Thanks for all that. The travel advice is great and I am printing it. As for the other stuff...
Have a wonderful time in Ireland and don't forget that it is your trip also.
I will respond to this one sentence that pretty much sums up much of your advice. I guess I think of my list as being ALL about me because I want to prove to myself that in the face of a potentially unresponsive, maybe not even kind person, I can remain positive, upbeat and have fun. In that light, those things mean this:
1) Have fun - I want to make sure that this is my MAIN focus, NOT winning back my W or trying to be something I don't feel comfortable being. 2)No R talk - It would likely go against rule number 1. 3) Relax - This is very personal because it's something I have a really hard time doing. It will be the key to #! happening. 4) Be positive - I guess this is just an affirmation. I tend to get stressed when making decisions, for me or the both of us. I just want to make sure I approach each part of this trip with good intentions. 5) Roll with everything - Ok, this one is partially about my W, but mainly more of #4 continued. I don't want to get frustrated if I get lost or can't find something I am looking for, etc. I just want to enjoy the adventure. As for my W's stuff, yea, I want to roll with that too if need be but still maintain, as you say, my sense of what I want to do. 6) NO EXPECTATIONS - Again, this goes back to my forming ideals about how things should go, and if they don't, I get upset. This COULD apply to my W, but more importantly, it's about releasing my normal tendency to obsess over everything and squeeze the life out of it. Fun is difficult to come by when you're doing this. 7) Work on communication/validation - Ok, all about the W and R here, but it's a great opportunity to practice, no? 8) Release angry, needy, clingy behavior - Simply put, GAL and make sure I enjoy Ireland to the fullest without making HER responsible for that. Like you said, if I "tag along" it doesn't do a damn thing for me, or her. 9) No obsessing - See #6 10) Ignore negative stimuli - Really more of the "stop obsessing" and being negative here. Can you tell this is my major issue? 11) No sarcasm - Self explanatory.
Leave the R books at home and pack some massage oil instead. You are not so powerful as you think you know. Your entire M does not rest on every little decision you make, though I know it seems to you as though it does right now. It really doesn't. It depends on the kind of person and partner you become in general. No one is perfect and you don't need to be either. So RELAX
Funny, I almost packed that... I know my decisions are not all powerful. I know this is JUST a trip and I am putting a lot on it's shoulders. Part of what I want to do is to drop that down a notch and then forget all the pressure I have been putting on myself.
As for romance, I'd suggest you throw in a few ardent gestures on top of the gentlemanly considerateness. Having a door opened for you is nice, but it doesn't really make the blood race, if you know what I mean. Pin her against a cliff and kiss her deeply, press into her, put your hands on her. Seriously. Tentativeness can be a real passion killer.
Tenativeness is a real passion killer...um...don't I know it. I am the king of tenativeness. That is why I started just showing confidence around her. It is my way of showing her another side of me that she hasn't seen much...ever. I don't know about the pinning and cliffs and such, but I am working towards that kind of thing. I really think it's been missing for, well, ever in our M.
Again, thanks for all the advice, and BTW, we used to watch Lonely Planet all the time, does that count?
Well, in fact I think most of the women on this board are already envious towards your W (such as what did she do to deserve this loyalty)
Is that true? Sometimes I have trouble viewing it as loyalty and not seeing it through the filter of many in the world that would view it as weak codependence. I even asked my C in our last session if she thought it was possible that my W views what I am doing as strong, caring and respectful instead of weak and self deprecating. I asked this in the context of my W saying from day 1 that she needed space, understanding and time, something no man has ever given her. I am giving her those things to the best of my ability. My C said she didn't know, but that's what SHE thought of me for what I am doing. I am a strong, caring man who is trying his best to be loyal and kind in the face of unbelievable pressure to be otherwise. What I liked is that she didn't say I was wrong for caring what my W thought (see SS, I do agree with you). When trying to save a marriage, sometimes you need to take it's pulse if you know what I mean.
I know it is NOT weakness. It would have been weak of me to lash out 2 months ago (or a hundred other times since then) and either force her out, or leave myself. Sadly, sometimes, this that I am doing does not feel noble either. I have to keep reminding myself (thanks OT) that I MADE THIS choice and I am not a victim. I own this situation, and it is up to me to decide what I want from it. I think it's natural to feel this way but thinking it's natural doesn't make it any easier.
