Faking Os and roadblocks to intimacy

[oldtimer]

My XH probably could have written this:

My W does not like a lot of manual or oral stimulation. She said to me that it feels great, but it gets her only so far and then plateaus (there are exceptions to this rule, however)...she needs to feel me inside her to reach her "O".

The truth was that I felt that there was no chance of getting to O, so at some point I preferred simply to get the foreplay over with, along with the IC and fake an O.

I was content not to O because I had no expectation of ever being able to reliably O with a P. That expectation changed when I came clean with new H, was more authentic and vulnerable in SL and didn't have a big secret and became more honest about my needs. I then began to O reliably and I became far less content with the sex-for-closeness-not-O thing, and probably experienced real frustration at not Oing during sex for the first time because I wanted to and understood it to be possible.

Best,
Oldtimer

[Stigmata]

Hi, Lou,

You are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks. And great self "validation" list:

If she has an "O": (not necessarily correct ways of thinking)
1. I shared some pleasurable times/events with her. (increased bonding)

- Yes. And let's strip away the O for a sec. Chemistry and physiology: Rapid heart rates. labored breathing, Perspiration. vasodilation throughout bodies and esp. in engorged Sexual regions. Flood of endorphins. Increased mucosal production and lubrication. Friction. Pheromone release picked up by the olfactory system; and ennervated sensitized nerves via skin-skin contact. I'll stop there.

So without the O this is at least 90 percent of the pleasurable and bonding experience you speak of. A good thing as we agree.

2. I am a good lover. (bonding and ego stroking)

- I agree. You can be the most confident M in the world but the feedback is very important. However, faking the O destroys any potential for growth in this learning curve of being a "good lover" for the F. All forward learning about F's physiology halts and M kicks into status quo modus potentially.

3.. I took the time or action she needed. (I am considerate)

- Definitely. Yet again, being considerate and taking the time to give her what she needs is thrown off course when she leads you down the wrong path via faking. So essentially it's not you giving her what "she needed." It's, by her own volition, giving you "what she thinks you needed."

If I am taking the time and action to please an F I very much appreciate and respect openness and shortcuts that may help me find the best way to where she will get what she needs. Otherwise I am deluding myself and only one of us knows I am doing it.

4. .She accepted my gift of love and sexuality (what I have is valuable and the FM wants the same thing)

- Right again. Increase perceived M performance/self "value" with O. However, faking the O does the inverse unfortunately. De-valuing your gift through a falsehood, whether it be white or gray in color. Again, the M feels he's giving great value via fake O; the F knows it is not how the M perceives and, again, only she knows of his delusion. Not helpful.

5. She will have sex with me more often. (increasing the supply)

- Yes. And possibly a flawed perception. Achieving an O may not increase an F's desire for frequency. She may be satisfied with the quality which may keep her satisfied for a while. I would have to defer to the Fs for this, but I am sure it runs on a case by case basis with the Fs, a la Chrome's W and the "HD" Fs here.

6. The sex will be better and maybe more frequent. (increasing the quality / value of sex)

- See above. A purely M viewpoint and possibly flawed.

7. The more value the sex is to the FM, with me, the less she will be looking elsewhere. (decreasing the potential competition's value)

- Very very tricky. And I believe also skewed towards the purely M view. From what I understand of Fs, it is not the idea of a great O with the hot office coworker but rather the EC primarily. A "magical" virile man who gives an O to an F within a few seconds or minutes every single time and is the best lover in the world will not amount to much in her eyes if he does not provide for the more important ancillary needs, such as emotional connection, intimacy, openness, trust, and respect for her. If he is an one-dimensional sex king I will assert she will soon get bored with him and become rapidly disinterested in his "prowess."

8. When we both have an "O", my "O"'s are more intense. (increasing the pleasure) I hope it works that way for her too.

- Yes, simultaneous climax is an amazing bonding experience for both. No, doesn't happen all the time.

But when an F "mimics" the M's O (O-syncing? lol) then that pure connected shared experience is fraudulent and only one person knows of this. It's dificult to know the full impact but it may very well go that if the M is constantly having great Os while the F must pretend then the ground is soon fertile for the seeds of resentment deep within the F mind. A feeling of being shortchanged can result followed by frustration, disenchantment, and lack of fulfillment within the R.

