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Ah, the male ego strikes again: "There are very simple ways-- without an MRI machine, to tell if a woman is faking an O or not." If you truly believe this, you are simply wrong






Oldtimer. I like you. I like your posts. I see that you care. I even like your crusade to expose a seriously destructive tactic the kills intimacy. I almost got into it after Stig and I made some remarks about it, but decided to just let time handle it. So thank you for bringing it up. However, your a little adamant about all women faking all the time.

So I baited you with my post. When this post is all read and done, remember, I like you and what your trying to accomplish here.

It is actually not simple to tell, but all skills do become simple the more they are practiced. As for you telling me I am wrong. Shrug. Fine. Matters not to me. I cant emperically prove it to you.

To clarify though I said tell if she is faking. There is no way you can tell if a woman does have one as there are so many different types of O that each individual woman will have. When I am walking down the street and my SO who is wearing her favorite Jeans, pauses and goes 'mmm. I just had an O', (damnit that makes me jealous ) there is no way for me to know.
Men can ejaculate without having an O, but if my SO explodes/ejaculates, --which is much different then the 'liitle peeing' fake tactic (which will definitely prompt my "thats insulting" comment) that you mention, I dont really worry about if she had an O. And Im not inclined to discuss the topic of weather she possible ejaculated without Oing, with her either, as she and most likely I are happy to just lay there and enjoy our resolution.

But that is at the extreme end. So back to the fact that its really not simple to tell but can be done. I said you can tell when she is faking.
But apparently you and all other woman have a superhuman ability to control your autonomic responses.
Personally Ive never met a woman who has more control over hers then I do of mine.

Lfl
how long can you hold your breath, and how fast can you drop your heart rate to 30 beats per minute? Since you have control over your sweating reflex, (and I am not talking about sweating from exertion. I am referring to the whole body prickle that rides up and down the skin in waves and causes micro sweat) tachyardia, and not to mention myotonia, and the sudden release of it, which can be seen and also felt thru the fingertips of those who care too, well I am very astounded. I am very hopeful for you, you should have no problem controlling your attraction mechanism now.

anyways. If a woman is gripping the sheets, moaning, groaning, etc professes her gratitude and claims to have O'd--and doesnt show the requisite resolution signals afterwards, I call her on it.
and you know what. they are shocked for a minute, deny, protest, etc. I will not be swayed. eventually she will say 'how do you know' or some other testing comment. my reply is 'its not important---THAT is not the issue.'. I will not be redirected. they always seem to appreciate the fact judging from the fact that it often leads to an emotional 'opening up' soon enough after my remark, and some intimate conversation where she can feel trust. But I do not relinquish untill she admits.

So I stand by my statement. It comes from confidance,of succesfully having used courage repeatedly to tackle the issue. not ego. I know what I know. and if you say I dont. fine. no point in having this conversation anymore.

Not helpful to discussing ways on how to tackle the issue though.

the confidence with which most men believe this is a big part of the problem

yes. MEN. they are incredibly stupid for taking a womans word and believing her when engaged in the most intimate thing that could be between them. Great place to start --or continue---lying. <sarcasm.> THAT is the problem. <more sarcasm.> Its all OUR fault, that she is faking. <even more sarcasm>

it is excellent that you apparently acknowledge the possiblity of faking during sex

Thank you. Why would I deny that she is faking when I can clearly tell she is faking? The body has to be trained to lie. Its not easy. very few pull it off over extended periods of time. Women who are not in touch with themselves enough to know their sexual response certainly are not going to be able to train it to fake.

That will make women appreciate you, even if they still go on to fake occassionally

good. and good. they need the kegals. If they continue, It is tied up in her need to fake then, as I am not going to care. and call it when I see it. Giving a woman an O is not my imperitive goal. Its nice, and Im pretty damn good at it. ( I think this of course, because she built up my ego with all that faking. Hmm thats helpful, giving a wrong response so he can continue doing what ISNT working. sigh. )
No sense in wasting all thouse physiology and anantomy classes. But if her O is not to be, I dont care, so why would she? Its still an enjoyable connecting time.
OT it seems you missed my early postings where I discussed intentionally leaving a woman unsatisfied, just so the hunger is there.