So, it really means a lot to hear that you think I am being what I want to be. I KNOW what I am trying to do and be, and don't NEED you to tell me, but it sure does feel good.
Excellent, glad to hear you are all about you in a good way :-)
OK, if you don't pack the massage oil, go out and get the Lonely Guidebook to Ireland!!!! It has by far the coolest stuff and best info for nonstandard (Ireland beyond the Blarney Stone) travellers.
BTW, the Ring of Kerry bus tour is pretty good (the smaller the bus the better). I mention this only because it is a highlight for many people and I don't think a driver could enjoy the drive because it would be so terrifying (lol) for the driver and passengers. Some of the cliff roads are NARROW beyond belief!
FYI, in the morning at breakfast you'll likely be offered lots of meat. Black pudding=blood sausage. Oh, and scrambled eggs will be what they call "creamy" which means "runny and not cooked." Eek!
Oh, also, I think maybe you mentioned you had roots over there? If so, if you know the town and visit it, you might find out alot just by asking around at the pub. They'll know who knows what about which families, etc., and can direct you to the right folks. So, good luck with that if it is something you enjoy.
Well, this is it. I am going internet "dark" for awhile. We fly out in the afternoon tomorrow but I will be at my in-laws and have no internet access. I am grateful for all the advice and well-wishing. It really means a lot. I am looking forward to this trip like nothing else I have ever done for so many reasons, but mainly becuase it's the first time I've really ever been anywhere on my own...lol. So, I'm off and will post when I can. If I get access there, maybe I will take an minute and say hi, if not, see you all next Thursday or Friday!
Well, I hope you're having amazing time in Ireland, but I guess your fanclub here misses you already
Is that true? Sometimes I have trouble viewing it as loyalty and not seeing it through the filter of many in the world that would view it as weak codependence.
Well, let me put it this way. That book about Mars and Venus you recommended, I found it accidentally on my friends' bookshelf right after that I opened it you know, and somewhere in the first chapter the author mentioned that his wife had called him "fair weather friend" meaning someone who is a friend when things are going fine, but when the weather changes, so long.
See, you are certainly not a fair weather friend, nor are you a fair weather husband for that matter. For when the road gets rough you don't jump off the vehicle complaining of discomfort and how the ride stopped being comfortable for you, therefore have a nive life, see ya later. As long as we could observe, you demonstrated incredible perseverance even though it wasn't exactly in your character before.
Of course if you ask WAS they will probably tell you that what you demonstrated speaks more of dependance, neediness, fear of being alone, and being a doormat/ They might come up with many other explanations; but I think we now know better than to listen to WAS theories of personality.
What your behavior comes down to is this: you were hurt, you felt and had every right to feel betrayed, you found yourself in a very uncomfortable situation being unprepared as I can guess. What happened after that, is you refused to let the situation dictate what's gonna happen next, you found inner strenght, you found recources, you started working on yourself and I dare say that in the process you came up with lots of very thoughtful and useful advice that you shared with cohabitants of this board. Not to mention that you didn't just say WTF HOW DARES SHE and left complaining of untrustworthiness of women and unfairness of the destiny.
You found strength and resources in yourself to become a better man. To me it sounds as a dream H Someone who would do whatever it takes in the face of adversity, even if he is all alone in this and has to struggle for his R without any help from another S. Think about it.
To get through the darkest period of the night, act as if it is already morning.
The Talmud
Well, it was a LONG 7 days and we had a GREAT time. First things frist, I want to grade myself on my goals and then later on I will give you the scoop on the trip.
1) Have fun
A+
Well, we had a GREAT time. There was almost NO tension and it was just a good trip. Too much rain and too much time in Dublin, but good over all. More on the specifics later.
2) No R talk
C
We only had 1 R talk and really she brought it up. The good news is that she said near the end that one of her biggest complaints about me was that I could never let things "just be" for any length of time without dwelling on them and that "I was going to be in a mood for the rest of the night after the conversation." I said she was wrong, that it was over, and then proceeded to be a perfect, fun loving gentleman for the rest of the evening. She noticed.