I don't need to say this growing resentment seed is a very dangerous choking weed. That's why I stress the importance of the F being open, honest, and figuring out what will make her O if this will be a dealbreaker for her.

9. She got about an equal (or some similar word) amount of pleasure from the sexual encounter as I did. I don't want the only person to be having a great deal of excitement/pleasure/fun. Sort of like only having one Oreo cookie. If we split it, it seems fair. If I eat the only cookie ( only one having an "O", I feel like I was selfish. (avoiding guilt) Not too different than wanting the OP to have as good a time as we had.

- Righto. Not getting her to O is a disappointment. But I assert which is worse? Not bringing her to O or discovering all of those great Os for which you take the credit were fraudulent? I prefer the first.

And the main point for ME,
10. Biology, "O"'s feel so good, in a rewarding, committed relationships, and the process getting there is wonderful.

- All I will say is you know what makes a very rewarding committed R for me? Honesty and Trust. I prefer this biology/psychology over the stimulus-response biology any day. Achieving mutual Os in a rewarding committed R is pure. Only one P achieving such in an rewarding committed R while the OP deceives/pretends is not pure; it taints the whole purpose of this type of idealistic R in the first place.

Back to Stig
Get over it. It's not our responsibility......Until then, try not to be selfish during LM and just pay attention.

The only thing I will ad/ask is what to do about a wife/SO that won't/suppresses/doesn't give clues?

I get the point, I can't make her have "o"'s if she does not want them. I don't have the right to ask for her to have an "O". I don't have the power to make her "O". Lots of things in this area are out of my control.

I also get the point that sex with out "O"'s for the woman can still be pleasurable for her. And I should stay out of her head/sh!t/stuff. Sometimes it is lonely staying out of the loop.

- And hence the crux of the whole dilemma. It boils down to open and honest communication. And I will pull another poster or 2 into this. Lil and Mr. MD to illustrate a point.

Let's take an hypothetical M (forgive the encroachment Mr. MD and Lil's BF). This M is with Lil. He has IC with her and is about to climax in her. Lil brings on the falsified O in order maybe to make the M feel validated. She has just stated she usually only Os with oral and/or hand stimulation while the M's penis is withdrawn.

He doesn't know this so she feels unsatisfied to an extent. Finally, she takes the chance and tells him what she requires. He is hurt but gets over it.

Now, let's say Lil dumps the M for whatever reason (yeah, had to give you the control here Lil ). The M finds Mr. MD's W (again, MD, excuse this hypothetical M). Mr. MD's W only achieves the O, unlike Lil, via IC. So the M at the point where he feels she is near, withdraws and uses oral/manual stimulation to get her to climax, which isn't a hot button for her. She fades internally yett fake Os to validate him.

Again, he is led down the wrong primrose path and unawares. If she continues the deceit he will never know he has it totally backwards; he is only going off the truthful information relayed by Lil in his previous R.

Goes to my point all Fs are diferent, diferently wired, and is their responsibility to help the M understand the wiring diagram, as only they have the insider knowledge of such.

Lou, as to your W or Fs in general,who suppress or don't give clues. I would have to say to try and go back into your archives. What the R was like during it's most intense sexual period. Did she ever O or appear to O? If so (and she was honest about it) then you have to try to recreate that place.

If you are unsure of whether she did or not and she is repressing then, again, I feel one has to work on the brain first to tear down this wall of reppression. Said before. Part of it is not embracing her sexuality. Why? Poor body image possibility. Depression. Physical pain or discomfort. Low self-esteem. Some type of inner hangup which causes her to deny self of feeling...embracing...letting go with pleasure. Not resolving her own reasons for repression will roadblock any type of effort to reach mutual O. Won't happen and will only foster frustration in the M if he feels responsible...which he is not.

This is all her responsibility. There is no external solution from the M side to "fix" it. All one can do is be understanding, validating, leading, confident, instill trust in her, coax her to let go of her insecurities and COMMUNICATE, and, most importantly, observe observe observe the reactions elicited from physical stimulation/touch in all areas of her physiology.

