Ok, this may be the longest post in board history, but here goes the Ireland story. This first part is as much for my personal journal as to share details with you all, so bear with me. I will post another post to ONLY talk about the trip from the relationship perspective. Skip to that if you don't want all the boring details of my trip.
Day 1 - Thursday/Friday - Florida to Dublin
It was REALLY hard to leave the boys. This was the first time we have ever left them for this long but in the end, it was ok because the prospect of all the fun to be had made us feel better.
As for the flight to Dublin, we flew Continental and I hate to say it, but I would NOT recommend them for international travel. Having flown British Airways and Virgin before, this experience was pretty bad and mostly just because the planes were tiny.
So, we flew out of Ft. Lauderdale. It was at our first airport that the first adventure happened because our connecting city of Newark NJ was having some terrible weather and everything was delayed. It meant that we had to take an earlier flight, one that was almost done boarding when we got to the ticket counter. We literally had to run through the airport to make the plane. We were the last ones on. My SIL, who was supposed to be on the same flight but she ended up on a different one. We hardly saw her for the rest of the trip after that. Oh well Other than having trouble sleeping, the flight over was fine.
When we landed, it was about 8:00am Dublin time. We got a cab after standing in the longest taxi queue EVER and made our way through the massive amount of construction on the outskirts of Dublin. Finally we made it to our first hotel/B&B. It was in a PERFECT location, right in the middle of all the shopping/pubs. If you ever go to Dublin, the place is called the Grafton Guest House. The service is a little spotty, but the room was VERY cool with two skylights and a great bed.
We spent the first day shopping in the BITTER cold. We thought we were ready for that, but we were not.
We walked a lot and just explored the part of the city we were in. Not much else. We did have our first pub lunch that was VERY good.
In the late afternoon we went back to the hotel to take a nap and then went to dinner and drinks in the Temple Bar area of Dublin (kinda like SOHO I guess, but never been to NY so...). We had a sandwich at a restaurant and stuck around for a guy to play 2 songs and then leave the bar for some reason...We ended up at a traditional Irish pub for some traditional Irish music. We didn't stay long because the experience compounded a feeling my W and I both had about Dublin/Ireland. It is the whitest place we have ever been. My W, who is darkish and Indian was ALWAYS the darkest person we ever say, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, the people never treated us anything but decent, but it was a little disconcerting when neither of us have ever been in that situation before. For the most part it never bothered us, and when it did, it was in our own heads.
Sleep came soon after.
Day 2 - Saturday - Dublin
This was our day to do a little sight seeing and more shopping. My W always feels the need to buy something for everyone we know whenever we go anywhere so there was a lot to do, not to mention all the stuff we wanted to shop for ourselves. We went to the major shopping areas of Grafton St. and Henry St in addition Temple Bar again to look for a fashion market that ended up SUCKING. We also wandered into the Irish National Photographic Gallery and saw some great photography. That was really cool and inspiring.
Funny, I managed to keep my cameras put away for the entire first day we were there. This was deliberate because I tend to only be in "photo" mode when I am shooting and I wanted to make sure I was experiencing things with my W fully on day one. Day two, they came out (she asked me to) and I took a few shots of Dublin. I didn't do as much as I thought I would, but it was fun.
We shopped, sight see'd and met her sister for a pint at a pub (the only time we saw her in Ireland) and went back to the room to freshen. It was snowing when we went back out again! Very cool for this Florida boy!
