Stig -- I validate validate validate your anger over the idea of women faking. I can certainly why you would feel it is not fair TO YOU. I actually think this is a great reaction. The fear of fakers is that they will instead get the injured male ego reaction.
BF -- I thought this was brilliant:
The confrontation is necessary to get back to Intimacy. It can not be avoided. There is no easy button. Its our biological imperitive/job to lead the way.
Well for the most part, lol. In contrast to the male-centric last line, I think that it is the responsibility of both Ps to be direct, to not avoid confrontation, and to care enough to work through a problem. That being said, being strong and direct are definitely very attractive features in a man, so you offer excellent advice to the H's out there.
A porn addiction is going to result in the wife being completely shut out of a sex life with her H. In essence, he's having his sex life all by himself.
With faking, both partners are present and accounted for during sex--at least physically.
I agree that both are roadblocks to intimacy but think that the complete unavailability of the man with a porn addiction adds a particularly harmful element to the mix.
NOT that it matters; I agree that 'ranking' is silly.
It's a good analogy nonetheless.
Oh and I understand why, once you started with the faking, you kept it up. But I am unsure why it began in the first place..? If you are HD, and presumably want the orgasms, why cheat yourself?
HP asked OT Oh and I understand why, once you started with the faking, you kept it up. But I am unsure why it began in the first place..? If you are HD, and presumably want the orgasms, why cheat yourself?
I think OG_Lou summed it up nicely from a man's perspective about how O's make the man feel (and thus why women fake): 1. I shared some pleasurable times/events with her. (increased bonding) 2. I am a good lover. (bonding and ego stroking) 3.. I took the time or action she needed. (I am considerate) 4. .She accepted my gift of love and sexuality (what I have is valuable and the FM wants the same thing) 5. She will have sex with me more often. (increasing the supply) 6. The sex will be better and maybe more frequent. (increasing the quality / value of sex) 7. The more value the sex is to the FM, with me, the less she will be looking elsewhere. (decreasing the potential competition's value) 8. When we both have an "O", my "O"'s are more intense. (increasing the pleasure) I hope it works that way for her too. 9. She got about an equal (or some similar word) amount of pleasure from the sexual encounter as I did.
My impression is that many women do not know how to get to that place of O-ing most of the time during sex and therefore the faking begins. Or they are simply not comfortable telling the man, I cannot usually O from IC, can you stimulte me here (clitoris, etc). Not easy to do for many reasons that have already been discussed. Stigmata also seemed perplexed as to why women would fake and OG-Lou's summary says it all. Women realize the man puts A LOT of weight on the woman's O whether he means to or not. Some guys have said they wouldn't care/mind if their S o'd or not during the act as long as she was being honest. I call BS on that. If a man had the option of being with a woman who did not enjoy sex but was honest about it and being with a woman who seemed to love sex, O all the time, etc, and had no real way of telling if she was "faking", I think most guys would choose the woman who at least put on the show. Not all men, but most. And yes, it would still be the woman's fault/problem if she chose to fake her way to a hot sex life (or at least the appearance of it). She's really only hurting herself in the end. OT seems to have learned that lesson the hard way.
There are some good strategies for dealing with the faking problem (and other problems) in the book "Reclaiming Healthy Sexual Energy" that I have been quoting extensively on my thread. Like this:
Quote: And yes, she does give some solutions near the end of the book. First she exposes the Rules that our society has about sex, e.g., that if you are in a couple you must have sex, that you should focus on the other person, that if the man loses his erection it means there is a problem, the man is responsible for the woman's O, if the woman loses her arousal it means the man is a bad lover, etc. I realize that not everyone here subscribes to all these rules, but clearly we DO have rules that we believe about how sex Should Be. And let's be clear that there is a distinction between how we would like it to be and how (in our minds) it MUST be. Those "must be's" are why most of us are on this board. So here are her new rules: Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Let the rules speak every time you are aware they are speaking.(Lil note: That is, expose the rules as they pop into your head.) If you find your arousal dropping tell your partner, then let the voices speak out loud. For example, they may say "I must make myself get aroused again" or "Something's wrong with me" or "Oh, no, I'm failing and I'm not a good lover."
2. Put sexual activity second to communicating thoughts and feelings. If either of you feels sex must continue, then it becomes impossible to stop at any moment to learn how the rules are dominating your loving.
3. Discuss your sexual activity after it feels complete. In the process of learning to recognize rules, most of them will go by you unseen. Replaying your sexual intreaction aloud can allow more information to surface for you to work on. This will also help you be more conscious the next time the rule appears.
This is a formula for increasing vulnerability, openness, and intimacy to almost intolerable levels (very Schnarch-y).
Also regarding porn, I quoted some stuff about that. On the surface porn looks like a way of avoiding the partner, and it may be that, but
Quote: According to this example the most unconsciously appealing thing about the woman in the magazine or up on the screen is precisely that she IS in the magazine or on the internet and NOT right here in the room. I think this answers the question "why would a guy rather look at porn when there is a warm naked woman in the house who wants him?" It is the unavailability that creates the sexual charge-- it is the need to SEARCH for love/sex that is part of the ritual of arousal. The FRUSTRATION is also part of the arousal, as is the FAILURE to find love.