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

...Stigmata also seemed perplexed as to why women would fake and OG-Lou's summary says it all. Women realize the man puts A LOT of weight on the woman's O whether he means to or not.

- Not perplexed by the whys of faking, LFL. Totally get it. Sensitivity to the M ego. I was just expressing personal unhappiness over not being told the truth so I can work on better methods to satisfy her in ways she truly enjoys. And I hate OP taking my power. If I lose my power I decide when and how.

The F takes that power upon herself selfishly, denying the M of any say in the matter, andd dictates who shall be aware of what. Unfair. And willingly keeping the SO in the dark about such an important seminal event is damaging IMO.

Now, I suppose I could bring up "do I look fat in these jeans?" Land mine. Blunt honesty from M without humor is equally damaging perhaps. But this is not comparable IMO. The F can ask other Fs the same and they will tell or (or not). The O is way too personal/intimate to be messing around with dishonesty. No one else can be involved, such as other Fs, either. And the jeans example is not a mutually intense event, as is ML.

Some guys have said they wouldn't care/mind if their S o'd or not during the act as long as she was being honest. I call BS on that. If a man had the option of being with a woman who did not enjoy sex but was honest about it and being with a woman who seemed to love sex, O all the time, etc, and had no real way of telling if she was "faking", I think most guys would choose the woman who at least put on the show. Not all but most.

- Hm, then I may be full of BS. I have to make an important distinction here. First. The F "who didn't enjoy sex" but was honest about it.

I would try and understand why she didn't enjoy sex and I would greatly greatly appreciate her honesty. I would be mortified to discover she felt terrible or traumatized by my encounters with her--as she faked pleasure each time. "Why didn't you tell me that's how you felt??" would be my exclamation.

And the second woman who seemed to really enjoy sex but may or may not have faked but always O'd. If I were in the early stages of dating and just wanted to get my rocks off? Sure, that would be nice. And if I found out she was faking the whole time? Hmmmm, kinda takes the enjoyment out of all of her "eagerness" IMO. If there was no deeper EC I would probably hit the road.

And your example is only one-dimension. I cannot choose between these two Fs, based on sexual gratification alone. For casual no strings encounters? Perhaps. But for an open and honest long term R? No. I prefer the first F time and time again.

Her honesty tells me she respects me and I can trust her to tell me anything. She went way out on a limb to tell me this, knowing I might kick her to the curb (which I wouldn't), and that's pretty damned brave and admirable. And I will do everything in my power to help myself and her to understand why she feels this way.

So it's not as easy as choosing between sex with an honest repressed/uncomfortable F and an sexpot who Os (real or not real) with the best of them.

At least for me sex is an secondary issue in my R.

I need to feel as one with this person in all of the nonphysical ways first. For me, honesty and vulnerability in this regard makes major cash infusions into my love bank. Keeping me in the dark and faking pleasure, if discovered, makes withdrawals. And if undiscovered? A la "ignorance is bliss"? Still makes withdrawals from the "joint account" of the R...and, I would claim, perhaps from the F's own love bank account for reasons I have stated in my post to Lou:

If allowed to continue over a period of years the self-awareness within the F that she is not feeling satisfied via mutual climax will start to grow the seeds of resentment.

And that's the biggest potential LB withdrawal of them all in terms of both the M and F accounts, as far as I'm concerned.

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

(Stig, as for the meal analogy, what if your W worked very hard on your favorite meal and it just didn't come together right? Is it possible that you might express gratitude and enjoyment even though it wasn't quite working for you? What if the meal was perfect, but you'd just brushed your teeth and eaten grapefruit so it wasn't tasting right?)

- Thanks for the post, OT. And I will not discuss pornography at this point. I would rather tackle one issue at a time. But I do have my thoughts on that as well.

As to your points. If she worked very hard on the "meal" and it didn't turn out very well I would, yes, express my gratitude. If we both are aware it did not turn out quite right and she asked what could be improved....I would respond with a suggestion of spices and/or seasonings or cooking methods. I would give her guidance. Tell her what makes my taste-buds go overboard.

