Faking Os and roadblocks to intimacy

[Stigmata]

Hi, Lou,

You are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks. And great self "validation" list:

If she has an "O": (not necessarily correct ways of thinking)
1. I shared some pleasurable times/events with her. (increased bonding)

- Yes. And let's strip away the O for a sec. Chemistry and physiology: Rapid heart rates. labored breathing, Perspiration. vasodilation throughout bodies and esp. in engorged Sexual regions. Flood of endorphins. Increased mucosal production and lubrication. Friction. Pheromone release picked up by the olfactory system; and ennervated sensitized nerves via skin-skin contact. I'll stop there.

So without the O this is at least 90 percent of the pleasurable and bonding experience you speak of. A good thing as we agree.

2. I am a good lover. (bonding and ego stroking)

- I agree. You can be the most confident M in the world but the feedback is very important. However, faking the O destroys any potential for growth in this learning curve of being a "good lover" for the F. All forward learning about F's physiology halts and M kicks into status quo modus potentially.

3.. I took the time or action she needed. (I am considerate)

- Definitely. Yet again, being considerate and taking the time to give her what she needs is thrown off course when she leads you down the wrong path via faking. So essentially it's not you giving her what "she needed." It's, by her own volition, giving you "what she thinks you needed."

If I am taking the time and action to please an F I very much appreciate and respect openness and shortcuts that may help me find the best way to where she will get what she needs. Otherwise I am deluding myself and only one of us knows I am doing it.

4. .She accepted my gift of love and sexuality (what I have is valuable and the FM wants the same thing)

- Right again. Increase perceived M performance/self "value" with O. However, faking the O does the inverse unfortunately. De-valuing your gift through a falsehood, whether it be white or gray in color. Again, the M feels he's giving great value via fake O; the F knows it is not how the M perceives and, again, only she knows of his delusion. Not helpful.

5. She will have sex with me more often. (increasing the supply)

- Yes. And possibly a flawed perception. Achieving an O may not increase an F's desire for frequency. She may be satisfied with the quality which may keep her satisfied for a while. I would have to defer to the Fs for this, but I am sure it runs on a case by case basis with the Fs, a la Chrome's W and the "HD" Fs here.

6. The sex will be better and maybe more frequent. (increasing the quality / value of sex)

- See above. A purely M viewpoint and possibly flawed.

7. The more value the sex is to the FM, with me, the less she will be looking elsewhere. (decreasing the potential competition's value)

- Very very tricky. And I believe also skewed towards the purely M view. From what I understand of Fs, it is not the idea of a great O with the hot office coworker but rather the EC primarily. A "magical" virile man who gives an O to an F within a few seconds or minutes every single time and is the best lover in the world will not amount to much in her eyes if he does not provide for the more important ancillary needs, such as emotional connection, intimacy, openness, trust, and respect for her. If he is an one-dimensional sex king I will assert she will soon get bored with him and become rapidly disinterested in his "prowess."

8. When we both have an "O", my "O"'s are more intense. (increasing the pleasure) I hope it works that way for her too.

- Yes, simultaneous climax is an amazing bonding experience for both. No, doesn't happen all the time.

But when an F "mimics" the M's O (O-syncing? lol) then that pure connected shared experience is fraudulent and only one person knows of this. It's dificult to know the full impact but it may very well go that if the M is constantly having great Os while the F must pretend then the ground is soon fertile for the seeds of resentment deep within the F mind. A feeling of being shortchanged can result followed by frustration, disenchantment, and lack of fulfillment within the R.

I don't need to say this growing resentment seed is a very dangerous choking weed. That's why I stress the importance of the F being open, honest, and figuring out what will make her O if this will be a dealbreaker for her.

9. She got about an equal (or some similar word) amount of pleasure from the sexual encounter as I did. I don't want the only person to be having a great deal of excitement/pleasure/fun. Sort of like only having one Oreo cookie. If we split it, it seems fair. If I eat the only cookie ( only one having an "O", I feel like I was selfish. (avoiding guilt) Not too different than wanting the OP to have as good a time as we had.

- Righto. Not getting her to O is a disappointment. But I assert which is worse? Not bringing her to O or discovering all of those great Os for which you take the credit were fraudulent? I prefer the first.

And the main point for ME,
10. Biology, "O"'s feel so good, in a rewarding, committed relationships, and the process getting there is wonderful.

- All I will say is you know what makes a very rewarding committed R for me? Honesty and Trust. I prefer this biology/psychology over the stimulus-response biology any day. Achieving mutual Os in a rewarding committed R is pure. Only one P achieving such in an rewarding committed R while the OP deceives/pretends is not pure; it taints the whole purpose of this type of idealistic R in the first place.

Back to Stig
Get over it. It's not our responsibility......Until then, try not to be selfish during LM and just pay attention.

The only thing I will ad/ask is what to do about a wife/SO that won't/suppresses/doesn't give clues?

I get the point, I can't make her have "o"'s if she does not want them. I don't have the right to ask for her to have an "O". I don't have the power to make her "O". Lots of things in this area are out of my control.

I also get the point that sex with out "O"'s for the woman can still be pleasurable for her. And I should stay out of her head/sh!t/stuff. Sometimes it is lonely staying out of the loop.

- And hence the crux of the whole dilemma. It boils down to open and honest communication. And I will pull another poster or 2 into this. Lil and Mr. MD to illustrate a point.

Let's take an hypothetical M (forgive the encroachment Mr. MD and Lil's BF). This M is with Lil. He has IC with her and is about to climax in her. Lil brings on the falsified O in order maybe to make the M feel validated. She has just stated she usually only Os with oral and/or hand stimulation while the M's penis is withdrawn.

He doesn't know this so she feels unsatisfied to an extent. Finally, she takes the chance and tells him what she requires. He is hurt but gets over it.

Now, let's say Lil dumps the M for whatever reason (yeah, had to give you the control here Lil ). The M finds Mr. MD's W (again, MD, excuse this hypothetical M). Mr. MD's W only achieves the O, unlike Lil, via IC. So the M at the point where he feels she is near, withdraws and uses oral/manual stimulation to get her to climax, which isn't a hot button for her. She fades internally yett fake Os to validate him.

Again, he is led down the wrong primrose path and unawares. If she continues the deceit he will never know he has it totally backwards; he is only going off the truthful information relayed by Lil in his previous R.

Goes to my point all Fs are diferent, diferently wired, and is their responsibility to help the M understand the wiring diagram, as only they have the insider knowledge of such.

Lou, as to your W or Fs in general,who suppress or don't give clues. I would have to say to try and go back into your archives. What the R was like during it's most intense sexual period. Did she ever O or appear to O? If so (and she was honest about it) then you have to try to recreate that place.

If you are unsure of whether she did or not and she is repressing then, again, I feel one has to work on the brain first to tear down this wall of reppression. Said before. Part of it is not embracing her sexuality. Why? Poor body image possibility. Depression. Physical pain or discomfort. Low self-esteem. Some type of inner hangup which causes her to deny self of feeling...embracing...letting go with pleasure. Not resolving her own reasons for repression will roadblock any type of effort to reach mutual O. Won't happen and will only foster frustration in the M if he feels responsible...which he is not.

This is all her responsibility. There is no external solution from the M side to "fix" it. All one can do is be understanding, validating, leading, confident, instill trust in her, coax her to let go of her insecurities and COMMUNICATE, and, most importantly, observe observe observe the reactions elicited from physical stimulation/touch in all areas of her physiology.

-Stigmata-