I'm so sorry you are in such pain. I agree with Rob, "Stating your feelings in a direct and honest way is not wrong my friend. You did that. You backed away from it when it started to escalate. What's wrong here? You are not expected to push everything under the rug and deny feelings. At least I don't believe so."
I really hope you'll accept your feelings and that there is nothing wrong with having them and expressing them. You had no reason to apologize for saying you were hurt and scared, so for the apology I'll give you a raised eyebrow.
Great job, I think, calling W on her crap. She is giving you sh*t for being suspicious??? Why shouldn't you be, she has cheated on you and still is not honest with you!!
And, I'm glad to see you are questioning whether or not you want this M. Her line about her not leaving now, when she was 2 months ago, about killed me.
My take on that, though I may be reading in too much, is that she thinks you should be grateful and content with crumbs. I think the problem here is that she doesn't get it. She does not get that your M is on the line, because she feels totally in control. She doesn't understand that you aren't there no matter what, that she is risking losing you and whether your M survives isn't simply her choice.
BTW, with respect to the friendship thing with OM, you are right, it is BS, and you won't be actively rebuilding your M as partners until she is willing to give him up. You need to develop your own boundary here as to what is acceptable and respect it.
In any case, time once again to start focusing on YOU apart from the R. That there will be an M is not a foregone conclusion, and not just because of her choices. You may decide that you are unwilling to settle for her as a partner after your growth through this process. Right now, she's not looking like a very appealing partner to me (even if I was into chicks.)
So, once again, I'd suggest you step away from the R. If anything is to come of it, let her do MOST of the work in this R for awhile in terms of pursuing you, addressing your feelings, becoming honest with herself about what she has done.
BTW, the necklace is not what is wrong with your R, neither is the teddy bear. You have a huge amount of anger toward your W. Maybe if you can recognize and accept that you will have an easier time not projecting it onto those objects.
I think maybe you are sliding into accepting 100% of the problems and trying to provide 100% of the solutions. But grasshopper, all you need to do, all you can do is to take care of yourself and become the person and partner you want to be. Whether she steps up and becomes the partner you want is open to question and up to her. Try to take a critical eye toward your M and W here to get some perspective, it might help you get some distance which is really crucial for you at this point, for your own sake. At some point, you will once again see her for who she really is (hey, I know the pain induced blindness to the spouse's flaws that follows the bomb) and for what kind of partner she has been and can be for you. The sooner you can shift back into a realistic picture of W the better for you. It will become easier the happier you are with yourself. So, as always, GAL the success of which is not contingent on W's continued presence.
BTW, here are my boundaries (1) I will not be more in a romantic R more than my partner is, (2) I will not be in a romantic R with someone who maintains relationships with old lovers (PA or EA) from which I am excluded. (Note, this does not mean my H has no friendships with old girlfriends, it means that they are now OUR friends. If someone can't be a friend to us and our R, then they have no place in either of our lives.)
OT, I am really glad that you posted this. I've been attempting a response all this am and all I wanted to do was to tell GH that at some point enough is enough. But I found myself getting flustered and I'd walk away from the keyboard.
OTs post was great. I'm just going to add the following. You have a couple of days to pull yourself together before you leave for Ireland. You can do this. Go and have absolutely NO expectations. I think there may be some comfort in knowing that if she or OM make any attempt in contacting one another you will know it. Most cell phones don't have access to international calling unless it has been set previously. So she would already have had to do this, or he would. Or she'd be calling from the hotel which you would see the bill upon checkout. Secondly, OM probably is feeling a bit out of sorts (poor guy, boo hoo) that his GF is going away for a week with her H...so thus the little momento...the necklace. Something for her to have so she could think of him while they were separated. FYI, Targets here in Dallas close at 9 on Sundays and 10 the rest of the week...anyway, that's it...anymore of my thoughts and I'll be backsliding here...and we don't want that to happen.
Quote: Try this one on for size too. It seems like after these exchanges, my W really tries to, with her actions only of course, reassure me that things are ok. Does your W do that too.
Awww, absolutely. This in fact just occurred yesterday. In the a.m., I got a little upset with my W a bit and we started to argue, not about the R in particular, just some random BS...of course, all the arguing goes to one thing...basically she said some things, I said some things. I tolde her I didn't appreciate some of the comments, so forth and so on. Long story short, an hour later she hunts me down and gives me a hug and kiss. Later that night I get the TM's from work telling me how much she loves me and only me, that she just wants our simple life back etc, etc. So yeah, there's rebound. No doubt she'll start "sunsetting" by Thursday and Mr. Wonderful Rob will Mr. Last Week.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I'm so sorry you are in such pain. I agree with Rob, "Stating your feelings in a direct and honest way is not wrong my friend. You did that. You backed away from it when it started to escalate. What's wrong here? You are not expected to push everything under the rug and deny feelings. At least I don't believe so."