Your second example. The meal is perfect but I have brushed my teeth etc. Ahhh, now, see? This is beyond her control.

This is my issue and mine alone. If we're talking sex I would compare this to me having ED or premature ejaculation. I was the one who brushed my teeth. I was the one who ate the grapefruit. I am the one with the problem.

So, just as it is up to the F who doesn't "feel" the O to look to herself for the answer, despite an otherwise "perfect" sexual encounter, it also is up to me to work out for myself why I am not enjoying the "meal."

...ie, "lay off the teeth brushing and grapefruit next time, Stigmata." KWIM?

-Stigmata-

PS. And one more thing. Yes, I would be honest about it. "Your otherwise perfect meal doesn't taste very good to me because I just brushed my teeth and ate grapefruit, sweetheart." (for some odd reason BTW )

[Lillieperl]

well, I gotta say I didn't have one freakin' clue that my O-- whether I had one, HOW I had one, WHO precisely tickled the bits to MAKE me have one, whether we were IC at the time or manual/oral-- could possibly make this much difference to any one man, ral or hypothetical! It certainly never occurred to me that issues of honesty on MY part or competence on HIS part were involved in my reaching down to tickle myself if I felt so inclined due to necessity or just for the heck of it because it felt good. I haven't hidden that I do it-- anyone can plainly see me doing it.

I guess my approach (through luck, not design) and that of my partners has been pretty much "if it feels good, do it" "and "if that doesn't work, try something else."

I do have to credit one particular very relaxed, confident, playful lover with giving both of us permission to assist, fondle, take matters into our own hands, etc. and do whatever we felt like. Like jazz improv. The last time we were together before his death, even though we had been lovers off and on for 22 years, we still discovered some new stuff we hadn't tried yet!

And then there was the one guy who was 28 years older than me. Warning TMI follows: He used to kneel between my legs and stimulate himself (while I did the same to myself, not to be idle) until just before climax which was the only time he was hard enough to put it in. I feel I can say with some assurance that it never occurred to either of us that this was settling for less... it's just the way we did it. He was a retired colonel, ex WWII fighter pilot and a hell of a guy. Maybe he was wishing for something different, but he always seemed to like what we did. (And he was VERY horny most of the time well into his 60's.) Also now deceased.

I guess I've dealt with more than my share of <ahem> non-traditional physical circumstances. Watch out you 30- and 40-somethings-- they're in YOUR future. Be adaptable!

I believe these are the RULES that I've quoted passages about a couple of times. There are no RULES except to be open and do what feels good. If the only way you can climax is on your back in the bathtub while your partner plays the violin-- so be it. No one should take offense or feel inadequate. If you don't play the violin, buy a nice CD of Joshua Bell or Itzhak Perlman. Just be glad you discovered this little quirk and enjoy!

[LustForLife]

Hi Stigmata

Not perplexed by the whys of faking, LFL. Totally get it. Sensitivity to the M ego. I was just expressing personal unhappiness over not being told the truth so I can work on better methods to satisfy her in ways she truly enjoys. And I hate OP taking my power. If I lose my power I decide when and how.

The F takes that power upon herself selfishly, denying the M of any say in the matter, andd dictates who shall be aware of what. Unfair. And willingly keeping the SO in the dark about such an important seminal event is damaging IMO.

I found your points on "power" to be interesting. That is the crux of the problem. The fact that men have NO power to control the woman's O and it is maddening!
For guys who need control in the R (I'm not saying that is you), but for them, I think they would not be willing to put up with a woman who did not either a) have authentic O's during sex and/or b) faked O's during sex.

And your example is only one-dimension. I cannot choose between these two Fs, based on sexual gratification alone. For casual no strings encounters? Perhaps. But for an open and honest long term R? No. I prefer the first F time and time again.

