow you to have intercourse, but just repect my dislikes for it and get it over with as quickly as you can." Then she removes just the essentially clothing and and says "ok, let's go. Stop trying to make it all extended and dramatic. Just get it done"
The whole thing just makes me go "iiiiick". This is SOOOO not what it is supposed to be.
My current problem.. Our entire relationship, I have so loved my wife.. with all of this over the last few years and no true connection, for the first time I am feeling those feelings starting to slip. And that scares me right now more than anything, and I don't know how to solve it. It's a terrible feeling.
I know... I need to stay positive, unflinching.. happy, and enjoy the world. But some days are just... hard..
HappyGiant, the more you do of the heavy lifting, the less your W has to do.
Then she removes just the essentially clothing and and says "ok, let's go. Stop trying to make it all extended and dramatic. Just get it done" This is total BS on her part! So how often do you do it with her? Like twice as much as you would normally do it or much less than you would like to do it? BTDT to a lesser extent myself.
I don't know your story very well but this would be a MC or a he!!-to-pay situation for me.
the fact that my wife is in no way, anywhere... ticklish. Respect her likes or dislikes in this area.
Sorry, but reading your posts has all kinds of warning signs that you are in for a long tough task.
I know... I need to stay positive, unflinching.. happy, and enjoy the world. True but you also need to step back and see where your W needs to do some work on her attitueds and actions reguarding your sex life.
Has she described her version and range of a SL.
Wosses and my-way-or-the-highway type guys don't make it, neither do servants make it. Your W has to do some work and invest in the R or you (me) get to the point think the R is too one-sided and you give up and start thinking out-the-door thoughts.
Yes, the playful teasing and banter is subjective. Some people just can't stand tickling. Perhaps something else, like foot rubs etc. If she doesn't like to feel pleasure from foot rubs, scalp massagess, hand massages etc. then I don't know what else to say. Blinking cursor.
But my wife dispises that part. "I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable. If you need it, just verbally tell me you want it, if it is possible for me, I'll try my best to go along, but just get it over with as soon as you can. I know it is my duty as a wife to allow you to have intercourse, but just repect my dislikes for it and get it over with as quickly as you can." Then she removes just the essentially clothing and and says "ok, let's go. Stop trying to make it all extended and dramatic. Just get it done"
<Mouth Agape>
- This is beyond not only my F experience and scope but my comprehension. Trail ends here with me. Dead end into side of mountain.
This is a partnership. Imagine starting a business with another partner. He comes in the first week of the big opening. "Look, I know you want me to come in to work every day for 8 hours or more; so I'm here. Let's just get this stuff over with. I don't enjoy what we're doing but I'll do my part since I am your partner after all."
Can you imagine?? Especially following the first day of your agreement--when you both were so excited about it? Well, it's basically the same thing. Your M is a partnership and your W is being...wel...
I think it was a Shakespeare line to an F: "Get thee to a nunnery."
"Get she to an psychiatrist or psychologist," HG.
She's projecting hostility and is disrespecting you and your R in the process. I can only imagine what tone her inner self-talk is projecting. I know you love her, HG. But she can't love you in return until she finds a way to love herself.
This is the kind of negative energy that, if she allows it to continue within her, is going to cause a lot of stress-related illnesses for her, including cancer.
The whole thing just makes me go "iiiiick". This is SOOOO not what it is supposed to be.
- Ick for sure. Understatement. No, not what an M/R is supposed to be. Antithesis behavior. Hell, this isn't even normal behavior for an reclusive shut in, let alone someone with an partner.
She needs professional help. Get what's internally eating away at her out of her by hook or crook; by counseling/therapy and medication if necessary until she can return to the F she resembled when you first asked for her hand.
Hang in there HG. It's normal to feel your feelings slip under an full-on Love Busting assault of your Love Bank account like this from her. If you didn't, I wouldn't think you were human. Your subconscious and concept of self-worth are trying to protect you this way. The slipping feeling is an protective defense mechanism preventing you from feeling like you have zero worth to OP.
It's not you. It's her. Just always keep telling yourself that, friend. Be determined to have a happy life no matter what the outcome. You aren't responsible for her negativity, only for countering it with your own positivity. Her self-talk you can't control. Yours you can.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
"Its not you.. it's me"... that is one of the most often heard phrases in my household. For years... I didn't buy it. In my mind, the reason she was so antagonistic towards intamacy was because I sucked at it. I wasn't a good lover. After all, if I was any good, how couldn't she want that?!" So I kept trying to focus on improving myself, even though I really couldn't "practice" anything..
But lately, I have come to grips with the fact that she is speaking truth. I don't understand what is going on in her, and until she comes to grips with it, things will continue on as they have been. I am working to do everything I can to understand this.. I am going to counseling, I am seeking advice from others... I am actively working on solutions. My wife refuses any kind of counseling and will not discuss her issues with anyone, family friends, no one. She is trying to internalize everything and it is slowly destroying her. So, since I am doing everything I can to solve this, and she is taking a differnt path.. the only way there will be a solution is when it is within her.