That night we went in search of live music again (not traditional Irish) and found a great bar with a local band that was REALLY good. We stayed for a few drinks and then went in search of more to do. We ended up walking too far and my W was getting annoyed. I said I knew a place to go from a magazine. I guess I didn't know as much as I thought but I did NOT get upset or frustrated. I just insisted we get a cab and she agreed. The cabbie was REALLY nice and took us the rest of the way (we were going the right way lol) for free. The club we went to was PACKED. My W had a couple glasses of wine and then the dance floor upstairs opened up. She asked me if I wanted to go up and I said SURE!. We ended up dancing for a couple hours. Now you have to understand that I DON'T DANCE! I never have, and it's a problem for my W because she loves to dance. Well, needless to say, she REALLY liked the fact I danced with her. She was a little tipsy by then of the night (ok, I had to carry her to a cab) but we had a GREAT time. For the first time in a LONG time, she touched me in a way that was NOT just friendly. She was putting her arms around me and initiating a lot of contact. It stopped short of anything more than dancing, but for me it was like $ex. When we got back to the room, I actually thought there might be something more to come. I helped her undress (she needed help and didn't protest at all) gave her a back rub and proceeded to have her pass out asleep. Oh well. Maybe another night. Oh, and my $100 jacket got stolen at the club so I had to go the rest of the night with only a thin shirt in the freezing weather. It was worth it though.
Day 3 - Sunday - Dublin to Waterford
This was car rental day and we spent the first part of the day doing a little walking but mainly we just packed up and made our way in a taxi to the Avis rental place. Our car was a nice Renault and it didn't take me any time at all to get the hang of driving on the "wrong" side of the road.
This entire day was spent on the TINY winding roads of Ireland on our way to Waterford to spend the night before continuing on to Killarny and the Ring of Kerry.
The drive was REALLY scenic and fun except for the hundreds of close calls with the side of the road and other cars. I really tried to drive so that my W was not scared the whole time, but she ended up really stressed. I felt bad, but there wasn't much I could do.
Waterford SUCKED. Sorry, other than the Crystal factory we went to on the way out the next day, this town was terrible. Our hotel, the Bridge Hotel was HORRIBLE. The bartender at the pub we ate in said it was the worst in town and we believe him.
This was the night of the big R talk which I will get into in Part 2. We finished the night off casually in a bar and drove back to the hotel.
Day 4 - Monday - Waterford to Killarny
At the Waterford Crystal factory we got another taste of Irish hospitality (they really are nice people) when the engraver who'd worked there 40 years doing engravings for tourists, told us to change our plans of driving to Killarny and then trying to do the Ring of Kerry scenic drive all in one day. He told us to drive, stay the night and then do the drive. He was right.
We drove about 3 hours, stopped off in a little town to have lunch with the locals, who made it a point to be friendly with us,and then off to Killarny and arrived around 4:00pm. We spent the rest of the day exploring the shops and found a hotel to stay in. This town and the hotel (Best Western International Hotel) were GREAT, a total contrast to Waterford.
We ended up eating another pub dinner and on the recommendation of the staff at the hotel, ended up at a pub for some drinks and music. It started as some good Irish traditional and ended with a late night jam with a cover band that was actually really good. We danced and sang until we ended up in the dance club behind the pub for a little more dirty dancing. It was good. Very good night.
Day 5 - Tuesday - Ring of Kerry
Well, other than the bit of snow on Saturday, the weather up to this point was BEAUTIFUL! Of course, now that we were to the scenic, photographic part of the trip the weather went to crap, and I mean CRAP. It was miserable, cold and rainy the rest of our time in Ireland. Despite this we ended up taking the bus tour (I was going to drive, but not in that weather) of the ~170 mile Ring of Kerry. The drive takes you into the mountains and along spectacular coastline (or so they tell me, we couldn't see much). It was a LONG trip (10:30-5:30). It was ok, but not near what it could have been. This was the time the blow up happened over the ring and also the comment about me keeping tabs on the W. Again, more on that later.
The day finished up with more shopping, and some Indian food, the best we've ever had, and that's saying a lot considering my W's family cooks it, and we eat it all the time out. We went to a traditional pub again and heard the best music of the trip. Again, it ended well.
Day 6 - Wednesday - Killarny to Dublin
We were planning to drive back after the tour on Tuesday but the thought of driving at night on those roads made us cringe so we stayed the night in Killarny and drove in the morning. It took the entire day to go across the country to Dublin (Killarny is in the extreme south west, Dublin is on the east coast). We got into Dublin around 4:00 and only had 2 hours to return some things and finish up shopping before we left at 9:00am the next day.