Well, of course it is one-dimensional. We were strictly talking about sex and O's. But I still stand by my statements. Given the choice between the two (with everything else fairly equal in the R), men will choose the woman supposedly into sex. Not rocket science here.
And I also think if both women acted as such from the beginning of the R, that the "not into sex" woman would NOT be making it to stage two, long-term R material. Thus, MANY women will fake O's at the beginning of R in order to appeal to the man.
Is that sneaky, maybe. But I think sex in R at the beginning can be quite awkward for a woman, "does he think I'm fat, attractive, sexy", blah blah). It is hard to concentrate on the O sometimes. So she fakes. I've done this myself so I'm not totally pulling this out of my arse.
Anytime I have moved on to a more serious R, I have always made sure to have my sexual needs fulfilled however. Did the guy know about any of this? Heck no. It's not like I was totally changing the game plan or anything. Just getting more comfortable expressing my true feelings/needs and trusted him to respond positively. In fact, I don't think I have had any bad sexual experiences with men that I can think of. Lucky me. So it works for some women. The problem is when the woman has no sense of EVER getting her sexual needs met. Or just doesn't know how to. That is quite sad but so true for many women. And I think the man will grow to resent it as the R/M continues. Just as you stated at the end:
If allowed to continue over a period of years the self-awareness within the F that she is not feeling satisfied via mutual climax will start to grow the seeds of resentment.

So we agree in the end. And the man may be just as resentful as the woman about the lack of O's. So there is a HUGE push to continue the faking. It is often better for the woman to fake (her rationalization)than to risk having her H feel like she is not a good sexual partner. That can lead to a whole mess of problems much worse than her "lie", like affairs, divorce, etc. Women who fake aren't stupid. They're just practical. And given the number of HD women on this board who have faked at some point in their life, I think it only makes sense that the LD women of the H's on this board are almost certainly faking now and again. I would bet big money on it. But alas, one can never really know for sure. Are there any LD women on this board who want to share?

[OG_Lou]

LFL and Stigmata

Thanks for using my personal thoughts about O's in your posts. I thought I would just stick my neck out, if I made some foolish or miss statement, that's OK, and give my and maybe some other male’s POV's My ideas were all given in a from a good intentions position.

In LFL's case about a choice between two different women, one that had O's, and one that did not have O‘s or very few, maybe should have included the statement "with other things being equal or almost equal", I think LFL is right. The guy would see the relationship that included O's as more compatible. But R and people are not really that simple IRL. Honesty is very important. So much of a R is based on trust.

Stigmata's replies contained more faking elements/what if’s than I intended for my post to convey. When I post, I usually am thinking about a couple that have some problems but are basically honest and working toward a solution that is equitable for both, considering the circumstances.

My case related to faking.
Not an issue as there has been no signs of BB fakinf or O'ing since 1981. I read all I could (not much individual information about this subject until the inter-net about two years ago. This forum has been the most informative. Thanks all for being so open.

I did learn to be OK with the idea that some women like sex but don't need to have O's and transferred those thoughts to my situation. I realized it was wrong for me to want BB to have an O when she did not want one or did not want to put in the time or effort to have one.

I have kind of gotten use to the idea that having sex with a spouse when they would rather not participate, but they do it as a gift to their SO. Not what I want, but I do appreciate the effort.

More on my Transitions thread.

Lou

[Mr_MD]

LfL, thanks for the encouragement!

I continue to read through all the posts here and am really appreciating the nuggets and insights I can draw from all this.

LfL:

I think your perspective now is a good one, but as Lil said, sometimes women really do want the O too

You and Lil are absolutely right. Thanks for sharing such personal information with us. Oh, and Stigmata, no worries on using my sitch in a hypothetical, it made a lot of sense...thanks for being respectful about it!

In light of this discussion, I've approached my W about it little by little to see what she thinks about the various parts of our SL. As things are heating up (and they ARE...we are truly on the mend!! I can't tell you how excited I am about my M right now...but I won't go on an easy tangent here!), more is surfacing that previously was never discussed. Her year away changed her personality a bit as she was forced to become hyperindependent, which has led her to be more forthright about things.

I was able to openly bring up faking in a discussion, and she told me that I have never been a real 'pressure' on her to have an "O", which confirmed what I have previously stated. I believe that in the case or cases where she did fake, it was while I was visiting her in Costa Rica during her medical rotations, where she likely felt pressured to put on an act like nothing was wrong between us. The distance was growing between us for the entire year, only coming to an ugly head at the end. I think she just didn't want to have to deal with the marriage problems until she returne home and could escape from the harsh realities of a medical internship.