LFL
There is no way I guy can tell if his partner has O'd with most O's your right. Thats not what I said. I said tell if she is faking.
It's not a reflection on how the man is as a lover. It is ultimately up to the W to make herself reach an O.

True and true. IF you lie, its not his fault. If you keep getting the same, because of your lie, its not his fault.
Why do guys take such offense? Whatcha think BF?
offense to Oing? never met a guy that did.
offense to not Oing? they are uneducated.
offense to faking? its lying and as the thread title says, a roadblock to intimacy. as all lying and continued testing via unbreakable puzzles trying to force your SO to figure you out are. but most of them come from fear. so its understandable, but not acceptable.


OG
Quote:

'There is no need to fake an O. Its insulting when you do, Though truthful, I think this often would come across as insulting to many woman unless there was a great deal of trust for both partners




when she insults me by lying, thats a boundary that I can state, and enforce. If my boundary hurts her feelings, if the truth hurts her feelings, that is her problem to deal with as Corri repeatedly tries to teach us. she can huff, she can puff, she can cry, she can mope. She will get over it and she will appreciate and respect your strength.

apologizing after you have stated a boundary, for that boundary, is not strong, not attractive. its supplicating, becuase of her feelings. Not our problem.
She will respect you for your boundary. It leads to good things. less testing, and appreciation. win/win (not just talking about sex)

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BF's #1, Im fine with it if you cant right now'
Lou's #1, I think this works and sounds good to me.





BF You seem to have more experience with XX's than I do. BB is still my first XX in many ways and I had to put so much time (pre and once marriage) into earning money, some things were not explored or were not even on my radar.

I am posting the above because I am coming from a position of lack of success when trying to be as assertive as you seem to be and have been. I am also thinking about a guy in a similar position to hairdog's.

Quote:

BF's #2, 'There is no need to fake an O. Its insulting when you do,
Lou's #2, Though truthful, I think this often would come across as insulting to many woman unless there was a great deal of trust for both partners.




BF. If HairDog said the second quote to his W what do you think would happen? Hairdog, please jump in here.


I can see the value of both of your above statements as a goal. I just don't want to start a war with statement 1 and 2 statements. I think some women would respond to statement #1 as is and a gentler version of statement #2 as a follow up if things did not change.

What do you think of 'There is no need to fake an O. I would rather have the truth. It is easier to work with.

I agree with you idea that faking is lying and lying hurts the R. I also agree with the women that faked it, that the guy would have a very difficult time determning if her "O"'s were real or faked.

A statement like BF #2 when the W did have an "O" how ever small or intense, is just asking for trouble. I still agree that faking is lying.

Yes, I agree BF some of us guys need to lay it on the line and deal with the fall out, be men not boys.

Anyone have any "O" meters so the guy can tell if the woman is faking?

Thanks for all of your ideas, insights, and suggestions,

Lou

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I had to put so much time (pre and once marriage) into earning money,

Lou,
I understand this feeling completely. It is very important to be a good provider.
But I am interested in your use of the word "had to".
I find many men neglect QT because " I was so busy....."
which leads to ignoring her need for QT. QT -in my opinion- shows interest and desire in the SO. Something everyone craves. There are so many things we put before our marriages/spouse. It end up being a Good Intentions road. However when he/she walks and suddenly we find ourselves with the ability to put everything in second place to the SO.
Also when we get the time, (hmm time, it just magically appears....) and or realize the need for it, the SO resists that QT. Why? Resentment- creating a desire to punish in kind, fear of the warm fuzzies that it generates because the warm fuzzies creates intimacy and may suddenly be yanked away again like it was in the past, leaving them vulnerable and dangling yet again.

Despite requests/statement of need for it. They Avoid the good, to prevent the possibility of hurt.

Make sense?

This fear of the warm fuzzies is one reason its so important to not personalize, and to ignore and plow ahead against any 'protests' about something that they do need.
An example of personalizing....

BF: <thinking -we need QT> Do you want to go to dinner at....
her: um, well, Im kinda tired....
BF: <thinking she doesnt want to spend time with me> FINE. just forget it then. <sulk away and pout.>

What have I just done? Given her a negative emotion. extract one credit from the LB. She is relieved now because dinner would have just been more of the same.

alternate progression.

