Help! STBX said he wants to give us another try!

[HopingForMiracles]

Thank you so much for your encouragement and support, Sam. I really feel that you know how I feel and how things went wrong between H and I, etc.

You are very right about our relationship. In fact, one of the MCs we tried told me that over time I have developed the mother role and H just followed my directions. And it is almost scary b/c my parents are just like yours. My mom has always been in charge, and my dad just listens. She complains a lot about him, b/c of course in her mind he cannot do anything "right". This annoyes me, and I feel very bad for my dad, and often tell my mom to ease on her nagging. But you know what?? I did exact the same to my H!

I always negotiated when we purchased cars and home, as I "planned and negotiated" better than H. I decided which daycare S3 goes to. I suggested H which jobs to apply. I "decided" that it's time for us to take vacation. I always picked the hotel, etc. I decided how much we can save each month. I started our retirement and S3's college funds, and I did all the research and investing. I always came up with plans for the weekends.

Yes, w/o realizing it, I was controlling his life. And for him, maybe it was easier to just follow me.

But I do not want to be like my mom, even though I love her so much and my parents are very close. I do not want to nag my H like my mom does.

My H just sent me an email:

"Instead of taking S3 out tonight why don’t we have dinner again like we did last time. I can get some noodles

What do you think
H"

Tonight S3 has his Karate class so I won't be able to do dinner with H anyway. Should I just tell him that tonight won't work? Should I also send him the email about us? Like you suggested, I will probably not include the second part of my email. I may just simply suggest that we have dinner and talk in person.

Or should I just for now respond to him saying that we cannot have dinner tonight b/c of S3's class? This is not a lie, but why do I feel bad saying this???

[HopingForMiracles]

Doesn't H's email sound very casual?? He decided that I am okay with him coming back to our house freely?

I do not want to sound like a controlling and cold b****, but I do want to make a point that I do not want S3 to be involved just yet. He is going to get his hopes up and get hurt.

How about if I reply to his email by saying:
"S3 has his class tonight (which is true - I told H about S3's class on Tuesday nights so many times before but obviously he does not remember) and we will be late, so it will not work for us. If we are going to have dinner, I do not think S3 should be present yet at this point".

How does this sound?

[sam2004]

Hoping I just typed the following info to you below and saw that you had posted with more questions. I am going to post this now. I will be rereading what you just wrote and respond when I am finished. I want to post this for now.


Listen to this chapter Hoping. You have to get this book!

This is a short section on how and why the male needs to be accepted. It is from the second book I gave you by John Grey, "Men, Women and Relationships"

"The Male Need to be Accepted

When a man is "accepted," he is received willingly. This attitude cultures a man's belief in his abilities. When a man's actions are unconditionally accepted then he feels free to explore ways he can improve those actions. For this reason, acceptance is the basis of behavioral changes in a relationship.
This need for acceptance is especially important for men. Sometimes women appear to accept a man based upon his potential, however; this is not true acceptance. They are waiting for the day when he will change, and then they will be able to accept him. But men need to be accepted for who they are today, not who they will be tomorrow. A man will tend to become stubborn and resistant to change when he senses that he in not being accepted.
When a women does not accept a man, she will feel compelled to change him. She will tend to offer suggestions that will assist him in changing, even when he has not asked. Some men are open to suggestions as long as they have requested them, but a man typically feels unaccepted when a woman is preoccupied with changing him or "improving" him. She imagines that she is respecting his needs by wanting to help; he fells disrespected, manipulated, and unaccepted. When a man does not feel accepted, he will unconsciously or consciously resist change.
A man is motivated to change by hearing and understanding a woman's feelings and needs. When he senses that his attempts to support her will be welcomed and appreciated, then he easily inspired to fulfill her wishes. Her acceptance ensures that if he fails he will not be disapproved of, but will be willingly received with some gratitude for his efforts.
Acceptance allows him to feel that who he is today is enough to please and satisfy his mate. With this kind of confidence his is more willing and able to give his parner the respect and understanding she deserves. Most women do not know this secret about men. They mistakenly believe that the way to motivate a man to change is to complain, nag or disapprove.
When a man feels his imperfections are unaccepted, it may take days before he can come back to his true, giving self. One of the ways he unconsciously or consciously gets revenge for his partner's nonacceptance is to repeat the very behavior that she resists.
A women does not understand this, because when a man is unaccepting of her behavior, one of her first reactions is to change or improve her behavior. In this respect women are much more secure than men; they can listen to feedback about ways they can improve their behavior without as much resistance, sensitivity or defensiveness. Certainly a man can take feedback, but he needs to be feeling good about himself and be willing to hear it. Rarely is it effective to give unrequested criticism or advice to a man.
A man is sensitive to correction when he is feeling his need to be accepted; if he already feels accepted, he can easily take the feedback."