In this model it is the UNAVAILABILITY itself that is the turn-on. Unavailability is not to be confused with playing hard to get and eventually giving in. Unavailable means you can NEVER have her; and for people with this orientation, NEVER is an essential part of the arousal.
So, in this model, porn and faking O's cannot be compared; it's like comparing oranges and Beethoven-- not the same species.
FOr what it's worth, this conversation has been so masterfully written and responded to that I must chime in and at least give a mega props to the energy being expended here.
From my perspective/history, I can personally relate to what LfL has just stated. I once had a gf who I discovered was faking almost all the time. I was insulted by the lack of honesty in our most intimate moments and it brought a lot of self-doubt into my abilities to please. It was destructive to my confidence. As to the argument about whether or not a man has any ability to detect a faked "O", I personally think that issue is moot. You either can or you can't. Whether or not you can only plays into how soon you learn that it is going on, nothing more. It just speaks more to the male ego in being a good enough lover to tell or not. And while I do not deny my own ego, I've got much more concerns in my R with my W than being able to tell or not!
Back to this gf of mine, eons ago. She faked regularly. What I learned from this as soon as she admitted to it was that I put an exhorbitant amount of pressure on her to "O". It indeed was an ego thing. I wanted to get my badge of honor for being a good lover, and not be branded as one of 'THOSE guys' who gets in, gets done, and leaves her wondering what just happened. I've always considered it to the level of a fetish the female "O", as I am quickly turned off if she isn't into it.
It was my incessant asking, "Did you??" after sex that opened the door for this gf to start faking because she soon realized that a part of my pleasure was the rewards of HER "O". So a) she wasn't getting satisfied, and b) I felt betrayed. Intimacy came to a screeching halt.
Fast forward.
My W and I have, up until recently, had a very active and healthy SL. I don't know if it has anything to do with her Latin American blood, but she is a firecracker in bed and "O"s ExTREMELY easily and is equally turned on by my own O. I accredit my personal history with the past gf that taught me to not be obsessed with her Os. I learned, as many of you have, that letting her handle it on her own is much more rewarding for the both of us.
But let me say this, the male ego is easily encapsulated, perhaps easily understood, but it is not so easily tempered. While I won't get into my whole story right here, the physical intimacy of my R has recently been interrupted and we are on the mend. I've had my confidence tested in the marriage bed and since we have gotten back together and made love a few times, I have only brought her to an "O" once of the several times we've slept together. I've realized that my ego is being tested and I find myself succumbing to the 'pressuring with Love' exercise in futility. It truly is her responsibility to get 'her head' into it and let herself go. When things were good, there was the occassion where I went too quickly and she always was quick to say that the "O" wasn't what it was all about for her, and because I was confident, there was never an issue. Now that things are rough, I'm faced with my ego/confidence that make her lack of "O"s front and center, which just applies that same pressure I applied to my gf long ago and opened the door for her faking.
I agree, it IS an intimacy roadblock--IF, that is, if it is overtly or covertly front and center in your sex life. Once in a blue moon? Harmless to me...she wanted me to feel like I did a good job and she was confident that I could do it for her again later.
I think it's important for "we sensitive types" to learn to grasp the notion that men and women are satisfied differently. Men are satisfied sexually at the completion of the destination (the "O"), Women are satisfied sexually with the journey--at least that's how I've learned to view it. If the journey was rewarding in making her feel alive, sexy, and emotionally connected, then reaching that "O" is not so important, but just becomes that added bonus at the end of achieved. Once a guy who is sensitive enough to care about fulfilling his partner realizes this notion, he can ML to his partner without feeling like a seed anytime he happens to end too soon. That realization will take some of that pressure away and at least do YOUR part in removing the perceived need to fake. But I think what has been said is correct, it cannot be our responsibility. If you are receptive to her pleasure and desire for being more than a warm body to get your rocks off, that's typically all a woman asks for, assuming the rest of the relationship is relatively healthy!
I greatly appreciate your perspectives here. Thanks for sharing!!
Quote: I think it's important for "we sensitive types" to learn to grasp the notion that men and women are satisfied differently. Men are satisfied sexually at the completion of the destination (the "O"), Women are satisfied sexually with the journey--at least that's how I've learned to view it. If the journey was rewarding in making her feel alive, sexy, and emotionally connected, then reaching that "O" is not so important, but just becomes that added bonus at the end of achieved. ... But I think what has been said is correct, it cannot be our responsibility.
Your whole post is sensitive and sweet-- but the sentiment expressed in first part of the paragraph I quoted is not the way I see things.
In my own case, and I'll not generalize to the female population at large, there are times when I want an O and times when I don't want to bring the mental focus to bear. It's really not a case (in my case) that if the "journey makes me feel alive and sexy, the O is an extra added bonus."