BF: Im hungry. I want a steak. Lets go to.....
her: um well, Im kinda tired...
BF: <ignoring and plowing> yeah, me too. Lets get going so we can get back early. after a couple glasses of wine your going to be all over me anyways. <Confidantly throwing in some mental imagary.>
her: Ok.
BF: fix your hair so we can go. Just cause your tired doesnt mean I want to be seen with the living dead.
her: <hits me> jerk. <goes to fix hair>
BF: <watching ass wiggle away knowing, yeah, but you love me anyways.>

ok thats easy and simplified. after a long time of entrenchment and protecting themselves, you have to ignore and plow harder sometimes to the point of arguments, AKA rattling the cage.

The confrontation is necessary to get back to Intimacy.
It can not be avoided.
There is no easy button.
Its our biological imperitive/job to lead the way.

None of this was specifically about orgasms or faking.
Honestly, IMO, the power struggles have to be resolved in most SSM, before its time to worry about whether she is faking or you are a good lover.
Doesnt sound like faking is much of an issue in your sitch anyways OG.

About Oing.
When guys realize that a woman Oing isnt all that important and take off the pressure for her to PERFORM and expect her to think/approach/react to sex like we do then that will allow her to open up about it.
Womens sex drives are kicked in by her feelings.
Here are two things that dont work
Talking her to death about your sexual need.
catering to her every whim, following her around like a puppy, and in general vibing her with desperation for validation.
Oh yeah another.
projecting an attitude that "you owe me." That was mine during our reconciliation. < whack to self--ouch.>

A statement like BF #2 when the W did have an "O" how ever small or intense, is just asking for trouble

Yes it is. better be really damn sure of yourself.

What do you think of 'There is no need to fake an O. I would rather have the truth. It is easier to work with.

GREAT conversation starter. I like it. you have to show proof of words with actions though, and that means taking off the pressure for her to O. She isnt a science experiment or a engine to go examining or roughly poking and prodding around in despite Chrissys bad example to the contrary.
(sheesh woman, cut your nails, and make sure there smooth. you dont fool me dissembler)

If HairDog said the second quote to his W what do you think would happen
My guess is HD mostly knows what he is doing in bed. If he wants to send me a video, Ill peruse it and offer suggestions.
Ill also presume that his W is fine with getting her own. They need to have some knock down drag outs, but not about this.

I am posting the above because I am coming from a position of lack of success

Its all about perspective. I dont consider myself succesful either. I envy you your succesful 30 year, marriage, with grown children and secure retirement.

You had/have really good boundaries with your money management. BB liked that undoubtedly. Time to transfer those boundaries to another area of your life. Its really hard to get out of those entrenched nueral pathways especially when they are feed by early negative emotional motivators.

Take the dogs to the kennel, Drag BB along with you on some new adventures, and have some fun with her. Shake things up. Be unpredictable.

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Very insightful post blackie and right on the money.


It can't come quickly enough And now you've spent your life Waiting for this moment And when you finally saw it come It passed you by and left you so defeated. Scissor Sisters - 'It Can't Come Quickly Enough'
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This is Chrissy sticking out her tongue at you BF.


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Sparky

Thank you.

Women have a job to do also, of accepting, being appreciative, being respectful, supporting, loving and not going toe to toe. Oh yeah, and eliminating filtering, the talking in code and constant testing. General example of testing---If he really cared, he would figure it/me out.

Um yeah. Right.

If we didnt care we wouldnt be there, slaving our butts off for home, hearth and family.

For specific details on how to do this, check with some of the succesful ladies. I still havent quite got it.


-----------------------------------------------------

OT.

Ive been waiting for you to reply, but I dont know when I will be on again. So while Im sitting in my hotel in san fran, I thought I would take care of it. Its either that, go to a bar and practice my social skills, watch a movie or play online games. very unstimulating.

The sarcasm in my reply was unnecessary. It was in fact my first reaction to that part of your post.
I took it out and then I put it back in. Why? because lately I have been taking a different tack of responding to some women some of the time with normal male reaction. I think the reaction and then discussing the dynamic that causes it is of value.