Thank you. If you can imaging, I was almost dreading your post...lol.
I really hope you'll accept your feelings and that there is nothing wrong with having them and expressing them. You had no reason to apologize for saying you were hurt and scared, so for the apology I'll give you a raised eyebrow.
And funny, to the above statement, it WAS the apology that I thought you might question the most. See, I'm learning. I need a wristband: WWOTD... I do accept my feelings and my right to them, I just question how to deal with them in the context of a situation where I am not supposed to be having "R" talks.
Great job, I think, calling W on her crap. She is giving you sh*t for being suspicious??? Why shouldn't you be, she has cheated on you and still is not honest with you!!
See above. I could have called her every day on this stuff but chose to let it go in keeping with the DB/DR way of self improvement and detaching from the situation. I am not proud of that. There were and will be the time and place for that. I let my emotions control me long enough to make a stupid decision. I am not ashamed of it, just disappointed.
I am questioning it, but mainly because I am realizing that this situation may play out longer than I will have the strength to deal with it and I will be forced (read:force myself) to make the decision for both of us. I hope it doesn't come to that.
And, I'm glad to see you are questioning whether or not you want this M. Her line about her not leaving now, when she was 2 months ago, about killed me. My take on that, though I may be reading in too much, is that she thinks you should be grateful and content with crumbs. I think the problem here is that she doesn't get it. She does not get that your M is on the line, because she feels totally in control. She doesn't understand that you aren't there no matter what, that she is risking losing you and whether your M survives isn't simply her choice.
As for her comment, I know I am going to sound like I am defending her, and I suppose I am, but that was not a "you should be happy with what you have" comment, or at least the way she said it, the look on her face, her body language didn't convey that. I sense she meant it as a way to agree with me saying how our R is much better now that it has been recently and that she's still in the process of emotionally re-connecting with me/disconnecting with him. Could that all be BS? Sure it could, but it could be true too. Nether you nor I know that right now. I agree that I think she feels totally in control. I think SHE thinks I am buying all the crap she's selling me because I don't show her any different. I also think that's why these little "slips" are not ALL bad because she gets a glimpse into the reality that I am NOT buying this stuff even though I don't call her on most of it. The idea that this is NOT her choice alone to make is one I have repeated to her numerous times starting on day 2 of the sitch. I know it's just words, but I have said them and she's heard them. In the absence of action, whether she believes me or not is suspect.
BTW, with respect to the friendship thing with OM, you are right, it is BS, and you won't be actively rebuilding your M as partners until she is willing to give him up. You need to develop your own boundary here as to what is acceptable and respect it.
Yep. I was NOT as strong on this point as I wanted to be last night but I did say NO at first and backed off just because I had already decided to stop the conversation.
In any case, time once again to start focusing on YOU apart from the R. That there will be an M is not a foregone conclusion, and not just because of her choices. You may decide that you are unwilling to settle for her as a partner after your growth through this process. Right now, she's not looking like a very appealing partner to me (even if I was into chicks.)
LOL at the into chicks thing. I am not close to that point yet. There is still too much going for her that I can see still through all the crap. That said, IF she were to prolong this too much longer, or do things that push me much further, I may start looking harder. She is FAR from perfect, and I know that. I knew that when I married her. I will still hold true to the better or worse part of the broken vows...at least for now, and because I still want to.
So, once again, I'd suggest you step away from the R. If anything is to come of it, let her do MOST of the work in this R for awhile in terms of pursuing you, addressing your feelings, becoming honest with herself about what she has done.
I see evidence that she is starting to understand what she's done, but not much evidence that she's committed to mending it. Like I have said in the past, this woman does not pursue. Maybe that's something that drew me to her, maybe it's something that will push me away. Anything I do with the idea that she will chase me, will not work. Or should I say I don't think it will. That won't stop me from continuing to pull back and see where I am in the fictitious R.
BTW, the necklace is not what is wrong with your R, neither is the teddy bear. You have a huge amount of anger toward your W. Maybe if you can recognize and accept that you will have an easier time not projecting it onto those objects.
Sure, they're not what's wrong, but they are sure a in-your-face reminder of all that IS wrong. Do I have a lot of anger towards her. Sure do. Like her, I feel I have spent all these years doing for her and this is what I get for it. Now, having read a lot and understand a little more, I realize we were both giving what we wanted to receive and NOT what the other needed.
At some point, you will once again see her for who she really is (hey, I know the pain induced blindness to the spouse's flaws that follows the bomb) and for what kind of partner she has been and can be for you. The sooner you can shift back into a realistic picture of W the better for you. It will become easier the happier you are with yourself. So, as always, GAL the success of which is not contingent on W's continued presence.