Also, the lowest moment was when I walked into a little shop after taking some pictures to find her getting men's ring's sized (I had already bought my ring earlier in the day that she knew I wanted). I exploded. BAD BAD BAD. I accused her of buying it for "him" and she got pissed and said how she was sick of this f-ing sh!t from me. Funny how it only lasted a minute. I appologized a moment later (after a short walk to cool off) and she let it drop. I don't think she really did, but it never came up again.
3) Relax
B+
I was more relaxed than ever for most of the trip. The last couple days was a little taxing because I had to drive in Dublin and it was nerve racking. We fought a bit over getting lost, etc. It was not a good moment, but it happened 6 days into the trip and was over pretty quickly. The rest of the time we were having a great time, just doing what we wanted, when we wanted. I even danced for the FIRST time with my W and we had a BLAST. I even think I was good!
4) Be positive
B
Most of the time I was just focused on having fun. The idea of being positive or negative really didn't enter my mind, just having a good time. Strange for me. I really didn't THINK too much about this stuff.
5) Roll with EVERYTHING
A
The few things that happened were isolated and I DID NOT let them contaminate my attitude. Fun and relaxing were the only things I wanted to let prevail.
6) NO EXPECTATIONS
C
Well, I admit that the reason for the R talk we had was that I was starting to get the romatic urges and it showed to my W. I guess my part of the conversation centered around getting her to just tell me if it was possible on the trip and she said "no". I suppose I was a little beyone hoping when the rest of the trip was going so well. She shut me down, but I think it was a good thing because I was easily able to move on and just be "friendly" for the rest of the trip (about 4 days). I was still nice and made some gestures but after that talk, COMPLETELY without expectations.
7) Work on communication/validation
A
Lots of this. I slipped up some, but for the most part, I was a validating fool. Of course, I didn't have much to do, but when it was called for, I did it.
8) Release angry, needy and clingy behavior
B-
Overall, good, but on day 5 she made the comment that I was under foot all the time and she felt like I was keeping tabs on her. I assured her I just enjoyed her company and proceed to go off on my own (something that I really did do some on the trip but...). This was later in the same day when I exploded and maybe (forgive my supposition) foiled her buying something for OM. She just wanted to explore the shops of the town were in for a few minutes...um... Anyway, I went off to do some more photo stuff, she went off to do... Also, for the record, I used her phone quite a bit (she had it activated for international calling) and when I had to redial a hotel I was booking with, I saw her calls to him in the list...grrrrrr. No reason to put that in here but...
9) No obsessing
A+
See the end of #8. I did NOT let this affect me. We were there to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience and I'll be DAMNED if I let that bother me. I did not obesess at all this trip.
10) Ignore negative stimuli
C
Well, if not for the blow up it would have been an A+. I did well to ignore the phone calls and her being somewhat cold some of the time. Pretty good for me.
11) NO SARCASM!!!
A
Don't remember any. Probably was some but not much if any at all.
So, overall, it was good. That said, the sitch is still the same, and reading Tim's thread, I am reminded that it will probably have to be me that makes the decision in my sitch. My W seems committed to the status quo for the forseeable future and I don't think I am going to be ok with that. I was going to evaluate my sitch and decide that I was going to do now. Well, I am going to give it a week to see how things are and then maybe I will have to take a new path. I will give you the details of the trip later or tomorrow.
It's nice to be home (well sorta) and I will catch up with you all tonight and tomorrow.
I'm glad that everything went well (not that I doubted though), and I think it's very important that you give yourself an objective grade (although I kind of suspect that you're being too hard on yourself). If you just gave yourself an A without admitting shortcomings it wouldn't be a real A you know. Therefore you're closer to a good grade than you think. Most importantly, but you know it already, it to work on yourself for yourself.
In that department I'm doing well and it helps, so we might exchange a few tips
I can't post much now, even though I'm still going to post the resilts of my trip to SF, but I have the Lisencure exam next week. But I'll keep reading
To get through the darkest period of the night, act as if it is already morning.
The Talmud
Sorry all. I guess I have the disease too. I just have a TON of stuff to catch up on, not to mention having a 9 hour wedding to shoot last night. I will post trip details tomorrow, promise. Meanwhile, where is everyone? Did a lot of people just move to other boards?
