Sorry to hear the W is being distant, perhaps she has a lot on her mind with regard to this trip as well....heck, my W get's stressed when we're doing an overnighter at her sisters, I can't imagine what it would be like when planning an international trip, lol
In any event, it sounds like you've figured this out on your own. roll with the punches and see where it takes you, I'm pretty confident that you'll be just fine.
I've got to tell you, i've read more self-help books in the past month and a half than I've ever read in all my life. Lots of good information, but my problem is implementation of those ideals....its so much to digest and truthfully, in my everyday life, I don't think I was that far off the mark. Although Mars/Venus did open my eyes to a large extent in understanding why my W would act/react the way she did. I used to believe that her "nagging" indicated a rejection of me, come to find out, she was expressing in ways that she only knew how. Either way, I'll be better prepared for the future!
Hopefully your day is going well!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Well, still not much to report...sorta. W and I have been working well together to do all the little last minute things. It's been nice. She's back to being somewhat warm again.
On another, somewhat graphic note...if you are timid, don't read on...
I noticed, um, uh, well, some, uh, shall we say remnants of grooming in the potty area. Never really seen that before. I had a slight grin and wend downstairs to ask my W what it was (I had a good idea). "Honey, whats up with the hairs?" She smiled and said "Whatever. Hey, it's about time. It's been what, 4 months. I figured it was time to get "stuff" under control." She went on, but I will spare you more details. I ONLY shared that VERY personal stuff because it seemed interesting to be for 2 reasons. First, she was once again trying to say that it had been over 4 months since SHE'D had $ex (which is of course how long it's been for US) AND, well, if she's doing yard work...you get my picture. Anyway, I will take this line of thought no further, but it is interesting to ponder. Sorry to all the women for all that. Trust me, I WAS NOT as juvinile nor uncomfortable when I talked to her. It was really kinda playful. In the past I would have been MUCH more juvinile with her. Ah, ain't growth grand...
I have followed your thread pretty closely and really admire how far you've come.
I think the latest developments - your wife telling you 'its time to get stuff under control' is a really positive development. As a woman, I can tell you, that this comment definitely means a lot. I am glad that you responded lightly. I feel that all the flirting you've been doing has been showing results. Often this is what women find lacking in the marriage and often why women look outside. Sorry if I am rambling.
I actually just wanted to comment on your hourglass analogy without hijacking PArob's thread. Your analogy really hit home. It is such a creative way of putting it. The process of 'going through to the other side' (in other words 'change') appears painful; yet I feel that it is perhaps our resistance to the change (or to continue your analogy, noticing that the opening is too narrow, not being used to the walls, or not being able to see the other side clearly) that is the real source of pain. I think as individuals, if we are able to trust the process we provide less resistance and are able to make a much more pain free transition.
I did not mean to ramble on and on; just wanted to express my appreciation for your post. Hope you enjoy your trip to Ireland.
If you notice, I ramble quite often, so it's a trait I respect in others.lol. Also, you are not rambling.
Thank you for your confirmation that what I noticed was positive. I know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but if I am looking to categorize things as positive and negative, it surely falls on the former side.
As for my analogy, thank you for your comments. Talk about rambling! Seriously, I am glad you got something from it and Fire Dragon asked me to expand on the "space between" part. Your comments help me understand that a little more. Please, feel free to post, ramble and anything else you'd like on my thread. I really appreciate it.
This was originally posted on PArob's thread but since there seems to be a bit of discussion about it, I am going to re-post it here...
WARNING: Esoteric BS ahead. Those with a low tolerance for amateur philosophy should stop reading NOW!
This will be the first time I try to express this thought/way of looking at things I have had for a long time.
I think in many situations I see things represented by an hourglass sort of shape on it's side. On one side you have a lot of room to move, and relative freedom. You can see the other side, but the only way to get there is to squeeze through that little opening. When you squeeze through the opening, things get really tight. You feel very little freedom. You feel like turning back. You forget your goal to get to the other side. Once you get to the other side, you are free to expand again, to be free, without fear of just "slipping back" into the other side again. It's almost impossible to involuntarily go back to the other side once you've made it through. However, it's that last push to make it through that is the scariest because we are forced to leave not only the old "side" behind, but also we leave behind the PROCESS of getting to the new "side" as well, and both of them represent comfort of sorts for us. It's also important to think of the two side as only different, not good or bad.
Like I said, that's a recurring thought I have had throughout life when facing certain situations. This is one of them.
We start on the same side of the hourglass when we get married. If we explore, grow and find happiness together, we may stay there, or move to the other side together. In our cases, our W's at some point decided to see what the other side was like. It took a lot of pain, and growth to get there, and once there, it was just different, not necessarily better. For our W's, they have been on that other side of the hourglass from us. They have had freedom. They could see the other side, but didn't want to go there until they saw that there was enough possibility of freedom and happiness there to warrant the pain it would take to get back again. Now they have started the process and they're moving through the tight spot between, where it's easy to get claustrophobic and just slip, or turn back.
In my mind, I imagine a time when they will make it through and it will take a monumental effort (or f-up on our part) to even allow them to consider going back to the other side. The pain of moving between them is too great. Moving through the place between requires contracting yourself, becoming small, alone with your thoughts and your fears. It's not something we would do for fun, and certainly when are unsure of the safety/happiness on the other side.
I see US/LBS as having been living in the space between either during this crisis, or maybe long before. Our inability, or lack of motivation, to push towards either side just kept us in painful limbo that prevente us from seeing the freedom that we were missing. We too are now making it through. We are learning what it is to be in a place where there are horizons and not just the walls around us, that we have built. We are learning to be free, and what being free means in the context of our marriages. We hope our W's learn this too. The real problem we now face is the potential of ending up on the OTHER side from our W's again, i.e. we go through so much pain and just accept EITHER side, even if it's opposite where our W's are. It's when this happens that WE decide the M is over and it's time to move on rather than face any more pain or struggle.