I am trying to do that, and in the process, I am seeing things I was not open to a few months ago. As for the GAL, I suppose it is true that I have always considered D and moving on as the easy road to take. I know that's ludicrous but in my mind it seems like it would be easy to do that if I just let myself dwell on "what she's done to me". I know I don't NEED her here anymore to maintain happiness, but I still WANT her if she is open to taking responsibility for what she's done and what WE need to do to make our new marriage stronger than the old one.
As for your boundaries, I like them. I am not IN a romantic R more than my W is. There is NO romantic R between us right now so I am in no danger of that. As for the second part, sorry, don't want to be this a-hole's friend. Oops...angry again.
No doubt she'll start "sunsetting" by Thursday and Mr. Wonderful Rob will Mr. Last Week.
Know what, I think you have it in your head that Thursday is the worst day ever. I know you joke about it, but how about this Thursday you make plans to do your favorite thing (and no, it can't be THAT favorite thing...lol) or buy something that you've wanted for awhile. Make Thursday the best day of the week for Rob and F what it is in terms of all else. You need to kick that habit.
As for the second part, sorry, don't want to be this a-hole's friend. Oops...angry again.
LOL...I AM friends with 2 of my exH exGFs as well as his current GF. This includes one that he had an A with while we were married. Of course we weren't friends BACK then, but she's actually quite a doll and one of my closest friends now...Dave used to ask why I couldn't be friends with RK since I was friends with exH GFs, I said big difference. I'm not in love with him. I called exGF at the time Fluffy...I still call her Fluffy...we both get a kick out of it now.
Yea, even if it's so I never have to try and figure out an alphabet soup like that, I will pass. lol.
Minor update:
Well, I think I am ok for now. W and I are back to the usual daily back-n-forth. She's called once as I posted earlier. I called once to let her know I told her the wrong time for my meeting this evening. When I called, she was short and was not home (she said she was on her way home at 9:30 when she called me...it was 12:00 when I talked to her). Why does she have to either lie or whatever that is she's doing about something so stupid. Just say you're not going home, or you don't know what you're going to do. Geezus. I didn't ask what she was doing anyway, she volunteered the info. Maybe I could ask her to only do that when she actually knows what she's doing, or isn't prepared to lie about it.
I think my new goal will be to NOT pay attention to where my W is, or when she gets home. I know that sounds pretty basic and for me, tough, but it's time. It's part of letting go.
So, that aside, and it truly is, you all, my own desire, and time have helped me get back to my "ok" place. I am back on course for Ireland with a beginner's mind and a child's curiosity.
Know what I am most afraid of right now? That I won't be able to just leave this crap behind for the trip. I think I will be able to. I plan on it. Maybe I just don't pack it, huh? It's just in the execution that I suffer some anxiety.
By the way, thank you for the Thursday comment...yes in many ways I think you're right, its the whole negative thinking leading to negative results. I think the goal is to make this week different.
As for you, I think you are back on track here and I'm happy for you. Some good advice has been coming your way and I can sense a very different approach in your posts. Keep up the good work!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Well, predictably, my ideas about Ireland are not quite my W's. It seems as though her sister and brother-in-law are going to be with us almost the entire time. Gee, what fun. Anyway, not much else going on. Packing and getting the last minute things together. Will post tomorrow. Nite all.
Like I said, W's idea of our trip seems quite a bit different than mine, but no matter. It will be fun. The main thing now is me dealing with my W being VERY distant the past couple days. Really, yesterday, the day after our little R talk, she was hardly there. We didn't talk much at all. When we were in the same room it was strained. None of the talk about the trip we have been doing lately. This is strange because she is usualy more friendly after one of the R talks. Like I told Rob, she usually makes it a point to be friendly and more open, almost to prove that I was making a big deal out of nothing. Having just finished the part of Mars/Venus that talks about a woman feeling down sometimes and NOT to take it personally, I am just going to ride this out and see what happenes. On that note about the book. There was a lot of stuff it was talking about that I could not identify with and it was beginning to turn me off. Now, however, I am back to stuff that really resonates with me and my situation, mainly the way it talks about men always wanting to fix they W's moods and talk them out of their feelings. The part I was most interested in was the theory that over time, women who have this done to them will stop sharing and eventually experience a sense of lost love. WAW anyone? Of course, there are things the book suggestes to do to avoid this, but I think it will not go into ways to fix this problem once it advances as far as mine has. I guess what I am taking from this book is something that is a theme in most of the books I have read; don't take things personally. Mars/Venus tends to break things down along gender lines to tell you WHY a man should not take something personally that a woman does or says and that's helpful to a clueless guy like me. I really think I need to make myself a cheat sheet to keep with me on the trip outlining the most important things I have learned and behaviors I want to exhibit. I have such mixed feelings now. I am totally excited and anxiety filled at the same time.