No... in my case, if the journey makes me feel alive and sexy then I REALLY want an O. But again, it is not his responsibility to make me have an orgasm. He can stimulate me manually or orally (IC alone with no manual will NOT do it for me), but I can "take over" (manually, of course... brings to mind a joke about a dog... but I digress) and get myself off with him holding me. And I have to say, for all the complaining that I do about my bf, when we do find ourselves in this scenario, it doesn't seem to matter to either one of us WHO is actually physically touching my clit. He is right there with me, egging me on, sighing, moaning, encouraging me, and when it happens, he is so sweet. If a woman can do this, she NEVER has to settle for doing without an O when she wants one.
Like I said, there are times when I just don't want to make the effort.
But the LM is by no means done just because he has come-- if I want an O, then by golly, we or I take care of it. Sometimes he may even doze off while I finish myself off, but he wakes when I cross the finish line. On those occasions when I want an orgasm, then I need to have one, or I will feel physically VERY cranky. Especially if I've gotten close and then it faded. Even if he loses patience, I have PLENTY of patience.
Anyway, you sounded like you were saying that if the guy can't give her an O then she's still okay because the journey was the more important part. I wanted to say that I don't subscribe to that view for myself. Hope I said that without muddying the waters...
Why cheat yourself out of an O by faking? For no good reason, lol.
I think many things that lead women to fake have been mentioned. But, there are others that lead women to fake to begin with:
--you can be as HD as you want to be and still have difficulty reaching O or take a long time reaching O or be unwilling to tell P that IC alone won't do it for you --to be hot and sexy --to not feel defective because P can't bring you to O --to be like a good sex P is "supposed" to be --to be the guy's fantasy for one night that then gets you plunged into a pattern of deceit (lies have a way of doing that) --sexual insecurity and performance anxiety --to get the O expectation over with so you can relax and enjoy the sex
The one thing I would say about the other comments here is that YES, there is pressure (unintentional or otherwise) from men for women to O, and to do so with too little foreplay during IC. BUT, (1) it is still up to the woman not to fake and (2) the woman may feel the pressure to fake because of social pictures of what good sex is "supposed to be like" no matter how understanding her lover. My point here is that it is far from being a simple problem of what H expects from his W in terms of Oing. Sure, that can be part of it. But, the social message women get that *sexy and desirable* women have strong vaginal Os at the drop of a hat from IC is a huge problem.
As for faking being better because the W is at least there physically, I'm really not sure that is better. Again, this is with the Faking Problem, not the occasional fake. Anyway, with the Faking Problem, you make your P an unwitting participant in producing and maintaining the sexual inauthenticity that is at the core of the problem. You allow someone to give of themselves in a deeply loving, vulnerable way and aren't emotionally present for it, which is an incredibly hurtful thing I think.
With emotional neglect and physical neglect, either can be more painful than the other in a particular case...
Thank you very much for your perspective. I admit that not having very many opportunities to speak about this topic prior to finding this place, I have only had my own experience to draw upon and what I have had to interpret from what little my partners (past and present...eeyuck that sounds icky to pluralize!) have said on the topic.
If I understand you correctly, then it may very well be that it really depends on the individual? Or do you believe that most women share your POV? My W does not like a lot of manual or oral stimulation. She said to me that it feels great, but it gets her only so far and then plateaus (there are exceptions to this rule, however)...she needs to feel me inside her to reach her "O". This presents a problem when I have finished early as she usually seems disinterested in pursuing further
But hey, I'm a positive thinking guy. I take all this as an opportunity to learn about my m8, you know? Once again, thanks for your valuable perspective. I'm still trying to feel out how to discuss such an open and vulnerable topic!!! I really value everyone's openness and respect here...
Hi Mr_MD I have looked at some of your history and am glad to see things are on the mend for you. Just like it my case, there are a lot of issues to work through, certainly related to the SL now, but issues of trust, resentment, ego, all those fun things This is a great place to work through some of those issues so keep posting! No time to get into the details of your post but it was a good one. I especially found this line interesting: I've always considered it to the level of a fetish the female "O", as I am quickly turned off if she isn't into it. I think you are not alone there. Some guys want the woman to O "at all costs" and the pressure on women is very great. Faking is probably more likely in those R, as with your ex gf. I think your perspective now is a good one, but as Lil said, sometimes women really do want the O too. LFL
I don't know much about other women. I've only been able to talk about this with a couple of girlfriends. I think women are reluctant to talk about it for fear they will not measure up to their friends' stories. But again, that's just my experience. There are probably some circles of women friends who talk about sex explicitly and ofter. I've certainly learned a LOT from this board, but even here, people are reluctant to share nitty gritty details...
You wrote:
Quote: My W does not like a lot of manual or oral stimulation. She said to me that it feels great, but it gets her only so far and then plateaus (there are exceptions to this rule, however)...she needs to feel me inside her to reach her "O".
Fortunately for me this is not and has never been true. Fortunately because my late husband was completely impotent from diabetes and my bf has ED. My O's are stronger when my vagina is empty, probably because the contraction has farther to travel when there is nothing in the way. The benefit of having the guy inside during O is more emotional to me than physical. Again, fortunately for me, since a hard E is something I seem doomed not to encounter again in this life...
