Also, how about if your resolve this feeling about yourself, then you may become indifferent to whether you initiate or he initiates. Then by you taking the lead, you can have more intimacy that will help you feel more connected, even though you intellectually know that you may no longer need that connection to feel good about yourself. In other words, even if having more sex affects your affect, why should the person who does the initiating be the defining criteria to how you feel about yourself?
What if he were somehow disabled so that he could not initiate no matter how much he wanted to. In fact, say you know he wants to initiate all the time, but is incapable (let’s just assume this for sake of argument). So you have to do all the initiating, but you know he would like to. Would this change how you feel about yourself? What would be different to some watching from the outside, not knowing what is going on in your head, versus what is happening now? I am trying to show that everything would be the same except for what is going on in your head. So yes, I agree with you that this your pathology.
But push this analogy one step further. It seems to me my example is EXACTLY your situation. In reality, your boyfriend’s hangups make it so that he CANNOT initiate, even though he loves you, as you say. So really, what’s the difference? Shift your thinking. He has a disability (maybe lots of them), he would like to be more intimate, but because of his “sickness” he can’t. But he still loves you. You just have to help him. Why should that diminish you?
Quote: Shift your thinking. He has a disability (maybe lots of them), he would like to be more intimate, but because of his “sickness” he can’t. But he still loves you. You just have to help him. Why should that diminish you?
One problem with the "partner with a physical disability" analogy is that since most of us have never been in a situation in which we had a partner with a severe physical disability we would like to think we would be all noble and understanding in that situation. I think in the real world it would probably s*ck. I mean you could tell the woman whose husband has Alzheimer's that just because he can't remember her name doesn't mean that he doesn't love her and it would probably be true in some sense but it wouldn't make her situation less s*cky.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
If JJ had said "Clearly, this isn't working ME . We haven't had sex in 6 months. Would you like me to help you find an apartment?". I can see that as a practical application of getting/making/having the LD leaving. It still has elements of not wanting to be the bad guy unless it was agreed on in advance. You did say you told your H something like this by saying you might leave the R after the kids were out of school if the R went back to being less sexual past some point.
I just wanted to have everyone see that ownership, by inserting the word ME is important and clearly explained.
I see/feel hints of not wanting to be the bad guy pop up often on the forum to often.
And I HAVE been in several R's with men who were physically disabled in one way or another, a situation that becomes more common as you get older.
So, Cobra, you are right-- brilliant, in fact!-- he does love me, he wants to be able to initiate, but his ED (and emotional issues) prevent him from doing so.
[For those who haven't memorized my BOOKS thread, when a man is impotent, he has sexual thoughts, but his penis does not respond as a normal penis does when its owner has sexual thoughts. Because the penis does not respond, the ED guy concludes that he is NOT aroused... in fact, he is NOT physically aroused, and to him, physical arousal was always the signal that it was time to have sex. No hard penis = no interest in having sex. ED breaks the self-reinforcing feedback loop: sexy thought or sight-erection - feeling aroused - more sexy thoughts - harder E - time to have sex. The physical incapacity caused by ED can make a guy think he is no longer turned on by his partner, and this can cause him to conclude he isn't in love with her anymore, she's too fat, he needs a new partner, etc.]
This is great... many new perspectives today...
Mojo wrote
Quote: most of us have never been in a situation in which we had a partner with a severe physical disability we would like to think we would be all noble and understanding in that situation. I think in the real world...
I'm sure you'd like the opportunity to rephrase this... I assure you that the world of physical disability is quite real... in fact, honey, the longer you live, the closer you are getting to it... It would be good to become noble and understanding NOW so you'll be in practice when it happens...
edited to add: Alzheimer's is not a good example because it is the mental aspect that is changed-- other mental conditions that change the personality, or make the person emotionally inaccessible AS YOU KNEW THEM are not good examples. We're talking mostly about physical disability here.
Lou picked up on what I was feeling too on your earlier post. It also follows up on comments I made where I think you are in a denial phase, “not wanting to want.” I sense a lot of low level resistance that even comes out in your latest comment about a "partner with a physical disability."