Just wanted to let you know, I do see both sides of it, know some of the reasons why women do this to stroke mens egos and also try to avoid by faking. Its not a solution though. Its avoidance and not even a bandaid to the problem.

Just wanted to remind you, Im on your side. (I hope.)

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I knew there was a reason I gave this topic a wide berth, as I had mehntioned way back in GEL's Saga thread. Tsk tsk, OT. Setting the trap. Like Wile E. Coyote painting a tunnel on the side of a cliff.

Meep-Meep! Whooooosh....here I come, trailing billows of smoke....

First. Faking is lying. I have found that lying in Rs is well...-nuff said.

Second. I absolutely cannot freaking stand when OP have the presumption to control the information I receive, information I perhaps in their brains "can't handle," or "would make me feel like less of a man." Just give me the damned information and get over yourselves. I'm a big boy and my own person.

Give me a break. I will decide how I react. You insult me and denigrate me by making that decision for me and it's more than a little arrogant IMO--even if it is very well-intentioned. Stop that. Whack to the hand. Don't touch my power. It's mine.

Now. The O. Ms. Understand that each F is diferent. Each one is like having to learn a whole new foreign language. Some are easy to figure out like pig latin while others need a friggin Rosetta Stone and even then are untranslatable stimulus-response-wise.

Get over it. It's not our responsibility. It becomes such when we have a schematic wiring diagram of the billion neural pathways and are able to pinpoint the O circuitry. Until then, try not to be selfish during LM and just pay attention. Forget about it. It's not our thing to deal with. Likewise, whether we ejac. after 30 seconds or 30 minutes it's not the Fs responsibility. It's our wiring diagram KWIS? And in both cases with practice and well-focused "mentalization" we can control these things.

Now. Faking Os. Ugh. Why do you start this Fs? Not helpful. And if you're consciously thinking about faking the O then your head aint' really into the session and you're thinking way too much. Just let it go, clear your mind, and focus on the pleasure. That's helpful.

Also. If my SO cooks a really nice dinner and it tastes like salted cardboard I am not gonna go: "oooooo....mmmmmmmm.....ahhhhhhh.....ohhhhh that's sooooo gooooood. Mmmmmmmore. Ohhhhh God. O god yesss."

If I do? I can expect to be served the same crappy salted cardboard dinner for the rest of the R, smiling stupidly while my stomach lurches and she feels so good about herself via my LIE.

I don't do this. Why? Oh, I guess because I try not to be a masochist. Or make her feel a thousand times worse when I end up in the hospital one day getting my stomach pumped after another shtty dinner of the same and then have to confess I had been faking my enjoyment of her horrible horrible dinners for 20 years.

The resultant confession which then serves to traumatize her never to make an effort in the kitchen ever again and just "show up." (sorry, Chrome, not to rub my salty cardboard dinner into the wound.)

So Ms. Not everyone climbs Mt. Everest every single time. Let it go.

Fs. Quit faking. Train your mind to reach a point of bliss where you don't have to fake and mentally give yourself the physical O, instead of worrying so much what the M might "feel" about his perceived-by-your-high decree insecure manhood.

If an F has an O with me. Fine. If not? Shrug. Doesn't make me less of a man IMO. If we both received pleasure then I'm not gonna ruin it by unEarthing an nonesential negative and subsequently crush both of our post LM buzz. There's always time for me to learn hopefully. And if not she'll just have to figure it out for herself if/when she wants one and how.

...Now, OT, you may scratch your head and wonder how the hell I managed to zip through your painted tunnel...

Meep-Meep!

-Stigmata-


The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge;
the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.

-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-

...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ

-Stigmata-
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RE: BF
Lou, I had to put so much time (pre and once marriage) into earning money......BF, I understand this feeling completely. It is very important to be a good provider. I understand this feeling completely.

BF, I have part of a reply, why, and part of the solution but don't want to hi-jack this thread so will post on my thread. I am also not finished working through some thoughts/things so don't have a complete post right now. I am re-reading my reply and filtering it through some of the concepts in some books I read previously and am reading now.

