Thanks that is my problem I am expecting a bulldozer to knock down those walls. I need to get in that frame of mind brick by brick. Great analagy thanks!
OK, I need help. I am weak and horrible, but dealing.
I have no idea why (well, b/c I am STUPID) but I snooped (for the first time in weeks) into Hs email. Turns out he's still emailing AND VISITING the Fcoworker--not that he promised that he would stop, nor did I ask. Pisses me off, b/c last week he was complaining that he was working so hard, so long, and he's just flitting with others and taking my sympathy. Turns out I think this may be more than I thought--I refused to believe it, but I think he may be in love with her...pursuing her and enjoying spending time with her. I never thought he could be more in love with someone else than me....but I am so dispicable right now. What is weird is that this was sent last week and this weekend was nice. Not spectacular, but really nice. I don't think they had sex...one reason is that he said he could not have unprotected sex with me after with her, and also b/c mostly, I know that he could not do that and not committ to her--too much to undo. What in the world do I know...maybe they are and I am just being stupid. I am freaking out....so, here are the emails...what do you think? Please, I'm losing my cool, and I need an opinion. Is this just a good friend or more? I think more...I think he really likes her...of course, he says they were just hanging as friends, but does that mean they had more at one point?
I am letting go....all the way this time. This is so hard for me. I have no idea how to ever trust H again. He is someone totally different...I don't know this person...he's in a fog right now. I don't know if he can come back. I don't think he has feelings for me. I don't know if I can trust him if he does. He'll never miss me, she is the person he will miss, from the emails, it's pretty obvious. ***********************************************
H's EMAIL IN RESPONSE TO HERS BELOW: "sorry about the pics...Had a great time last night...not that I'm surprised, but baby is really cute...hope I didn't disturb her by my mysterious presence. Furthermore, I hope I didn't disturb you by my presence...just wanted to hang as friends. I get the feeling that you may want 2 talk to me to let me know not to stop in on you again...if so, I understand. Anyway, I'd love 2 talk. I'm hangin w/ XX in XXX, then coming to do charts way late tonight. I'll call u then.
I'll get u the money tomorrow so u can live large this weekend!
Hope ur day was good as well.
XXX ********************************* HER EMAIL...ORIGINAL "Hey, i couldn't open the pics you sent... i guess its a lost cause. Maybe, I could drop by to check it out on your computer. Oh well... How was your day? Busy? The last bill came in today... just to let you know. But i really think that we need to talk. what do you think? "X"
First of all........slap on the hand for snooping! It does NO good.
Now that you got your 2x4......I'm so sorry about what you discovered. It sounds like he is sort of pushing himself on her. I see nothing in her email that insinuates she wants to make plans with him. And he states that he feels the "talk" will be about him not stopping over anymore. It's actually a good thing. Whatever is going on between them may soon be over.
All that being said, you DO need to detach completely. Let H deal with the consiquences of his A (be it emotional or physical). Continue to do the things you have been doing for yourself. I know this is a blow, a big one at that....but you can and will get through this. If you detach to the point where reconciliation is not possible, then you know that YOU hung in there and tried everything possible to make it work. H cannot blame you for not trying. And don't ever let him try to.
Also....the money thing. You didn't say anything about that. Are/were you aware that he owed her money? Or is that a surprise to. If I am reading right, she has a baby?
Hang in there, stop snooping, detach and focus 100% on you.
~SE
I'm moving on...at last I can see...life has been patiently waiting for me.
Me-32 WAH-35 DD-11 DS-4 H left 11-03 Piecing- 12/04 WAH again- 03/07 Married 12 years Divorce final May 15, 2007
Absolutely! Love is based on trust! Don't even think about that, all you need to focus on is working on yourself. My H moved out and he had an A which he said he ended. I just have to believe it is true. I am making changes on me that is all any of us can do. These things we are fixing need to be done whether we stay with our S or move on to the next relationship.
Snooping and worrying about H's A is a waste of energy we need all our energy focused on our changes. Don't stray from the path you are doing so good. This changes nothing!
Yes, shame on me. But, still, glad I know--I am ashamed b/c on Willowalks thread, I posted NOT to snoop and here I go...sorry Willow.. Weird, this weekend, I came to odd terms with the possibility of this very thing, and I was OK. I really see his need for a friend now....a very close friend that fills his need to be liked by another female...etc, etc. Admittedly, I have the same needs. There is a male coworker that lights my day when he smiles at me, and got hit on last night and it really made my evening, I was on Cloud 9. Before, it wouldn't have flattered me so much. Now, with rejection so present in my life, I can feel what H goes through.