Like I said, we did not get along well near the end of this day. Between the traffic and confusion of driving in Dublin and getting mixed up on what hotel we booked with, it was not a pleasant evening. Oh, and did I mention that our car got towed? We made the LONG walk back from shopping to find our rental gone. We ended up finding a cop and asking what to do. We already figured out that it was probably towed, not stolen and he confirmed it. We parked in a place that was illegal after 4:00. $100 and about a 3 mile walk later we had our car back. Trust me, that didn't help.
Again, it ended fine, but we were tired and just packed to leave at 6:15am for the airport.
Day 7 - Thursday - Return
Well, other than the luggage carrosel getting stuck in NJ, our return trip was ok. It was VERY emotional for me, and again, more on that later.
We were greeted by my FIL and the kids at the airport and it was GREAT to see them again.
Overall, the trip was GREAT! We got to relax, shop, eat, sight see and just be free for a week. It was wonderful and definitely went better than I expected.
Again, sorry for the long post. I will post the relationship/feelings part next.
I'm still lurking about, although I really haven't had much to report lately. Things are going fairly well (note: NOT perfect mind you) and a little less drama these days. Don't get me wrong, we still have our moments, but for the most part, I have seen positive things. I'm not gonna hijack your post GH so I'll post updates on my thread!
Other than that, it sounds like you really had a great trip and did extremely well at keeping your emotions in check. I do absolutely believe that you are on the right track, and with a bit more patience, things will be just fine! Welcome back my friend, we did indeed miss you.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Ok, here is my trip from the heart's perspective. I will do the day by day again...
Pre-trip
I have to admit that I thought she was bringing the bear and the necklace. The bear went missing and I DID look for him in her luggage. Nothing. As for the necklace, I thought I saw her put it in one of her makeup bags, and again AGAINST my usual nature I snooped and either I was wrong or she did a GREAT job of hiding it. I was wrong on both accounts and feel bad that I was going to let it bother me. I feel bad about the snooping, but it was short lived and it was ok. I wonder how I would have done if I had found something...
Day 1
Well, I admitted to maybe expecting more than I let on before I left. I pretty much was able to let go of that before we left and just settled in to have fun. Day one really didn't hold much other than that. We arrived tired and really ready to experience Dublin. We got along fine and made small talk on the plane and while we shopped. I think I already started to see that this trip was going to be ok. We were just two kids (ok, really old-ish ones) in a candy shop with all the shopping and stuff to see. Lots of smiling and fun. Lunch and dinner went fine and I got to display my improved eating style (using the "proper" way of holding the utensils, etc). My W commented on that and said she was impressed. It has never really been an issue, and I am not a slob when I eat, just VERY American and not very refined, at least from a European perspective. It was all good. I scored points be nabbing a table close to the stage where The traditional music we saw later was a little taxing (not the music, but the crowd and place itself) and my W ended up a little stressed but we laughed it off and walked back to the hotel. As we went to bed, I had NO expectations and really we were so tired, it wouldn't have mattered anyway.