One book eludes to how people developed thought patterns, refered to as brain wiring or cross wiring in some cases, and another book concept is "toxic shame" in which I use the concept and apply it to "toxic work habits," ( which I add toxic ego gratification IE what makes me feel good/worthwhile) or why I felt so compelled to work.

I did not want you to feel or think I am too busy to respond or feel I am dodging your previous post to me.

Lou

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RE: Stig
It becomes such when we have a schematic wiring diagram of the billion neural pathways and are able to pinpoint the O circuitry. Until then, try not to be selfish during LM and just pay attention.

Good post Stig. You have wonderful writing skills.

We heard a lot about FM's faking "O"'s. Here are some Why's I think about or what used to motivate me for wanting BB to have "O"'s.

If she has an "O": (not necessarily correct ways of thinking)
1. I shared some pleasurable times/events with her. (increased bonding)
2. I am a good lover. (bonding and ego stroking)
3.. I took the time or action she needed. (I am considerate)
4. .She accepted my gift of love and sexuality (what I have is valuable and the FM wants the same thing)
5. She will have sex with me more often. (increasing the supply)
6. The sex will be better and maybe more frequent. (increasing the quality / value of sex)
7. The more value the sex is to the FM, with me, the less she will be looking elsewhere. (decreasing the potential competition's value)
8. When we both have an "O", my "O"'s are more intense. (increasing the pleasure) I hope it works that way for her too.
9. She got about an equal (or some similar word) amount of pleasure from the sexual encounter as I did. I don't want the only person to be having a great deal of excitement/pleasure/fun. Sort of like only having one Oreo cookie. If we split it, it seems fair. If I eat the only cookie ( only one having an "O", I feel like I was selfish. (avoiding guilt) Not too different than wanting the OP to have as good a time as we had.

On #9 I think guys have a difficult time really knowing or being able to feel what pleasure women have/get from sex and ML. I think guys/me want to see some sign that what men are doing or wanting is what the woman wants too, a similarly shared experience.

And the main point for ME,
10. Biology, "O"'s feel so good, in a rewarding, committed relationships, and the process getting there is wonderful.


An analogy might be a guy liking golf and his W goes along with him every time but she never seems interested in the score, the equipment, or the other elements of the game. He loves to better his score, likes to talk about equipment and just loves her to be with him. She just likes to walk on the grass, feel the breeze blowing and goes through the golf motions to get outdoors and be with him because he wants her there. Deep down, golf is really not her thing. (analogy enhanced to make a point)

More pluses (feelings, thoughts, beliefs, but again not necessarily correct ) to want or wish the FM has an "O", but no time to list them.

Back to Stig
Get over it. It's not our responsibility......Until then, try not to be selfish during LM and just pay attention.

The only thing I will ad/ask is what to do about a wife/SO that won't/suppresses/doesn't give clues?

I get the point, I can't make her have "o"'s if she does not want them. I don't have the right to ask for her to have an "O". I don't have the power to make her "O". Lots of things in this area are out of my control.

I also get the point that sex with out "O"'s for the woman can still be pleasurable for her. And I should stay out of her head/sh!t/stuff. Sometimes it is lonely staying out of the loop.

Thanks Stig.

Lou

Take what you can use, dissagree with parts that seem wrong.

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Hi Blackfoot and Stig (and HP),

This will be a quick post (I hope, I do tend to do megaposts...) as I have very limited time. It will also probably be a jumbled post addressing stuff in both various posts...

Anyway, thanks for writing everyone.

With respect to your superhuman powers to detect fake Os BF, I will agree that you are probably more sensitive than most and thus more likely to find out the truth, but it is far from a sure thing. I'm not sure what symptoms you think are required in order for the resolution of an O to be real, but as far as I know, yes, they can be faked. Moreover, the resolution of real AROUSAL, which is really what you are talking about, can come either with an O or with losing the O (poof, it's gone, gotta start over...)

Now to clarify generally once again.

My claim is NOT the all women fake all the time. Why, if that were the case, there would be no point in talking about this as it would follow that women never O. Rather, I am making the following claims:

1) Almost all women fake or have faked at least sometime.
2) It is beyond the power of mortal men lacking MRIs to tell with a reasonable degree of certainty whether a woman has O'd or not.
3) Faking with a certain frequency and/or consistency that prevents a woman from having an authentic SR with her P is a roadblock to intimacy.
4) Faking is consistent with true arousal.
5) Women who fake occasionally or have a faking problem can be HD/LD and orgasmic or nonorgasmic.

