Hi Jenny... Just resurrecting your thread to say how glad I am you are posting again. I always felt you had the most similar upbringing to me.... the wack-o mom and the nurturing dad whom I adored but who failed to protect me. You became assertive and independent...I was unassertive and independent; both of us were missing out on intimacy ( a failure to become interdependent)?
I find it interesting that the "cures" for our marriages are polar opposites...you've stepped back and allowed H to move forward while I have had to assert, assert, assert...something my H really needed from me. Both you and I have had to do these tasks in a truly differentiated manner.
Now that you are back I have it easy...all I have to do is just do the opposite of you...of course this is fusion with you but who cares, lol.
Quote: Now that you are back I have it easy...all I have to do is just do the opposite of you...of course this is fusion with you but who cares, lol.
LOL too.
I think it's interesting to note that as you became more assertive you became more HD and as I became less assertive I became more LD. Finding the balance can be tough.
One thing I've been pondering lately is the issue of feminism as it relates to HD/LD. It's kind of interesting how both LD and HD women can use feminism to support their POV. For instance, LD women on the BB have made arguments along the lines of "I shouldn't have to have sex just because my husband wants me to. I'm not his chattel.That's archaic!" and I might make the argument "I should have the right to express my sexuality freely and initiate any time I want to. I shouldn't have to sit like a modest little china doll on the shelf waiting for my husband. That's archaic!".
I used to think that LD women who made the first argument were pathetic. From my POV, this argument was made from a position of assumed powerlessness and therefore reinforced sexual stereotypes. It seemed nonsensical to me unless you pictured the husband as a completely violent brute. I would think "Clearly as a modern woman in our modern society, you don't have to have sex with your husband, but you don't have the right to expect him to be happy about it."
I couldn't see the lack of sense in my own HD stance along the lines of "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.". Clearly, as a modern woman in our modern society, I can express my sexually freely and initiate sex at will but I don't have the right to expect that I'll get the reaction that I might want.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: When I discovered the extent of my H's porn usage, I was at a stage where I was trying to be accepting of his LD because I thought it was due to his tendency towards depression. Therefore, when the porn issue hit the fan, I felt somewhat deceived, but also very ripped off.
It's truly a non-issue for me now. I assume that he looks at it sometimes since most men do but I refuse to consider it as competition or a replacement for sex with me.
I'm still completely fascinated by (and somewhat noncomprehending of) your attitude change.
Tell me if I'm getting this correct: You realized that your initiating sex a lot and seeking evidence that your H is/was LD was counterproductive, i.e., wasn't getting you any more sex and was putting both of you in a bad mood. So you convinced yourself that not having as much sex as you used to want is okay. You wait for your H to initiate, and he does often enough that you're content with the sitch. Is this right?
Please explain this part
Quote: Since my premise is that there is no good reason not to have an active sex life, I don't care how bad the bad reason is any more.
On the surface it sounds like this means you don't accept his lame excuses for not wanting sex any more (i.e., just saw a sad commercial on tv, so not in the mood), but if you're not ever initiating, when do you still encounter "bad reasons" any more. Presumably you would only encounter excuses if you were initiating and he was turning you down.
I don't know what's happened to me. I seem to have become stupider and more literal-minded in your absence.
I guess my bottom line question is should I apply your method to my sitch, to wit, should I just accept the idea that my bf will never have an E (and thus will not experience himself as aroused and wanting sex), and get okay with that? I realize that that is an option, but thinking about doing it makes me sooooo furious. Did you go through a period of anger before you got to acceptance?
You are not married, right? You like/love this guy like a best friend? although you would like it to be more than just a roommate/best friend. Based upon what you have said I really don't see anything happening sexually between you and your partner, face it you have been together for what 5 years and nothing has really happened so far, so it likely will not happen in the future.
Why not accept him for the friend that he is and find yourself someone who can love you the way you want to be loved. What is holding you back from this?
I hear ya, dafty... it makes sense... the only thing keeping me from doing that is... what? am I head over heels in love with him? no. Our life together is perfect EXCEPT for the IC. If I initiated other sexual activity, he would go along with it.
This is why I'm so interested in how Mojo got okay with wanting sex less.
And in my case, it's not so much that I want the sexual activity (if I wanted it, I could initiate it, and he would be fine with that). I want to FEEL wanted. I want him to act like he finds me desirable. I want this so *I* can feel okay about myself. Maybe that's not very differentiated, but that's the way I feel. The fact that it's NOT very differentiated makes me wonder if I should do something about my attitude, a la Mojo. Hence my presence on her thread (and this hijack of sorts).
There is too much that I like about this R to just throw it over because of the lack of IC and lack of all the stuff that the HD men on this board do to their LD wives (nuzzling while they're engaged with knives and steak in the kitchen, copping a feel while they're on the sofa watching tv, rolling over and stabbing them in the hip with the goods in bed, rubbing their backs, drawing baths for them, patting them on the a$$, etc.). The fact is I've never been in a R where the sex was good for the long haul. I have no reason to believe that at this stage of my life and emotional/spiritual maturity that I'm capable of attracting a man with whom I could have such a R.
Therefore at the moment I've chosen to hang around and work on my attitude. Working on one's attitude is hardly ever the wrong thing to do. I do appreciate your comments, sis.
Biological anthropologist Helen Fisher had Stony Brook University students thinking about romantic love yesterday, asked age-old questions about attraction, bonding and the odds of staying madly in love for decades.
"Romantic love is not designed to be a permanent state," said Fisher, author of "Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love" and a research professor at Rutgers University. "It would not be adaptive to carry it [romantic passion] throughout the relationship."
The brain has evolved three systems: sex drive, romantic love and sustained attachment, she said, and each is important in maintaining a long-standing love relationship. "You can have it all, but it isn't easy," Fisher said.