In his earlier emails, it seemed that he was ignoring her. There was a point where he did not call her for a while, and she had pestered the hell out of him. C said that was an indication that he wasn't in love with her....or else he would pursue. Now it seems to have flipped around....he is pestering her (or just my assumption off of a few emails).
Good thing I journal here...I read back to my posts from last week and how H was. He had several days (little I saw him) that he was moody, sad, really, I thought then, looked guilty, pained. This is the time that he visited her.
I guess she has a baby. No, he doesn't owe her money...he gives $ to ANYONE that asks. The bill...remember the PHONE that he had that was a secret, well, I now think, and suspect, it's a phone that they share??
These emails, there is NO romantic anything, and he can be VERY romantic. He can pour his heart out, and he states he wanted to "hang as friends." In past emails also, he thanked her and said he was blessed to have her as a "friend."
Also, the PA part....I guess it does matter to me. I really am hoping there is no sex. Of course, who wouldn't .BUT, it also hurts to see your H be enamored with another woman. BUT, given that I know what he thought of me then, who wouldn't want someone else. I have felt that way about him as well...not to this extent (lying, etc), but have definately seen other men, when I was disgusted with H, and thought of what it would be like if I never married H and married them instead--married a man with those qualities instead...was charmed by those qualities and would talk of them. What would it be like if I were single, never with him. Harsh thoughts that I even confessed to H.
The PA part....she wrote him an email the week before I discovered all of this, for Valentines. She pursued him in the email (didn't look like he wrote her Happy Valentine's first), and she indicated that she had "tickled" him and she wanted to give him a kiss, but the note would have to do (indicating that she didn't see him that night, but probably talked). I would THINK that if they had sex, she would have written that in there??!! Why leave it out? All of her emails were SO JUNIOR HIGH/Puppy Love. Also, I know H (same situation presented itself years ago when dating)...if he had sex with her, I am so sure that he would have a problem having her be the OW without committment (that happened once...he could not leave the OW for me(technically we were breaking up) b/c he didn't want to USE her nor did he want to mess with me again that way)--in none of his emails did he talk about leaving me, and I was NEVER mentioned in any email...he would feel bad hurting her (sounds corny, but I know him). If nothing else, he really cares for her. I also know that he would have totally rejected me sexually, and he didn't (keep in mind, he was angry at me and mean). Of course, others say that they had GREAT sex during spouses affairs. Who the hell knows.
Funny thing is that if he likes her so much, why not leave me, date her? In emails he doesn't mention leaving me, nothing. Weird, even the day I threatened to walk out, he said he was confused, but understood if I needed to. Why not just say, OK, leave, I'm not confused?
I literally cannot believe all of this. He is SO different than the man I married. This is SO unlike him. I don't know what to do. I don't know if I can trust him, ever. Why keep in touch with her still? I am glad that I came here instead of storming to see H. I will not confront him about this. There will be a day, but not now.
Another weird thing. This weekend was REALLY different than others. This morning, he tickled and kissed me all over, HE initiated. He did this a few days ago too. Other little affectionate things he has not done in a LONG time. We talked great. he asked me out to dinner last night. He came home excited to talk about his plans and not eager to run away all weekend. I did something he normally (before) would think was cute and he saw it and kissed me....hasn't done that in MONTHS since everything exploded. Again, litle things that seem to be that he is reaching out in real ways....we ML this weekend and it was DIFFERENT. More like before...when he really looked at ME, touched me, etc. Still not totally 100%, but really felt like this weekend was a breakthrough. WTF??!!! Today, I saw him at work, and he looked happy to see me....smiled big, not his usual freaked out look when he sees me. Yesterday he said "us" in many sentences, never implied breaking up (never has), indicated having children, I tried not to count all these things before....but here they are.
If I read my GUT, here is what it says: he was VERY confused about US. He still is, less so. Through this mess of months, he thought lots about leaving me, about me leaving him, was/is so angry, sad and guilty for his actions, feels so unloved and rejected. He so wanted to believe that I was all bad and could not change, that things would never ne what they were. That he could never be in love with me again. He was pushed away so far. Too many walls to pull down, too much pain and need.