This is some good stuff Hoping. I am going to reread this book. Even though I read it before, I have forgotten a lot of these things and have stopped applying them. It is time to retune things and make them better. I am so glad I pulled this book out of the closet!

You want to hear a funny story. When ex and I were first married, I read John Grey's first book. It was really popular back then. I latched onto the part about being thankful. It says this will motivate the man to do more. It was like working voodoo on ex. He became my personal slave!!! I am evil I know. He came home for work that evening and did something like wash the dishes--I can't remember. I hid the book under the bed and did what it said. I went on and on thanking him. Next, he started doing my laundry and cleaning the whole house!! I can distinctively remember sitting in the bedroom laughing. I called my mom and she just loved it!!! It was so funny!!!That was a long time ago when we were first in love though. Things have gotton a lot more complicated since then. Too bad I forgot about that book back then. I should have kept pulling it out and retuning things. Funny!!!!

[sam2004]

You know Hoping, I read your last two posts and they have gotton me thinking. I am just putting it out there so digest it and throw it back up if you like.

Who says that the next time you speak to husband you have to decide on everything right now and here? Why not just spend time with him and enjoy it. Forget about all the problems for now--they will be waiting. Just have fun and savor the good times. I see how you don't want to get son hurt again, but honestly, how much could the three of you being together hurt things. Maybe you are right. I don't have kids and don't understand things from your perspective. You know your son's reactions better than mine. Maybe it is better to make the next visit with him just the two of you, but I still think it should be light with no relationship talk just for now. Let ex know this too. Just say to him, let's have fun for now. Maybe in the future we can talk about working on our marriage. See how he reacts to this.

You know, men do think way differently than women. When I read what your H wrote last it reminded me of my own ex. When our divorce was first filed, ex invited me over to spend the evening with him. He was starting to change his mind, but I didn't realize this and brought him back to his initial to desire to divorce.

He just wanted to eat and watch TV together. My world was falling apart though and I couldn't not talk about the relationship. I didn't realize ex's world was also in shatters and for the moment he just wanted to forget about the problems and enjoy the evening. I didn't realize what a golden opportunity this could have been back then. I wish I would have done differently way back then. Things might be different for me today.

This would also help you determine if he is in a rush to get back with you because of his own personal financial situation.

Just an idea. What do you think?

[Just_Me]

Hoping,

I agree with Sam. This doesn't have to be all sorted out in advance. There is nothing wrong with going with the flow, which is what your STBXH wants to do. At some point you should indicate what you want out of a relationship and what some of your anticipated issues will be (ie trust, etc) so that he is aware of them, but it doesn't have to be yet. Let him take the initiative on that.

He isn't going to come back like a woman would...after talking things through. The only problem is that he will take you spending a lot of time with him as a "yes" to coming back. I would suggest spending a pleasant, low stress, low demand evening with him (and your S) and see what develops. If at some point he opens the door to reconciliation talk, that is the time I would choose to state what your hang-ups may be. Don't talk about what he needs to do or what actions he needs to take. Let him tell you himself without prompting. You control the situation now and you also have the breaks. If he starts talking about moving his stuff back in, just say, "Whoa. I didn't think we were at that point yet. I still have some issues trusting your motives and your commitment to trying again." If that is enough to scare him off then I guess he wasn't ready anyway.

[HopingForMiracles]

Thanks Sam and Just. Okay, I am confused... You guys actually "recovered", so I think you two really know what's going on. So I truly value your advice.

On the other hand, others have suggested that I should set up boundaries and also be straighforward with H to see if he is serious, and should not get S3 involved.

I want to protect S3, yet I hear what you are saying. Knowing H's personality, your approach probably works better, which is to just "go with the flow". But I am very scared, b/c I do not want to go through what I and S3 went through all over again.

Now, here is the update..., basically, NOTHING!!! In the end, I just simply replied to his email (he wanted to have dinner with us but S3 had his last Karate lesson) yesterday afternoon saying:

"Actually, tonight is not a good day because S3 has his class and we will be late."

I did not want to go into our R talk or anything, so simply replied to his request for dinner. I did not suggest to pick another day or anything, but did not think this sounded too cold either. Besides, he should know by now that S3 has his classes on Tuesdays (I have told him about S3's Karate classes several times before).

What was his reaction to this? Absolutely NOTHING!!!

I could tell he is upset, b/c I am not agreeing with him or jumping onto his idea of reconciliation right away.

Shortly after he moved out last May, one day he called me several times at home, but I was out so did not get his messages till I got home late. Since it was too late, I just called him back the next day. But in the mean time, he left nasty messages - one said "since you are not talking to me, I am going to talk to a lawyer!". I called back and told him "but H, I was out - how am I supposed to answer your calls if I was not here???"