She shared her neuroscientific studies of love and rejection yesterday during a session with students and later at an open lecture to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Mind-Body lecture series, held at Stony Brook's Staller Center.
She talked about brain chemicals and sex and head-over-heels love in the animal kingdom. The students absorbed the sobering fact that in 97 percent of species (not including humans), males copulate and flee. Few stick around for life. But neither do females. Fisher suspects relationships are maintained only if there is a biological necessity to do so.
Fisher's latest lab studies suggest the brain responds to rejection in the throes of love with a unique pattern that may be similar for all age groups. Collaborating with Stony Brook love researcher Arthur Aron, they recruited men and women who were recently rejected after being passionately in love. Their brains told the sad story of hope, despair and anger. Their brains were scanned as they looked at a picture of their former love. The scan showed the brain actively crying out - the same brain region involved when gamblers engage in high-risk behavior.
Other regions also came into play: an area of the brain that regulates physical pain, as well as a region involved in obsessions and anger control.
"A lot of these people still have hope," said Fisher of her brain-scan subjects. "I wanted them crazy [in love]. These machines are expensive."
She and Aron recently finished scanning people in the throes of romance - and found strong signals in the brain areas governing reward.
What Aron and Fisher have come to believe is that a complicated mix of chemistry and life events leads to a match. "People tend to fall in love with people who love them," Aron said. "You have to gauge what someone is looking for."
RE Lil I have no reason to believe that at this stage of my life and emotional/spiritual maturity that I'm capable of attracting a man with whom I could have such a R.
Oh?
Are you saying older women have no chance at finding the whole/complete package? Or you doubt there are many men you would like because they would not meet enough of your standards?
Age? Don't move or live across the street from some (age appropriate, single, "HD men on this board do to their LD wives" ) like you described above.
There are a few single guys like that. I am sure they would notice you and start thinking about a potential R if they knew you. The next typical problem would be, maybe you would like them but not want to live with them.
I also hear you saying your bf has many traits you always wanted in male partner and are balancing the advantages of staying with what you have verses what the R is still missing.
I read several post of left behind women. A common fault of their post's were the H left her for a younger women and she had no control in the matter. IE the LBW used the age excuse. Yes age is a factor, but not the only factor or the main factor why men leave a M.
Lil, just trying to eliminate the age factor if that was what you were trying to say. Yes the percentages go down.
Lou, I wasn't referring to my age. As Schnarch says, we attract people who are at our level of differentiation, and I believe that includes people who are at our level of psychological and spiritual maturity-- not AGE maturity, but emotional advancement, development, wisdom, wholeness.
The place where I find myself with my BF is a place I have been before in a R. I have every reason to believe that if I broke up with him, and got into another R, I would be in the same situation in very short order. I have NO reason to believe otherwise.
I don't think I am through cultivating this garden yet. There is still fruit and nourishment for my growth here. In the past, I used to think that changing partners was the answer. Now I have figured out that that doesn't work. In that way I have an advantage over those of you who have been in one major R for 20-30 years.
Until we resolve the issues at their root, namely, inside ourselves, we will go right out and UNCONSCIOUSLY select the same partner in different skin and different clothes. We can't help it. I'm not making this up, I promise.
I certainly believe you can find love and hot sex at ANY age! The new Gail Sheehey book "Sex and the Seasoned Woman" is all about that!
Re Lil I wasn't referring to my age. As Schnarch says, we attract people who are at our level of differentiation, and I believe that includes people who are at our level of psychological and spiritual maturity-- not AGE maturity, but emotional advancement, development, wisdom, wholeness. I remember some of those things from a few of your other posts. Life and R's sound so complicated sometimes.
if I broke up with him, and got into another R, I would be in the same situation in very short order. Sounds a little like you know R’s are complicated. Good observations.
That thought triggers a picture of you as a child and your dad not being there for you and doing what is considered the right thing.
Situation( you were sick I believe, and your dad was going to give you a blanket but your mother said you could get it yourself).
This may not apply to what you are thinking or saying. It is just something I associate with a child wishing they had a better parent. In the case of parents, there is little choice except for extreme cases. With partners we have choices, you can change yourself, and sometimes modify the other person’s reactions or behaviors.
In the Assertiveness book I am reading, they say to really evaluate what you want and what you are asking for is, a)deliverable by the other person, and b) is there a likely chance they will give it to you for what you are bringing to the table. It is just another tool to remove some peoples should’s or rules you say get in the way of people living a better life.
I don't want you to tie that into any trait you have or your bf has in this situation. Just something I think some people need to take a closer look at.
In that way I have an advantage over those of you who have been in one major R for 20-30 years. Thanks for sharing your insight and experiences. I can use what others have learned and are willing to pass on to people willing to learn.
You said: And in my case, it's not so much that I want the sexual activity (if I wanted it, I could initiate it, and he would be fine with that). I want to FEEL wanted. I want him to act like he finds me desirable. I want this so *I* can feel okay about myself.
You also added: There is too much that I like about this R to just throw it over because of the lack of IC and lack of all the stuff that the HD men on this board do to their LD wives (nuzzling while they're engaged with knives and steak in the kitchen, copping a feel while they're on the sofa watching tv, rolling over and stabbing them in the hip with the goods in bed, rubbing their backs, drawing baths for them, patting them on the a$$, etc.).
Everything you mention here about wanting to be wanted, desired, IC, foreplay (copping a feel, patting your a$$,etc)are all sexual in nature and you say want to find a way to get around this aspect of your relationship because everything else is good.
So my question is, what can your BF do to make you feel desired, loved and wanted, outside the realm of normal sexual behavior. Maybe this is the answer you are looking for??