These past few weeks, he's been testing, observing, watching. I haven't cracked. I've let him have space, freedom, even indicated that he was with friends. I have always been happy to be with him. Not overbearing, not jumping into his walls and not finding my own happiness. Not moping, not expecting ANYTHING. A few conversations that we connected on this weekend, too.
Before the blow-up, he was backed off of her, and she initiated and pursued and came on strong. His emails were not affectionate or anything....talkign to a DEAR friend. For some reason he always deleted them, never kept in the InBox, but all of mine were there (believe me, not pumping myself abotu this), the phone was hidden and never home, even on weekends (another thing, he works on weekends for short times, but never left town with her, you would think he would have). For some reason, I think his feelings, R and interaction with her was "subliminal" in his mind. He was sincerely baffled that what they had would have been inappropriate, wrong. It was like he himself was shocked. Like he was hiding it from himself. THAT IS FREAKING SCARY. Like everything was so kiddie, funny, cute, that he didn't think it was a big deal. Like the rush of a good friend asking you to play hooky from work....innocent, right? Just a little harmless fun, right? I mean, it's not like we're running away or anything, right?
I think that he "snapped" when I confronted him. He realized that he was leading this silly double life that was going too far...needed to put the brakes. I think he still wasn't sure of what he was going to do with me. He was still, honestly, confused....our last blow-out was the PERFECT time to quit. He didn't. At the same time, He wasn't going to committ to the M when he didn't know if it would work, or was worth it...so he kept the friendship. I think he DID talk to her about things and maybe pushed back and cooled it off...talked about how they were friends, getting the wrong picture, gave the wrong message. I would hope that if they were hot n heavy, and he pushed back to "just wanna hang as friends" that he would apologize to her a little more and that emails would be more dramatic...what a JERK not to...I would hope that she would be more upset, and he would too. I think that's why her emails NOW are cool, she is pushing back, she is mad. I think he is pushing the "friend" think b/c he feels bad and guilty, b/c in a way, he used her. He is giving $ and all sorts of things out of guilt. He wants to push the friend thing, so she won't think he drops her cold turkey...he has snapped and realized that he led a friend on. Still going to her home, having the phone is like proving to her that "see, there was nothing in the first place, we are friends, we can hang as friends, it's not like we need to stop anything, b/c it was all innocent..." I also think that he got scared thinking of his job here. If she gets angry, she can blab to tons of people, and then he's finished. I think he snapped and saw that he was committing career suicide (if he decides to stay with me, if he doesn't he can do whatever he wants), over nothing that he was serious about. I know him, he would FLIP the world if he was serious about her....he did for me....most certainly, he would have taken an easy out and let me leave easily. AGAIN, this is NOT to pump myself up, but to understand his mind. This is the last day I will analyze his mind, b/c I am going steps further in letting go. Now, it's ALL ABOUT ME.
Now, I think she's a little ticked. I think he's trying to play like it was cool all along. I think he tested me over the weeks and knocks out a few bricks here and there. I think he's lifting out of some fog. Starting to see what he did, and seeing me again....even the way he looks at me or laughs, it's like he's trying to be with a friend....like looking at me again.
BTW--H just called now....to profusely THANK ME for running an errand for him during lunch. WHAT??!! HE HAS NEVER CALLED ME, voluntarily, FOR ANYTHING since we exploded, and even WAY before that. I didn't skip a beat. I did tell him that he didn't have to thank me overboard, it's a simple errand. He seemed to "try" so hard in the conversation, not eager to get off the phone. We had laughs, a good talk. Then, he started a song in the background, it was a VERY special song to us, when we got back together long ago. I didn't know he had it. I remarked what a beautiful time that was, he said he remembered, neither of us made a big deal of it. THAT WAS WEIRD. He would usually go out of his way to forget a song or memory, and this time he played it and cranked it up so I could hear. I kept saying that he had to get off the phone and he said no and kept talking. I chatted the whole time. I told him about my plans for next weekend, and he said he could make it too. hmmm. Does he know I checked the email? Don't think so...who knows. Then, I got off the phone with him. A little awkward, but considering the day I've had...who CARES.
I plan to not skip a beat today. Weird...I feel like dejavue. With our last 2 breakups, I feel we went through similar things, which is why detaching was so easy. This is such a damned cycle for us. One I hope NEVER to repeat. Geez.
