You said (Let me ask you this… why should your hesitancy bother you? Are you feeling pressure from me (or other men), that any “feminist” comment you make will trigger a response? Do you feel like big brother is watching you?)
Simple answer....NO. I do, say what I want regardless of how you react or what you will say.
("So you see, to me this is about women’s insecurity, but trying to make it the man’s responsibility. Sorry, I won’t own that one.")....and that, IMPO...is a load of crap Cobra. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and your view....we definitely don't agree though.
You see such blatant double standards from your perspective Cobra.....women do too, equally so from our side. Chances are the two genders will never come to see this the same way.
Also, I wasn't so much saying that just because a man looks at a swimsuit model that "he" is objectifying her.....a man is going to look, I understand that. However, you missed the point completely in what I was saying...that our society...has had a history of portraying men and women in certain manners.....very differently....and that because of that it has become generally more accepted that men will view "porn" an women won't/don't.
Gonna stay out of all this feminist talk. But I do want to say that I do agree in part with something you said.
So you see, to me this is about women’s insecurity, but trying to make it the man’s responsibility. Sorry, I won’t own that one.
I have to agree with this to some degree. Not for the woman who is open to there H viewing porn in moderation but for the ones who are so anti porn anti nudity and so forth that it seems like they are on a crusade. I do believe that it is there own self image that makes them behave like men are vial creatures for watching a swimsuit competion or visit a stip club or not looking away in a saucy scene of a movie. They take there own inadequacy and make a male out to be the devil. No man should have to own that.
To that extent....I will agree with that statement. Those women are the type of women I would probably call prudes. YET...they would also probably be the woman delving into romance novels My mom would fit into that category.
GEL said something here that I think is a good point and an issue and this can hurt relationships:
QUOTE: "you need to be wary that he's not concentrating on the porn to get off....instead he needs to focus on you."
I read of some research done that when a man goes off then whomever he is looking at..either with his physical eyes or in fantasyland...that face imprints on his mind and it is a "bonding experience" for him. He is in love with that person!
One reason why some couples who are married for 60+ years and the H still thinks that she is a "hot mama" is because of this. Having sex physically and mentally!!! with just one woman makes their bond stronger.
I think that looking at studies and statistics about what porn can do in R matters more than how any of us "feels" about it! For me it is about how it hurts R.
And for most that are so obsessed with it just a simple "ok, I'll stop" won't be enough. Even if you turn off the computer...you cannot turn off the data stored in the brain...and that data playing while you are having S with your Spouse doesn't add to intimacy in M. I just think it is important to lay out the facts so that decisions can be made with more than "feelings" about it.
Porn is a huge issue today, because it is so much easier to come by. And it takes a real heart change to be able to kick it...if a person wants to.
My issue with porn doesn't have anthing to do with "objectification." It has to do with the reasons for viewing the porn. The "men are visual" is a sidestep of the real issue. If the viewing is a result not getting one's needs met or choosing not to meet the other person's sexual needs it is a problem. If it is viewing in order to obtain some novelty - then grow up and find novelty in your R (blackfoot addressed this somewhere today). If we just allow a simplistic "guys are visual" as an explanation for all porn viewing then we miss the point. Viewing porn can be harmful to relationships, it can be addictive, it can have its roots in an immature, objectified view of women or it can be a healthy expression of sexuality and taking responsiblity for one's own sexual interest (if wife is unavailable, out of town or wants to view it with you - fine). Feminism has NOTHING to do with the issue.
Also, if feminists were all to blame I would expect businesses to be springing up that cater to the things women like - big strong guys who give massages while whispering how beautiful and sexy we are in beautifully decorated rooms lit with candles. Oh, and they would offer childare in a separate facility.
Do you see a restaraunt called "Dicks"....no, but you do see "Hooters".
A small quibble. We have a tavern around here called "Dicks Halfway Inn" which my kids think is the funniest thing. I will grant you that it doesn't feature bare chested male waiters though.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
I knew someone would come back with something on that but didn't have an opportunity to change it.....but ya'll knew what I meant. No diners out there for women where we can be served......hot dogs? by men in skin tight spandex shorts and no shirts now is there? Oh yeah....and they have to fit a certain physical profile to work there as well.
"Oh yeah....and they have to fit a certain physical profile to work there as well."
Dangit! I was hoping you were going to forget to say that GEL. I had in mind a bunch of guys with the physique of Michael Moore wearing skin-tight spandex and serving jello. LOL
NOTE: this was a joke and is in no way to be construed as an attack on the overweight community. Remember, as far as I am concerned, when the lights go out, all that matters is desire and ability.
Chrome
p.s. Why am I still here? Where's Waldo?
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Now remember I was the one who LIKED Dr. Laura's book! ha ha and thought she was right on... you didn't think I was a feminist then...
It is degrading to the women who participate in porn. It is not degrading to me! I said "it makes us objects"...I should have said "it makes them objects".
If you read life stories, see interviews and the like of women who come out of a life of centerfolds and porn they told what the life was like and how it hurt them. They are affected for the rest of their life. I've known a few women personally. They can be pretty messed up. "Pretty Woman"...not a proper depiction of that profession at all.
and that because of that it has become generally more accepted that men will view "porn" an women won't/don't.
Ok, now that’s your load of crap. I think that if women decide they want to view porn, they will, and over time, society will come to accept that as normal, or at least as acceptable for women as for men. But I don’t think women in general care to look at porn that much. Maybe every now and then if someone puts a book in front of them…. And since there is no demand, there is no need to rewrite societal norms.
I understand that years ago, when women usually did not attend school, stayed at home with the kids and were treated like adult children by the husband, there was a tendency for the man to “control” things and this needed to be corrected. The feminist movement was a virtue in overturning that situation. But that old dynamic was actually more a function of western society and Christian values than education. Other eastern societies had just as low literacy rates in the past, yet maintained a matriarchal family structure. What’s up with that?
I think there is a lot of sexual shaming in our society, much of it “enabled” by women. Take Old Timer’s comments on lying about orgasm. Now who is responsible for that, really? The man? No. It is a simple boundary issue and the woman should say the truth. Saying she needs to fake orgasm to please the man is as much a cope out as saying society is responsible for suppressing the desire of women to view porn.
I also agree with Karen in that it can be harmful if it becomes addictive. But I also think that if it were not such a taboo in our society, those who get off to it, especially in an addictive way, would not find it so scintillating. They would have to find some other forbidden fruit to excite them.
Nicegirl,
Your comment that women in the porn industry are emotionally messed up misses the point. If this were a legitimate, unshamed industry, in which no stigmas were attached, then healthy women would participate and those statistics would vanish. Abused women would still exist, but be no more prevalent in the general population (theoretically speaking). So its not porn that does this, but the dysfunction in the family, and that transcends all industries.
My mom would fit into that category.
Oh yeah....and they have to fit a certain physical profile to work there as well.