He is very impulsive, and short-tempered. If he does not get what he wants right away, he gets mad. I am pretty sure he has OCD.

This thing bothers me, b/c it appears H is not very serious about the recovery. If he really wants, he should not get mad at me just b/c I did not say "yes" right away, doesn't he?

Having said that, since I haven't officially answered to his "request" of giving our M another chance, I want to send him an email today. Now, this one talks about "serious stuff", b/c I wrote this before reading your posts/advice. Again, others have suggested that I should be clear on what my concerns are, etc., so this letter includes those of my questions/concerns.

---------
Dear H:

Hope you received my email yesterday about S3's class. It was his last Karate class and he did okay - he was a bit distracted. In April, he is starting his swimming classes and hopefully he will be more interested in them.

I have given a lot of thought on what you suggested. I agree that having both parents is the best thing for S3. I know he misses having a male figure in the house.

At the same time, I do not want to break his heart again. He is now used to his new routine, and the last thing I want to do is to get his hopes high up and crash them - that will scar him so much.

I think we can have dinner or something alone, without DS3, sometime to talk in person. What do you think?

Hoping
--------------------------------

What do you think? I know, it's better to find out now if H is serious or not, and this is a good test - if he changed his mind ALREADY, of course it would not have worked out, so it's good, but at the same time I want to believe it is going to work, so seeing him this way makes me sad. Or maybe he KNOWS if he makes me nervous he gains power.... This might be a power game.

This is so hard.....

[Just_Me]

Hoping,

I think you might be worrying too much. If he is actually serious about trying again, making him wait, taking it slow, being cautious, aren't going to kill your chances. For once, you have the power in this. He's weaving all kinds of images of you with a bf and he doesn't like it. I think that is his "hurry". He wants you swearing off from the OM ASAP. It's okay to get some one on one time. Don't stress conflicting advice...whatever you choose to do will likely be fine (that's contigent on him actually being committed to trying again). I might not have specified on my thread, but when XW said she wanted to try again, I didn't just jump at the chance and she made all the effort. She did the calling, the talking about the future, and the coming over. What I meant by "going with the flow" is just to let him do the work since he's the one suggesting trying again. You just be cautiously open to the idea. And just so you know...I did tell her straight out what I felt my problems with this would be (ie I don't know if I can trust you, I'm not sure you are committed to this course, etc). You can be brutally honest because if he wants you he can't just expect you welcoming him with open arms. I think that your e-mail points that out quite nicely.

[HopingForMiracles]

Thanks Just. Yes, as you can tell, I am chikening out....

I was doing well w/o H, so why am I feeling this way now? Guess I am in shock....

So I was thinking maybe I will just send him a short email (since H does not like heavy stuff...) simply saying:

"H, sorry Tuesday did not work out. I am available on XXX instead".

Then find a babysitter for S3, so that will not be an issue. If H asks for S3, then I can just say "well for now we can meet alone so that S3 can remain in his routine" or something. Then when we meet alone, if H wants to address the issues in our M, I can ask him some questions and also tell him that I do not want to break S3's heart again..., etc.

You know, the sad thing is that I cannot trust my judgement anymore after being beaten up pretty badly over the past 16 months! You are right, though, Just, I should not be worried too much. I am okay w/o H, and if he wants reconciliation, just b/c I could not give him what he wanted yesterday should not tick him off. If he is not okay with this, then he probably has secret agendas and his desire for reconciliation is not based on pure motives.

[HopingForMiracles]

UPDATE:

I ended up sending the letter I wrote, also b/c I thought about it again and felt that if I just send the shorter version, H will never get my "point" of not wanting S3 around and that it is not like I am 100% open to his idea of reconciliation YET. I thought if I just provide the alternative date, he would just pop over. He has never been good at "getting" someone's points unless they are clearly laid out in front of him...

Anyway, I sent the email this morning. An hour later (okay, so he is not acting like he is in such a rush anymore), he sent me this email back:
-------------------
I agree - we should start slowly.....Do you think XXX (our friend) can pick S3 up Friday so we can have dinner at the house? I have chicken breast and bread crumbs if you can supply the salad...

H
------------------

Now, the impression I got from this? BAD. He does not even want to go out? This definitely makes me think that he is having a money issue. He is too cheap to take me out to the dinner? If I can supply the salad??? Whaaa??

Or am I being unreasonable to feel this way? Do many WHs act like this?

I am already being discouraged about us trying...., both of us need to adjust our expectations BIG TIME...

I know, expecting him to show tears in front of me apologizing for what he did to me and DS3 and giving me a bouquet of flowers is unfortunately unrealistic and is something that happens only in the movie, but still.....

[kml]

Or....he might be thinking his chances of getting you into bed are better if he's in the house with you and S3 is gone? Or he might be thinking that this conversation will be too emotional to have in a restaurant???

Ellie