No harm, no foul, I say. Her "O"s, as I understand it are strongly linked to her mental state, and when things are great between us, we don't have to fake to O-sync (I love that word!! haha). I would say that before she left for the year, we would O-sync over half the time...and I agree with what has been said: It is a magically intense bonding experience.

This new-found-honesty has filled me in on the fact that physiologically, we are not a perfect match. I thought information like this would really stroke my ego, but I found it was more concerning than anything--and I apologize if it's TMI--I'm on the larger end of the scale and sex for her can be painful, particularly if lubrication is an issue. Okay okay, I know, it could be that her Vajayjay (Any Grey's Anatomy fans out there? I still laugh when I hear that word) is built a tad small too. Who knows.

I guess what I am getting at is what I sense we are all coming to agreement with: Faking violates a very intense level of trust you have when you are love-making. There is a reason why love-making is more than plumbing to couples--it's the raw openness of providing pleasure to the other person, as going solo is rarely better. Some here have to be manually stimulated to reach the goal, but is it off base to suggest that there's something to be said about the intimacy present when you have someone help you in any fashion? As a result, I can easily suggest that habitual faking can erode intimacy, even if the other partner has no idea.

To follow up with my W, I've learned that there are moments where she knows that it won't happen because she is simply 'showing up' to help meet my needs and not her own. She is never disappointed for not O'ing in this case. I asked her what she feels like if she's into it and I come sooner and she doesn't--she shrugged her shoulders and said that she feels a little disappointed but it doesn't mean she didn't have a good time. I used the words "physically cranky" and it didn't resonate, thus confirming what we all understand: women are all wired differently...

For me, I can easily state that not knowing how I please or don't please my W is a roadblock to intimacy for sure. While it was disturbing to discover she was also dealing with the (warning, TMI) effects of tearing while in the bathroom cleaning up as i never knew I was hurting her; I definitely feel empowered now as I am more motivated to mitigate that problem with my lover so she doesn't have to dread being horny twice in the same day (we are both HD), let alone two days in a row, as it becomes so painful for her. Being honest and upfront of the good stuff AND the bad stuff allows you to get closer to your partner and enjoy a more fulfilling intimacy.

Once again, thanks especially to the ladies who are sharing their perspectives here. It's been eye opening...kinda neat to be able to pick your brains in such a safe environment such as this

Hugs,
Mr. MD

[oldtimer]

I would say that before she left for the year, we would O-sync over half the time...

Generally speaking, simultaneous Os are *very* unusual. The simultaneous O is definitely one of those ideals about what a woman's O is "supposed to be like" promoted in both popular media and porn that I think very damaging. It is often portrayed as a sign of deeper intimacy or a sign of "true love" which actually puts pressure on the woman. Now not only is a woman supposed to O from IC alone, but at the same time as her P. Ack.

It is difficult if for no other reason that when a man is about to O he changes things, and changing things often causes a woman to at least temporarilly stop progressing toward O.

Best,
Oldtimer

P.S. I'd like to again suggest that a woman is about as likely to be forthright about her faking habits as a man is about his porn habits.

[Lillieperl]

I've experienced the simultaneous O about four times in my whole life. It's "O"-kay , but not the be-all and end-all. Not something I work toward or care too much about. If anything, separate O's enable you to really get into your partner's in a way that you can't if you are O-ing at the same time.

Also regarding size and tearing: Yikes! For God's sake get some astroglide and keep it by the bed (or wherever). I know, I know... some people have the "If I have to use artificial lube, it means he isn't/I'm not turning me/her on." To that I say bullcr@p. Your car needs lube, your sewing machine needs lube, and your squeezy bits need lube. Just buy the doggone stuff and use it! Cheesh! The Level/Amount of Her Lubrication is another rule-evaluation-scorecard-thing that has to go! Before someone gets hurt-- oops! too late! Well, before someone gets hurt AGAIN.