Now, these are things I am NOT NOT NOTsaying:
6) It is the fault of men that women fake.
7) Good lovers could tell with certainty when women fake.
8) If a woman ever fakes it destroys intimacy.
9) Women should never fake.
10) The only reason there are intimacy issues in any R in which the woman is not interested in sex is because the woman fakes.

Again, 6-10 are NOT things that I am saying. But, let me pause to discuss them. With respect to 6 and 7, I do not think it is the fault of one's P if a woman chooses to fake. It is her responsibility. And, I do not think it is at all a measure of a lover's skill, attention, concern, compassion, love, or anything else whether a man can tell if his P is faking. Rather, it is a measure of how well the woman fakes. So, why did I say that a big part of the problem is that men are so sure they can tell??? Well, first of all, I mean the Faking Problem, not just the occasional fake, but the Faking Problem that is a roadblock to intimacy. It is a very difficult problem to uncover and to resolve. A significant part of that difficulty traces to a woman's reluctance to hurt her P and do things that significantly injure the male ego. A woman understands that if she's been in a M for 20 years faking all her Os the whole time and she then communicates this to her H, it is very likely that he will feel deceived and that his male ego will take a terrific blow -- he will feel like an inadequate lover, a lesser man, a fool, emasculated, etc... Thus, the woman feels trapped in an inauthentic SR. Moreover, the propensity of women to protect the male ego often gets the faking going in the first place. What is the solution here? Well, I think BF's approach to be open to women faking and discuss it directly before it becomes an entrenched problem is excellent. But, it is even moreso the woman's responsibility to stop the problem at the outset OR to end it even after it has become entrenched EVEN at the cost of the pain it will cause because both Ps deserve to have an honest authentic SR and NEITHER P gets that when a Faking Problem exists.

With respect to 8 and 9, I have really tried to distinguish between faking that doesn't cause a problem, or at least doesn't cause a huge roadblock to intimacy, versus a Faking Problem. I have compared it to porn use versus porn addiction. Now, some may think that ANY faking is dishonest and interferes with intimacy. Some may thing that ANY porn use is perverted and a betrayal. Fine, whatever. Personally, for me it is now better to never fake and some porn is fine with me. But, really, the issue is tangential to the discussion. Clearly, many woman have excellent sex lives and still fake occasionally. Would it be better if they didn't? Maybe. But, it isn't a huge roadblock to intimacy. I agree that it is unproductive, could reward the wrong behaviors, is a form of dishonesty (whether a white lie or worse), but the occasional fake for whatever reason does not make a great SR impossible. (Stig, as for the meal analogy, what if your W worked very hard on your favorite meal and it just didn't come together right? Is it possible that you might express gratitude and enjoyment even though it wasn't quite working for you? What if the meal was perfect, but you'd just brushed your teeth and eaten grapefruit so it wasn't tasting right?)

With respect to 10, I am merely suggesting that a Faking Problem is ONE thing that can cause a huge roadblock to intimacy, and that it is a problem the depth and breadth of which is not recognized, understood, or acknowledged. I certainly do not think that the Faking Problem is the source of all bad SRs.

So, given all that, the men here have actually managed to surprise me. I expected the denial that their Ps fake, the confident assertion that they are certain of this. But, I'm reading a level of defensiveness beyond which I had anticipated. To return yet again to the porn *addiction*/faking *problem* analogy, can you imagine women feeling attacked if I were trying to get them to recognize that a male's porn addiction is one thing that can cause a huge roadblock to intimacy????

Criminy, my whole point is to say, gentlemen, you may be dealing with a hidden problem that is almost impossible for you to uncover and to address because the power lies pretty much solely in the woman's hands until and unless she decides to share it. I feel BAD for men in these situations. I am saying it is NOT their fault. I understand their pain to some degree, having had an XH with a porn addiction that at least I was able to discover. I can imagine their frustration at trying everything in the world to build a great SL, far more than most men would. I appreciate the real love and commitment it takes to do what everyone on this board to be here and admire your integrity and strength. I am trying to HELP everyone understand something that may defeat even the most noble amorous efforts of the most considerate lover.