Day 2
Breakfast at the hotel was GREAT and we embarked on day 2. This was the coldest weather I have ever been it. It was good though because it made for a good excuse to get close as we walked. The day was more of the same. Just fun and good company. We really got along great. No fights, no problems making decisions together (BIG problem in the past). The night was even better. I scored when I got us a table close to the "band" (guy with a guitar). I got my W a drink and sat down to hear...well...2 songs from the "band". He then packed up and left. So did we. My W was not in the mood to wander around like we did the night before and so we went to a bar I saw in a magazine. It said there was live music and there was. The local band was just coming on and they were really good. We stood at the bar and just enjoyed the music. From there we walked, then took a taxi. That scored big with the W because she was tired of walking but kept insisting on not getting a cab. I just grabbed her hand and we went to a cab parked nearby. I think she appreciated me hearing her true wish to not walk anymore and making a decision to do that. The bar/club we went to was VERY crowed and we did some good people watching as we waited for the upstairs dance club to open. When we got dancing, I just let go for the first time in my life. It was a blast. I wasn't very good, but I didn't care, and neither did my W. She had a big smile on her face all night. We were more physical than we've been outside a bedroom in years, maybe EVER. It was really nice. We almost kissed on a couple occasions but for whatever reason didn't. I didn't mind because it was hot without that! My W can REALLY dance! Since my W had been pub crawling, i.e. drinking all night (remember, I don't drink), she was a little gone on the way back to the hotel. I won't lie. I really thought things were going to get intimate. I started to realize that they weren't when I saw how far gone she was. I probably could have taken advantage of that, but did not. It's not my style. I helped her up the 4 flights of stairs and into bed. I undressed her, and yea, I did some sight seeing but only got as far as a back rub before she was asleep. I was disappointed but didn't dwell on it.
Day 3
In the morning I made a couple little jokes about "what do you remember", insinuating that we did something. She laughed and told me she remembered everything, including that nothing happened. It was light hearted. The rest of that day was spent getting the car and driving southwest. The car/driving could have been an issue, but I really made sure that I was conscious of her feelings and tried to drive so she was not on edge the whole time. I succeeded in letting her know I was trying but the roads and other drivers made it impossible to relax for either of us. That said, it was a fun trip with more light talk and just us getting along better than ever. I really enjoyed the time. When we got to Waterford we knew we didn't really like it, but it was our stop over so we picked a hotel (oops) and went to eat. Near the end of dinner...R talk. I will try to remember the important details, the most important of which is how it started and I can't for the life of me remember. I know she initiated it but I can't think how. This is how it went from my response to whatever she said...
M: Well, I just have one question. Is IT possible on this trip? I just want to know because it seems like things are going really well.
W: No. It won't happen. Things ARE going well. Isn't that enough? You expect to go from 0-60 in less than a week?
M: No, I don't expect that. It's why I asked. I was starting to feel like things may be heading that direction but didn't want to assume.
W: Ok, but it's not realistic. Why can't it be enough that we are having fun?
M: It can, and will be. It's just that supposedly this whole thing is about "us" and not about some other guy yet WE are here and still things are not possible.
W: Yes, WE are here. What do you think? You think I would come on this trip if I didn't want to be here with you?
M: I don't know. I guess not, but honestly the thought crossed my mind that it's the only way you'd be able to travel right now...
W: That's crap and you know it. Is is easier this way? Sure, but I considered just telling my parents you were busy and coming with my sister alone. I didn't do that. You know this trip COULD have made things a lot worse, not better. I thought about that.
M: And I appreciate that. I am glad to be here with you. I just get caught up sometimes thinking about what's going on. You have this other guy who's obviously in love with you waiting for you at home...
W: (this is a big thing for her to admit) Ok, but I can't control what he feels. That's not my fault.
M: So how does he feel about you being here? Isn't he upset.
W: Yes, of course, but what can he do?
M: I don't know. Doesn't he try to pressure you?
W: No. This whole time with him it's been me bringing things up. I have been the one talking to him about my marriage and not the other way around.
M: So he hasn't asked you to get a divorce? Did you tell him you were leaving me?
W: No, he never brings it up, and no I never said that.
M: Ok, so he's just content to wait for you?
W: Who knows. You know you make him out to be something. You know it IS possible for there to be other nice guys out there other than you.
M: Ok, but you ARE exclusive with each other, right?
W: No, or I don't know. I don't ask. I am not with him much at all so I have no idea what he does when he's not with me.
M: So what happens now. Do you eventually move out...
W: NO. I am never doing that. If you want to leave, fine, but the boys belong in their home. You ALWAYS use the kids to get to me.