I get the feeling you are adding a new twist to it by overlaying what seems to me to be a view through your filters. I also get this same impression throughout this thread that you have somehow very tactfully twisted the differentiation exercise around to come back to placing your relationship problems on your spouse. The cover for this is that you say you have come to accept and be happy with a new level of “not wanting to want.”
But my impression is that this a really a way to avoid your own issues. Shutting down emotionally is self denial and it seems very similar to what Lil is contemplating. But your justification differs in that Lil is confronting and accepting WHY she is hurt. I think you are still denying that you ARE hurt.
Mojo is an Enneagram Seven (as is my bf) and the Seven avoids pain at all costs by distraction, addiction, anything to avoid feeling the pain inside.
I (and Mojo's H) am an Enneagram Four-- we tend to wallow in pain, we are not afraid of emotional pain-- on the contrary, it's where we live, often to the disgust and annoyance of the Seven who is perpetually on the run from pain.
Quote: If JJ had said "Clearly, this isn't working ME . We haven't had sex in 6 months. Would you like me to help you find an apartment?". I can see that as a practical application of getting/making/having the LD leaving. It still has elements of not wanting to be the bad guy unless it was agreed on in advance. You did say you told your H something like this by saying you might leave the R after the kids were out of school if the R went back to being less sexual past some point.
I just wanted to have everyone see that ownership, by inserting the word ME is important and clearly explained.
I see/feel hints of not wanting to be the bad guy pop up often on the forum to often.
This is a good point. I guess the reason I am assuming that it isn't working for "us" rather than just "me" is that most LD spouses say that they are unhappy in the relationship too. So maybe what I'm really saying is if that situation developed there would be nothing further that I would be willing to do to save the relationship so there would be no reason for me to be angry.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: But my impression is that this a really a way to avoid your own issues. Shutting down emotionally is self denial and it seems very similar to what Lil is contemplating. But your justification differs in that Lil is confronting and accepting WHY she is hurt. I think you are still denying that you ARE hurt.
Okay, this is sort of a hypothetical situation anyway since my H is having sex with me now on a regular basis so there is no reason for me to be feeling hurt. But given a future scenario in which he stops having sex with me on a regular basis, you are correct that I will choose to shut down emotionally, want to not want and leave the relationship. However, I will be well aware that this is what I am doing so I won't really be in denial or at least I won't be in denial that I am in denial .
I can't remember his name but there was one LD guy who posted for a while after his wife left him. She was kind of a genius of denial because when she left she told him "You are obviously gay since you don't want to have sex with me.". Was she more or less in denial to the extent that she actually believed that he was gay? The interesting thing is that as the result of her action, however lacking in introspection or empathy it might have been, her H ended up on this BB and in therapy working hard to really confront and overcome his sexual issues. Maybe there is a set amount of denial in any relationship and the more you hold onto yourself the less is left to cover your spouse. Granted, the spouse who is not in denial is the one who will be working to improve themselves the most but, geesh, we all need a vacation from self-improvement once in a while, especially Type-7s like me .
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I need to learn more about this Enneagram stuff. I’ll put it on my list. It sounds like 4s and 7s are about as ying and yang as you can get on this scale. Maybe that explains some of the problems in your R? The more opposite you two are, I would guess the higher the potential for enmeshment, and therefore the harder to differentiate, the bigger “push” needed to get you and your partner to move off center and start to evolve. I need to take that Enneagram test and find out where my wife and I fall.
Does it stand to reason that once you start to evolve and become more functional, the more polar opposite the partners are, the stronger the eventual relationship can be?
The Enneagram doesn't have polar opposites. The structure is sort of like a star with an opening at the bottom. I have more than a dozen Enneagram books, and this is the best one to start with: The Wisdom of the Enneagram . I would not recommend any of Riso's earlier books; they are darn near incomprehensible.
Here is an Enneagram site that you might get something out of: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ There is a free test to see what type you are. This is similar to Myers-Briggs. It's just a personality typing system, but I find it very revealing and reliable.
Re Schnarch, et al. ... this board got into him for a while, then we got into the Enneagram for a while, then into Undefended Love for a while... all have much to offer and resonate with some people more than others.
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