This will be a quick post (I hope, I do tend to do megaposts...) as I have very limited time. It will also probably be a jumbled post addressing stuff in both various posts...
Anyway, thanks for writing everyone.
With respect to your superhuman powers to detect fake Os BF, I will agree that you are probably more sensitive than most and thus more likely to find out the truth, but it is far from a sure thing. I'm not sure what symptoms you think are required in order for the resolution of an O to be real, but as far as I know, yes, they can be faked. Moreover, the resolution of real AROUSAL, which is really what you are talking about, can come either with an O or with losing the O (poof, it's gone, gotta start over...)
Now to clarify generally once again.
My claim is NOT the all women fake all the time. Why, if that were the case, there would be no point in talking about this as it would follow that women never O. Rather, I am making the following claims:
1) Almost all women fake or have faked at least sometime.
2) It is beyond the power of mortal men lacking MRIs to tell with a reasonable degree of certainty whether a woman has O'd or not.
3) Faking with a certain frequency and/or consistency that prevents a woman from having an authentic SR with her P is a roadblock to intimacy.
4) Faking is consistent with true arousal.
5) Women who fake occasionally or have a faking problem can be HD/LD and orgasmic or nonorgasmic.
Now, these are things I am NOT NOT NOTsaying:
6) It is the fault of men that women fake.
7) Good lovers could tell with certainty when women fake.
8) If a woman ever fakes it destroys intimacy.
9) Women should never fake.
10) The only reason there are intimacy issues in any R in which the woman is not interested in sex is because the woman fakes.
Again, 6-10 are NOT things that I am saying. But, let me pause to discuss them. With respect to 6 and 7, I do not think it is the fault of one's P if a woman chooses to fake. It is her responsibility. And, I do not think it is at all a measure of a lover's skill, attention, concern, compassion, love, or anything else whether a man can tell if his P is faking. Rather, it is a measure of how well the woman fakes. So, why did I say that a big part of the problem is that men are so sure they can tell??? Well, first of all, I mean the Faking Problem, not just the occasional fake, but the Faking Problem that is a roadblock to intimacy. It is a very difficult problem to uncover and to resolve. A significant part of that difficulty traces to a woman's reluctance to hurt her P and do things that significantly injure the male ego. A woman understands that if she's been in a M for 20 years faking all her Os the whole time and she then communicates this to her H, it is very likely that he will feel deceived and that his male ego will take a terrific blow -- he will feel like an inadequate lover, a lesser man, a fool, emasculated, etc... Thus, the woman feels trapped in an inauthentic SR. Moreover, the propensity of women to protect the male ego often gets the faking going in the first place. What is the solution here? Well, I think BF's approach to be open to women faking and discuss it directly before it becomes an entrenched problem is excellent. But, it is even moreso the woman's responsibility to stop the problem at the outset OR to end it even after it has become entrenched EVEN at the cost of the pain it will cause because both Ps deserve to have an honest authentic SR and NEITHER P gets that when a Faking Problem exists.
With respect to 8 and 9, I have really tried to distinguish between faking that doesn't cause a problem, or at least doesn't cause a huge roadblock to intimacy, versus a Faking Problem. I have compared it to porn use versus porn addiction. Now, some may think that ANY faking is dishonest and interferes with intimacy. Some may thing that ANY porn use is perverted and a betrayal. Fine, whatever. Personally, for me it is now better to never fake and some porn is fine with me. But, really, the issue is tangential to the discussion. Clearly, many woman have excellent sex lives and still fake occasionally. Would it be better if they didn't? Maybe. But, it isn't a huge roadblock to intimacy. I agree that it is unproductive, could reward the wrong behaviors, is a form of dishonesty (whether a white lie or worse), but the occasional fake for whatever reason does not make a great SR impossible. (Stig, as for the meal analogy, what if your W worked very hard on your favorite meal and it just didn't come together right? Is it possible that you might express gratitude and enjoyment even though it wasn't quite working for you? What if the meal was perfect, but you'd just brushed your teeth and eaten grapefruit so it wasn't tasting right?)
With respect to 10, I am merely suggesting that a Faking Problem is ONE thing that can cause a huge roadblock to intimacy, and that it is a problem the depth and breadth of which is not recognized, understood, or acknowledged. I certainly do not think that the Faking Problem is the source of all bad SRs.
So, given all that, the men here have actually managed to surprise me. I expected the denial that their Ps fake, the confident assertion that they are certain of this. But, I'm reading a level of defensiveness beyond which I had anticipated. To return yet again to the porn *addiction*/faking *problem* analogy, can you imagine women feeling attacked if I were trying to get them to recognize that a male's porn addiction is one thing that can cause a huge roadblock to intimacy????