I have had this vision for many things from the task of learning new things to emotional tests like this. Anything that requires a struggle to move from one place of knowing to another. Anytime we do this kind of growing we sense the loss of the freedom that came from our ignorance, the constricting, oppressive new rules/ideas we must obey, and then the release that comes when we finally make it through, our freedom regained in a new place where once again we are able to move and explore using our new knowledge to guide us.
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That was the original post with two minor edits (added LBS after US) and removed the last paragraph that had nothing to do with the rest.
Thanks again GH for posting this for me. I found it to be a really unique perspective and also very helpful.
As for you sitch, I'm really happy to hear that things are looking good. As I said earlier, I see positive things coming out of this trip for you and your W. You have really done such a great job and I believe she is beginning to see that the changes you have made are real. Fantastic!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
1) Have fun 2) No R talk 3) Relax 4) Be positive 5) Roll with EVERYTHING 6) NO EXPECTATIONS 7) Work on communication/validation 8) Release angry, needy and clingy behavior 9) No obsessing 10) Ignore negative stimuli 11) NO SARCASM!!!
Notes:
This is the make or break time for me personally, and maybe my marriage. I want to prove to myself that I have grown and I am not the same codependent man I have been in this marriage. She may not be over him yet, but she could very well be over me if I act like an ass. This is MY time to have fun and enjoy seeing, experiencing and photographing this beautiful country with someone I am trying to build a new foundation of friendship with. I need to release my anger, expectations and up-tightness. I want to be fun, energetic, and adventurous. I do not want to be needy or clingy. If I end up doing things on my own, I want to relish that time to really be me and understand what that means in the context of this wonderful experience I am having. If the opportunity presents itself, or even if not, I want to be romantic, and not in a sexual way, more just by being a gentleman of grace and mystery. I do NOT expect her to reciprocate but will be open to signs that she may give me. I want to show the behavior of a mature, stable man that doesn't NEED her, but does want her. I want to take the emotional risks I have not taken in years by being confidet enough to really TRY to be attractive and not be afraid of rejection. I WILL NOT BE RULED BY EMOTIONS, mine OR hers. The result of this trip will be a wealth of experiences and images that I will cherish for the rest of my life. It will be the defining time when I finally decided to really be the man I want to be.
Great post GH. Have a wonderful time in Ireland and don't forget that it is your trip also. I don't really think you have, but a few posts back you talked about your wife's idea of the trip not being yours, and seemed to accept it as a done deal. While it is great to roll with the punches and be flexible, it is also important to respect your own wishes. Along with that, it is also important to focus on YOURSELF and being happy YOURSELF. Your list is excellent, but most of the items on it seem tilted toward answering the question of "what do I need to do to make W happy, rather than what do I need to do to make ME happy." So, perhaps you may want to add a few slanted toward answering that one. And don't forget to continue to GAL. BTW, as someone who travels alot, I can tell you I much more appreciate working with someone else on trip plans who is excited and enthusiastic and watching out for their own interests rather than someone who is going along to get along. The latter saps the energy right out of me... So, just make sure you make your trip a great one for you!
Ireland is great with respect to public transportation and hitching at least used to be very safe. So, if one day you want to say, go for a hike in the Burren instead of going lace shopping, I'd say go for it :-) Now, if you are looking for the best music places, ask around for where there is some good crack (not sure of the spelling, but it means a good time) and a decent session (where locals wonder in and out and play music and sing). This is far better than all the traditional music bands which are put together to cater to tourists and really isn't much of the real Irish experience at all. Though, this time of year, the tourist stuff may not be being pushed that much.
If you are around Dingle, there is an amazing archeological tour run by a guy in a minivan that goes way off the beaten path. (I'm a Lonely Planet type traveller, not sure of your style.)
The hokey mideival feasts in real castles are actually pretty fun :-) Oh, and if you are likely to go pubbing, I'd recommend (strongly) getting a B&B within walking distance. The Irish have a pretty strong tradition of buying rounds, and everyone in the round is supposed to buy a round, and, well, you can often wind up stayin out later than intended.
Be careful driving! It is pretty darn scary and the Irish whip around not only just in their little cars, but in the big buses and trucks like mad.
Leave the R books at home and pack some massage oil instead. You are not so powerful as you think you know. Your entire M does not rest on every little decision you make, though I know it seems to you as though it does right now. It really doesn't. It depends on the kind of person and partner you become in general. No one is perfect and you don't need to be either. So RELAX
As for romance, I'd suggest you throw in a few ardent gestures on top of the gentlemanly considerateness. Having a door opened for you is nice, but it doesn't really make the blood race, if you know what I mean. Pin her against a cliff and kiss her deeply, press into her, put your hands on her. Seriously. Tentativeness can be a real passion killer.
I think your list should be magnified and put someplace on the main page of this forum.
I don't have expectations mind you, but a positive expectancy that soon we will have another success story to share; and it doesn't matter hopw soon it happens I just see it coming. And by success I don't mean getting the WAS back, no; I mean success in taking destiny by the horns, turning the tables around and doing something that's considered impossible to do - changing oneself.
Well, in fact I think most of the women on this board are already envious towards your W (such as what did she do to deserve this loyalty) But anyway, go, don't stress yourself too much thinking that it's your chance to make it or break it, because we are standing right behind you every step of the way no matter what results are. The main requirement is have fun!
Dragon
To get through the darkest period of the night, act as if it is already morning.
The Talmud