M: I don't always use them, but you surely have thought about that part of all this. Also, I am not leaving either but this thing is wearing on me.
W: You can't ever just let things be can you? You always have to dwell on things. I told you I am trying. It's not enough and now you are going to be in your mood for the night and maybe longer.
M: Well, you're wrong. Haven't you noticed that change in me. I DO think about us a lot, but I am not going to let that affect me on this trip, starting now. This talk is over.
W: Fine. (gets up to go have a smoke).
There was a LOT more, but that was the gist. If I remember more I will post it. It seems like there was something of importance I am forgetting but...
The night ended at a bar for a few drinks and amazingly enough, light conversation before bed in the crappy hotel.
Day 4
This was a travel day. Really, not much happened. More of the same. We made a complete recovery from the R talk and had a very nice day stopping in little towns and shopping in Killarny. Just relaxing vacation time at it's finest! Dinner and the bar/club afterwards was really fun. We stood and danced with the band and then did a little more in the club. We had a really fun time and I was feeling a lot better actually because I truly had NO expectations after our R talk. I knew where I stood and read between the lines that it was important in my W's eyes to make sure we could have fun together without getting deep into the romantic thing. On that level, it was a total success.
Day 5
This was just a day to sight see. Other than the horrible weather and the bit of stress it caused me (I wanted SO much to take beautiful pictures) it was fine...right up until it wasn't. First off, on the few occasions I had to use my W's phone, it was impossible not to notice the calls to him she'd made. I managed NOT to dwell on that and just ignore the stimuli. I did great with that but I was interested to see if she was going to buy him something. Contrary to her later accusation I WAS NOT looking for it. Most of the time I was too caught up shopping for me or taking pictures to care what she did but when we got into this little town on the bus, I snapped. I went off to take some shots of a waterfall down the road a bit and she went shopping in the little stores. When I got back about 15 minutes later I found her in the back of this little shop. She didn't see me come in and was in the process of sizing men's rings with the shop keeper. When I walked up the keeper asked her if she wanted the ring. My W nervously said "No, I'll keep looking". I said "We will need to talk about this" and I stomped out. Very bad behavior. Not direct and not very mature. I walked back in a few minutes later and she said "I'm sick of this f-ing $hit from you." "Oh, ok so the ring wasn't for him?" I said. She just mumbled something and said "I'm not going to talk about this right now with you." I said fine and left for another walk. I cooled off, went to find her and said "Please forgive me for that. It was not how I should have acted. I was upset and would like to just get past it for now. Can I get a pass" She said it was ok and we just proceeded to shop for a few more minutes. The rest of the tour was fine but she was a little distant. When we got back she said she wanted to look around for a bit. I was going to move the car to a new parking spot and said I would meet her in a few minutes. She said "Could I have a few minutes to myself? It seems like you've been on e this whole trip. We have spent 24/7 together and I would just like some alone time. It seems like you've been keeping tabs on me because you don't trust me. I guess that's fine, I understand..." I said "Ok, fine but that's not true. I only saw you buying a ring that was obviously not for me and reacted. I WAS NOT looking for you to do that and actually you never did say I was wrong. Was I?" She got angry and said something to the effect that I still wouldn't drop it and I just turned and went off sight seeing. Once again, when we got back together things were ok. I suppose she had her time to "shop" and that made her happy. The thing that sucks is that I KNOW she likes to shop alone and if this thing wasn't going on I would be trying like hell to act on what I know about her and failed to act on before. Now that I was paranoid about the ring, I failed to do what I should have done all along...GAL, even in Ireland. The rest of the night was good. We had GREAT Indian food and enjoyed an evening of music before going to bed early-ish.