Criminy, my whole point is to say, gentlemen, you may be dealing with a hidden problem that is almost impossible for you to uncover and to address because the power lies pretty much solely in the woman's hands until and unless she decides to share it. I feel BAD for men in these situations. I am saying it is NOT their fault. I understand their pain to some degree, having had an XH with a porn addiction that at least I was able to discover. I can imagine their frustration at trying everything in the world to build a great SL, far more than most men would. I appreciate the real love and commitment it takes to do what everyone on this board to be here and admire your integrity and strength. I am trying to HELP everyone understand something that may defeat even the most noble amorous efforts of the most considerate lover.
Perhaps the problem is the suggestion of powerlessness that elicits the male defensiveness, I don't know.
On the bright side, I think there probably are solutions or at least strategies to be found. Blackfoot's suggestions are excellent. My own suggestion is that an H jumps on any opportunity to establish the expectation that O's and SL will be entirely different now and suggest starting from scratch with the understanding that both Ps are experimenting to see what works. (For *example*, this would be a possibility in Chrom's case because his W has admitted to being flat sexually at this point in their M. -- please ignore whether or not his W is faking, this example is for the purposes of illustration only.) Being able to get to this fresh start state in and troubled SR is probably a great opportunity.
But, the fresh start scenarios might be difficult to find, and asking about a Faking Problem to try to get a fresh start is about as likely to elicit a true response as asking a guy about a Porn Addiction to find out whether he uses porn at a level that prevents him from having a decent intimate R.
And this brings me around to a post by HP on Chrom's thread that I didn't reply to because we moved over here.
HP said she thought the porn thing was worse than the faking thing. Here, I have to sort of agree and disagree, because it depends on the porn thing.
Unlike faking, a sexual addiction that includes viewing porn and also includes phone sex, or internet sex of some kind introduces the factor of bringing outside Ps (in one form or another) into your sex life. This is a form of cheating, on my view. *Maybe* not as bad as having an affair, but infidelity in some sense nonetheless. (I'm not so sure about that maybe, either.) If you add this on top of the other issues, then, to be honest, I'd be inclined to agree that it is worse than a Faking Problem. Then again, I think trying to rank the problems that arise in marriages in this way is perhaps misguided, and, I guess for me, probably interferes with being able to offer genuine compassion and understanding to those experiencing different problems. So, I'll try to resist any sort of ranking impulse... (Does an A in the third year of M while W is pregnant outweigh the harm of an A in the 25th year of marriage when the H is experiencing ED? *Yucky* questions to ask, I think.)
Anyway, with respect to a faking problem versus a porn addiction that does not include 3rd parties, the added element of infidelity is gone. I really think that what is left is pretty much on a par:
Intimacy issues arising from P1 having a faking problem and/or a porn addiction of which P2 is unaware:
1) P2 not being treated with respect because P2 is deceived.
2) P1 not being able to engage in true intimacy because P1 is deceiving.
3) P1 feeling trapped by a history of lies.
4) P1 being unable to be sexually authentic.
5) P2 experiences the sensation of beating one's head against the wall in trying to improve the SR.
6) P1 and P2 both do not have their physical or emotional intimacy needs met.
7) Shame/fear/feelings of defectiveness plague P1.
8) P1 is stuck in a situation in which the truth will cause P2 immense pain (in terms of feelings of betrayl, being a fool, feeling inadquate, anger, feeling M is a lie, extreme breach of trust, etc...).
9) P2 is stuck in a situation in which their best efforts to improve SL seem futile.
10) P1 feels unaccepted, P2 feels unloved.
11) P1's deceit extends to what one is interested in sexually.
12) P2 not being able to make independent informed choices.
Now, with the porn addiction, there are often money issues and tangled webs of lies around those as well. Of course, it is much easier to uncover a porn addiction (not that it is easy!!!) than to uncover a faking problem.
Now with a faking problem, I'm not aware of any money issues. But, there is actual dishonesty right in the marriage bed about what is going on at the precise time it is going on. And, I think it is harder to uncover.
So, anyway, both problems are huge roadblocks to intimacy, and setting aside the issue of activities that fall under infidelity, I think both are very similar in terms of harm and difficulty in resolving them. On the bright side, there is currently the excellent example of GEL and her H who are making great strides breaking through a problem with H's porn use and other "own little sex world" activities. There is also my case, in which I had a faking problem in XM, but now have a very wonderful, intense, passionate, authentic, hot SL in my new M. So, there is hope.
OK, so not a quick post. I gotta get back to work!