Perhaps the problem is the suggestion of powerlessness that elicits the male defensiveness, I don't know.

On the bright side, I think there probably are solutions or at least strategies to be found. Blackfoot's suggestions are excellent. My own suggestion is that an H jumps on any opportunity to establish the expectation that O's and SL will be entirely different now and suggest starting from scratch with the understanding that both Ps are experimenting to see what works. (For *example*, this would be a possibility in Chrom's case because his W has admitted to being flat sexually at this point in their M. -- please ignore whether or not his W is faking, this example is for the purposes of illustration only.) Being able to get to this fresh start state in and troubled SR is probably a great opportunity.

But, the fresh start scenarios might be difficult to find, and asking about a Faking Problem to try to get a fresh start is about as likely to elicit a true response as asking a guy about a Porn Addiction to find out whether he uses porn at a level that prevents him from having a decent intimate R.

And this brings me around to a post by HP on Chrom's thread that I didn't reply to because we moved over here.

HP said she thought the porn thing was worse than the faking thing. Here, I have to sort of agree and disagree, because it depends on the porn thing.

Unlike faking, a sexual addiction that includes viewing porn and also includes phone sex, or internet sex of some kind introduces the factor of bringing outside Ps (in one form or another) into your sex life. This is a form of cheating, on my view. *Maybe* not as bad as having an affair, but infidelity in some sense nonetheless. (I'm not so sure about that maybe, either.) If you add this on top of the other issues, then, to be honest, I'd be inclined to agree that it is worse than a Faking Problem. Then again, I think trying to rank the problems that arise in marriages in this way is perhaps misguided, and, I guess for me, probably interferes with being able to offer genuine compassion and understanding to those experiencing different problems. So, I'll try to resist any sort of ranking impulse... (Does an A in the third year of M while W is pregnant outweigh the harm of an A in the 25th year of marriage when the H is experiencing ED? *Yucky* questions to ask, I think.)

Anyway, with respect to a faking problem versus a porn addiction that does not include 3rd parties, the added element of infidelity is gone. I really think that what is left is pretty much on a par:

Intimacy issues arising from P1 having a faking problem and/or a porn addiction of which P2 is unaware:

1) P2 not being treated with respect because P2 is deceived.
2) P1 not being able to engage in true intimacy because P1 is deceiving.
3) P1 feeling trapped by a history of lies.
4) P1 being unable to be sexually authentic.
5) P2 experiences the sensation of beating one's head against the wall in trying to improve the SR.
6) P1 and P2 both do not have their physical or emotional intimacy needs met.
7) Shame/fear/feelings of defectiveness plague P1.
8) P1 is stuck in a situation in which the truth will cause P2 immense pain (in terms of feelings of betrayl, being a fool, feeling inadquate, anger, feeling M is a lie, extreme breach of trust, etc...).
9) P2 is stuck in a situation in which their best efforts to improve SL seem futile.
10) P1 feels unaccepted, P2 feels unloved.
11) P1's deceit extends to what one is interested in sexually.
12) P2 not being able to make independent informed choices.

Now, with the porn addiction, there are often money issues and tangled webs of lies around those as well. Of course, it is much easier to uncover a porn addiction (not that it is easy!!!) than to uncover a faking problem.

Now with a faking problem, I'm not aware of any money issues. But, there is actual dishonesty right in the marriage bed about what is going on at the precise time it is going on. And, I think it is harder to uncover.

So, anyway, both problems are huge roadblocks to intimacy, and setting aside the issue of activities that fall under infidelity, I think both are very similar in terms of harm and difficulty in resolving them. On the bright side, there is currently the excellent example of GEL and her H who are making great strides breaking through a problem with H's porn use and other "own little sex world" activities. There is also my case, in which I had a faking problem in XM, but now have a very wonderful, intense, passionate, authentic, hot SL in my new M. So, there is hope.

OK, so not a quick post. I gotta get back to work!

Best,
Oldtimer


Best,
Oldtimer
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