Day 6
We woke up and got on the road early. The trip was fine until Dublin where the traffic was terrible and I started to get frazzled. My W did too and we started to bicker over which way to go, where to park, etc. It escalated a bit to some yelling, but quickly cooled off when I just decided to park and walk. I (stress, I) decided that we should split up for the couple hours we had left because I wanted to shop for me and I knew she did too. We did that and when we were finished, the car was gone...oops...illegal to park there after 4:00. We must have missed the tow truck by about 5 minutes...$100 and a long walk later... We ate a stressful dinner at the hotel and just co-existed while we packed for the morning's trip home. When bed time came, I rubbed her back and we went to sleep. Not the best day, but not the end of the world.
Day 7
Really, the trip home was uneventful. Personally, I got emotional but never let it show. This was the best time I ever had with my W and now it was time to go home. I think my emotions started when she said "It will be good to get back home to the usual routine." Of course to me that means a cheating W and marriage in shambles but... I just got sad thinking about reality, but soon my thoughts turned to the kids and I got happy.
All in all, this was a VERY good trip and I think it will reflect positively on my M. I don't know how my W feels but I suspect she is somewhat relieved that it went as well as it did and we got along so well. I don't think she expected it to be that fun, especially with my track record of moodiness and controlling nature. The fact that I was able to let go and have a blast, even though there were times when I could have slid into a BIG funk, probably did well to impress her and maybe change her mind a bit. I think I did ok but missed out on some opportunity to DB better and even though I know it's wrong to think this way, I did not ask all the questions I wanted to during the R talk. I know that's probably not important and just as well I didn't but curious minds want to know. Like I said, GREAT trip, and the future holds...well, who know. Only time will tell.
All in all, GH, a very good post. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you honestly do provide inspiration to the rest of us. They way you handled some very adverse situations completely amazes me and I only wish I had a tenth of your tenacity. This is precisely why I have complete faith in your sitch. coming out the other side, I think you and your W will have a very good R....but only in time.
Interesting R talk and funny how that conversations mirrors so many of the ones I've had in the past few months.
Your post has really put some things into perspective for me and I have to say has had a positive effect on my mood today. Welcome back....in fact, thank goodness you're back!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I don't know about everyone (and yes, I strayed and posted some on other forums ), but I'm actually studying for my professional exam AKA the Judgment Day, and it's a big thing, no kidding.
So you see, it's all your fault - now instead of studying I'm reading about your trip! How very inconsiderate of you
To get through the darkest period of the night, act as if it is already morning.
The Talmud
You did good young Grasshopper! We are all very proud of you! You did things that pleased YOU! That is all you can do right now! Do things for youself. You and I are so similar. We both judge are actions in many ways how they will impact our W and our R. From my perspetive looking back at my own sitch as soon as I started acting the way I wanted, and did things for my W and for myself because I wanted to things began to change. I stopped worrying about the impact on the R and things started to change as you know! All in all you did awesome, and your W better wake up and smell the roses that she may lose the best thing in her life because YOU choose to do so!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
(Not sure why you apologized for being put out when she went for OM and then took her guilt out on you in the form of anger. But, you knew I'd say that.)
With respect to sex, it is never going to go anywhere if you take the tentative questioning approach. When the time seems right, make a strong, sexually assertive move --assertive, not coercive... IMPO, asking her about it is going to take you farther from that goal every time.
I was somewhat concerned for you because of her comment about you having to be the one that moves out if it comes to that. This tells you that if it comes to D, she will want to keep the kids and the house. If you would want something else, you need to start keeping evidence for a court case should it be necessary. Your evidence might include your own diary, her cell phone logs, receipts, emails, pics, whatever you have.
Try to think about this without thinking that it is betrayal. It is not. She has still not re-entered a M R with you. You have no idea where things will wind up. You need to protect the interests of yourself and your children.
Her remark clearly suggests that she has given serious thought to what she will do if she chooses D or you do. Not to make you paranoid, but this will actually give her very strong motive for not being honest with you about the nature of her R with OM insofar as it could be used against her in court. Trust me, she is still keeping her options open. You know this. And, she is CHA.
), but I'm actually studying for my professional exam AKA the Judgment Day, and it's a big thing, no kidding.