Still, I have no idea what will happen. Things may still go south--all my ponderings above could all be crap...how would I know, I'm dealing with a person I have never met. I am so over things right now. You know, when I read the email today, I wasn't desperate, not horrified that things were comign to an end...just prepped for bad, prepped to leave, thankful that I had an upcoming trip. So, I guess in ways i did let go. I analyze H and the whole thing, not b/c I'm obsessed, but b/c of curiosity over something that impacts my life, that is a mystery to me, because it involves me, at its core.
I am detached....the Always you've seen for the last few weeks is BACK. Just a few hours of drama in my head, and now I feel stronger than ever. Nothing like being scorned to make you stand on your own 2 feet and feel DAMN good. I know who I am and what I'm worth. I know what I deserve. I won't look back until I get it, with H or with someone else. I am human, I make mistakes, I paid for them, and I am done with that. I will still be loving, detached. The rest is up to God, fate and the powers that BE.
OK--that was an insanely long and stupid rant. Sorry...no wonder I rarely get posts...everyone is so sick of reading my inane rantings. Well, the confident me is back.
I ran into H, talking to another friend (the cute coworker, of all people). For the first time, H came up to me to say hello, in a cute way. I was nice, sweet, but OFF. Totally detached. I smiled, but avoided eye contact. I KNOW he could tell something was up...in fact, I think that's why he called to say Thank you...he is almost psychic with knowing if I know something. I don't want him to think that though...and then go and HIDE more things to keep it from me. I want him to go about his business...not hide things b/c he is afraid of me knowing.
Then, I talked to H, casually, not with the same enthusiasm I had the last days/weeks. Friendly but flat. It's all I could muster. He asked me to come to his office...WHAT?? He HATES me being there, and I have not gone since our blow up and before that, since we exploded...he asked that I not come. I said OK. He was eager to talk, chat, showed me new stuff, pictures, again played music that I loved. Just very excited that I was there...yet, again, all I could muster was flat and nice/happy. Just calm. He could definately tell something was up. At one point, I saw that his hands were SHAKING. He has steady hands...it's what he does for a living...so I commented on this. He gave me a look of shock and panic. I asked if he was OK, hands shaking. He said he had worked out and his hands were shaking...sounded nervous. I asked if that was really it...and he looked me square in teh eye, expecting me to be angry...instead, I patted him on the knee and said, "I mean, maybe you're nervous I'm here, the last time I was in your office was a HORRIBLE night..." He seemed relieved that I wasn't angry....then made a comment that he KNEW I would ask that. I dropped it. He didn't seem in a rush for me to leave, I told him I had to go. He walked me out. I casually said goodbye. His phone rang 2x...I said that I would leave so he could take the call. He got jumpy and emphatically said NO, he has no idea who calls him there, no one has the number and went on for 20 minutes about how no one calls him on the phone and he needs doesn't need to pick it up. I didn't say a word.
He is definately kissing butt, going out of his way to invite me, be excited with me, prove to me that all is OK and all is clean. Hmmmm...SHOULD I WORRY about this behavior? He feels caught in a lie. Before, he wouldn't care and blow up at me for checking on him...maybe he would have if I confronted him. For the first time...he was TRYING. I wasn't. That was nice. Normally, if he perceived me angry, he would not call, would not initiate being with me, he would withdraw more. This was weird.
But, I'm back on track. Getting geared up for the trip and quite excited thinking about that. Thinking abotu getting things ready at work, and making plans to hang with friends. H, well, come what may. I will not engage in this crap--life is too dang short.
Once again nice recovery. Don't worry about his behavior, try not to read too much into it. He could have decided to give you two another try and is just nervous about what might happen. You read the emails and they turned out to be nothing. Plus he is warming up to you. Be the one that gives him attention don't let her. I know what you are talking about with that attention. Sometimes when I touch my H's head he is like a puppy moving his head around wanting to be petted. Like he is starving for attention or affection.
I have to stress don't waste your time thinking about this woman. That is not where your energy should be focused.
THANK YOU...you're such a dear. Stay strong and focused.
Funny, I got the package of clothes that H force ordered for me (again, guilt, b/c I NEVER buy things and here are these other friends milking $ out of him) and I saw it tonight and stuffed it in the trunk. Have NO desire to open it and fawn over it with H. Funny, roles reversed today...that is how he felt months ago..I would give something and he hated to open it.