Oh and while we are quoting Shakespear.. my favorite line (and most applicable to my life) is "Hell hath no greater furry than a woman scorned"
I still think your wife is putting up defenses and excuses to hide her intimacy issues. She will not do anything to address this, not even see a counselor. I think the fact that you have endured this for so long send her the message that she can keep on getting her way for the foreseeable future, because she sees nothing in you to convince her otherwise.
I feel you are following the traditional advice of working on yourself and leaving it to your spouse to work on herself. The conventional wisdom is that you can’t force anyone to change, and to do so would be manipulation. But ho does that answer the fact that by her not addressing her issues and not changing, she is in fact manipulating you? Sure the only solution is within her, but if she does not want to open that door, what are you going to do to make do so? And why should she. The resistance she has put up over the years is so great that it tells me her issues and pain must be even greater. Only until you reverse this balance will she move forward. When are you going to rattle her cage?
What about a new quote, one which you need to ingrain into her psyche – Hell hath no furry like a man sex starved!
Tried all that. Didn't work. Got in shape, worked out, GAL, became happier/more playful, acted "as if". Absolutely ZERO difference in her.
It's funny you brought up sales. It's what I've done for a living my entire life, from the time I had two of my own paper routes as a kid, egg routes, mowed lawns/shoveled snow, etc., to my full-time career the past 23 years. I'm excedingly good at it. I win all of the awards.
But your analogy breaks down.
In sales, as a sales manager I teach my sellers to not take rejection personally. The self-talk is supposed to be "They are not rejecting ME, they are only rejecting my PRODUCT/SERVICE."
Well, in my marriage, and in the bedroom, the product IS me. And the rejection is personal, it is deep, and it hurts.
And so what I am saying is, as much as I know that intellectually much of what you say is true, we simply cannot do it anymore. Or, at least, I don't care to.
In sales, we spend our time prospecting fertile territories. When we meet with repeated rejection after rejection after rejection, we stop mining the territory. It's fruitless.
Choc.
P.S. Sooner, sorry for the hijack. But your sitch sounds so much like mine (wife used to be affectionate and very HD, husband is a "nice guy", wife refuses counseling, etc.) that I thought it was on-topic. -- Choc.
Quote: In sales, as a sales manager I teach my sellers to not take rejection personally. The self-talk is supposed to be "They are not rejecting ME, they are only rejecting my PRODUCT/SERVICE."
Well, in my marriage, and in the bedroom, the product IS me. And the rejection is personal, it is deep, and it hurts.
I think what you have to consider if both the soft sell and the hard sell don't work is that the customer might just not have any money or at least feels like she doesn't have any money. I think it is natural to take sexual rejection personally but I also think it is counter-productive. How do you sell somebody something if they feel like they don't have the money to afford it? Either you have to extend them some credit (probably not advisable except in a minor way)or convince them that they better dig in the couch cushions for pennies and take a second job because what you're selling is a serious necessity.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
RE chocolateeyes Well, in my marriage, and in the bedroom, the product IS me. And the rejection is personal, it is deep, and it hurts I get what you are saying about the 'the rejection is personal, it is deep, and it hurts' choc. In my case the product (me) is not the same as the payoff (the EC/SL/the physical relationship and related feelings).
I have a slightly different take on the "product" which is you, not how your W reacts to you. I can see where the two are tied together. I just wanted to say a perfect H (product) can still be rejected sexually
I am reading an assertiveness book and one thing I came across in the book is to realistically ask yourself is: 1. Do you see signs the other person is capable of giving you the thing you want? 2. Do they want to give it to you? 3. What is the exchange rate and conditions, are they realistic and can both people meet them? 4. What are the consequences of not making an exchange that is favorable to both parties for the long term. 5. What can you do if there in little interest in the exchange process.
I am not talking about trading AOS, gifts, etc for a SL. It's more like trading kisses for kisses, fidelity for fidelity, or even some things like going to a ball game because the OP likes to play cards.
In sales, we spend our time prospecting fertile territories. When we meet with repeated rejection after rejection after rejection, we stop mining the territory. It's fruitless. I agree.
So why do we keep trying? 1. We have a limited pool of prospects, (moral grounds of being exclusive partners) 2. We keep looking for new products to entice a spouse. 3. We know other people like what we have but haven't figured out why our spouse is so resistant to see what we see as something good. 4. We are addicted to hope? 5. We want to avoid hurting other people/kids/relatives? 6. we have some assets that we will have to give up if we make drastic changes. 7. We think we can learn to correct the imbalance or problems in the R. More but I have to quit.
chocolateeyes, I see value to your position and understand its merits. There are different degrees of trying and different degrees of what I call coasting, or accepting what is for the moment.
Alpha male attitude and behaviors work, have benefits and payoffs, but cost something too. The other mode, beta model, also has costs and payoffs.
So how often do you do it with her? Like twice as much as you would normally do it or much less than you would like to do it? BTDT to a lesser extent myself. 