Well...was gonna clean the house for H's professional house guest tomorrow (visiting Dr). But, not feelign like it now.
Need a hug? Mega Hug??? Other than snooping to start with (but who hasn't?), you've done mahhhvvelouss! He's back pedaling, feeling guilty, making up for what he's done, nervous, afraid of what you will do. And you are Ms Cool. That's fine, and even though you are dealing with so many feelings and emotions right now, stay cool. But do not get cold hearted. There is a difference.
Do you do any IM stuff?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
After your raving compliments, I hate to disappoint, but I must.
Had a tough time turning the heart on last night and this morning. H came home LATE again. I went to bed, didn't clean the house for his guest tonight...I figure, if you're at work talking to "friends" then I'm not your maid...keep in mind he never asked me to do this. I still will tonight..no reason a guest should pay for our differences now.
H came home and was super friendly, playful, sweet. I played tired to counter that I just couldn't be as enthusiastically playful with him. He was affectionate and I returned it. This morning, he was chipper and bummed that I might not join him to work out (looked a little worried). I joined and had a great time with friends when I got there. We had a quiet breakfast, I read, did not talk like I usually do. He was dismayed that I hadn't opened the gift he bought...I just could not bring myself to open it...put it asied to open later. He opened it for me...and said, in a sad and snippy tone "Just act excited about it..." I said it was hard for me to accept such an expensive gift (really, it's hard for me to take your guilt gifts after you routinely give $$ out to your "friends"--I was being pissy..kinda like, I don't need your gifts, and he was a little hurt). I was thankful, not in a fake way. I went about my business and he joined in the shower. I made myeslf be more playful, etc. I tried really hard to remember that his emails indicated that he was trying to cut off anything inappropriate and be friends with this woman...an indication that he's TRYING US. Also, he's been reaching out a LOT, been really great. Also an indication of TRYING.
Then, after showers I tickled him and he was irritated...not the best time. He got pissy. That set me OFF. B/c of the tickle-fests he and this Fcoworker had. I had a tone, and said "oh, so you don't want me to tickle or touch you...OK" and walked out of the room. He said that he was upset b/c I was making him sound like he hated being touched but I was being annoying. I said sorry for coming off like that, I didn't mean it. I said we were both projecting off of other things. Then I got frustrated and vulnerable (UGH) and started asking if he was mad (repeatedly), if he thought that this was the old me coming through again, how I hated that little things turned into a fight. He said it wasn't a fight...then he BOLTED out the door to work...I asked he come back and again, like an idiot, asked if he was mad, said sorry..etc. He said "here we go...you'll keep me for 5 more minites with your questions, etc" I said no, and let him go. He had that panicked look of "here she goes again..."
SO...I feel like I backpedaled. I was so emotional and feel like I've been keeping so much down. I didn't realize, but I was hurt from yesterday, and it seeped through this morning. It was a silly fight, but I have to admit that I'm scared that H will use this to say "see, things are the same, we don't make each other happy, so there..." instead of realizing this is INCREDIBLY stressful, lots unsaid, lots of hurt feelings (including his this morning, nice that he spoke up), and that things won't be perfect.
Well....it wasn't too bad. I mostly said sorry, sincerely. I let him go. Tonight, I won't talk about it again. He has his friend over tonight, and that will distract us. I will go back to being my normal self of the last 3 weeks. Bounce back is all I can do.
The opportunity: detach and loving. Have to bring back the loving part. Realize that he's making LOTS of effort lately and is STILL testing. He knows you know something and were a little upset. This is a GREAT opportunity to let him know, as a test, that you can know something, not push it in his face and still be loving and not be angry. I had my moments of aloofness last night and this morning, but hey, I'm human. It's also a test that we can have a little tiff when things are tense, and I can still bounce back, not drag it out or making it into something it isn't. I can let it go. In a way, I hate that these things happen, but it's all an opportunity to prove 180s and detachment and the person I want to be.
I realize now that our little tiff was us both being vulnerable and testing. I was trying to let myself feel for him again, and tested with the tickling..I admit that. WHen he didn't like it, I ASSumed that he didn't want to be touched by me, like by coworker...he was angry at that. At the same time, he tested me to see that I was angry and how I would react...ASSuming that if I was angry, then I had not really changed and would harbor resentment.
WCW--IMing...I work for the Fed Govt...we're blocked from that...but I do have an email if you like or phone.
