Not very productive. Instead, very blameful, accusatory, judgmental, manipulative, self-centered, and whiny.
Contrast: Honey, what's wrong? You are treating me horribly, you are terribly unfair, you are a horrible woman, wife and mother, I am the screwed over H
with: Honey what's wrong? I am really hurting because of the state of our marriage. And I'm really hurting and scared about your contact with OM. I feel it as a betrayal each time you are in contact with OM. I feel like it says something about me, that I am not good enough, that I am inadequate. I also feel used and taken advantage of. And, I get so scared because I really want our M to become one that we both want and I'm afraid your contact with him will undermine our chances. I'm frustrated because I really want to give you the time and space to figure this out on your own but it is very hard because I find it so painful. I feel second-best. I feel stupid for having trusted you and ungrounded because I don't know when to believe my own thoughts. I feel sick and panicked from the uncertainty. I'm confused about how to respect myself during this process and how to give you the freedom I want you to have so that you don't resent me. I resent you because I feel I am totally sacrificing myself to give us a chance while you are taking advantage of that. I'm angry at myself for feeling that resentment because I know that this is hard for you and you are giving as much as works for you right now. I'm really really hurting.
You see, when W asked what was wrong, I don't think she was asking you what was wrong WITH HER. Figure out your own feelings and report them. Don't tell her how she should react or what she should do in light of them.
"W, last night when you were worried about me I'm afraid I reacted out of anger and pain and jumped all over you. Let me try again to answer your question of concern that was concern about how I am doing..."
Quote: You see, when W asked what was wrong, I don't think she was asking you what was wrong WITH HER. Figure out your own feelings and report them. Don't tell her how she should react or what she should do in light of them.
I dunno...I've actually done both...swung back and forth between the first and second....target HER when I'm angry and pissed...but when calm, try to express my feelings.
The problem I've found, is first, it's obvious with the first...it's accusatory, and pushes her away.
But with the second, it instills guilt in her and makes her feel bad about herself (even thought I'm describing ME), she ends up saying that she feels horrible that she can't give me what I want or need. I also wonder if it also pushes her away in a different way, by sounding needy, desperate, wimpy?
Crow Jane, Crow Jane, come 'on, I wanna know,
how you love some man, but don't love me no mo'
Quote: Not very productive. Instead, very blameful, accusatory, judgmental, manipulative, self-centered, and whiny.
You might be missing a few adjectives there, lol.
All in all though, a very interesting contrast. Yes, I could have said that same exact thing the second way and it would have been more truthful than being accusatory. It is, after all, a report of my feelings. Although, in all fairness, I did say many of those things putting them into "I" statements. Either way, I should have "jumped the grenade" and never let the obsessive thoughts take over anyhow.
Thank you for chiming in oldtimer, your posts have always been helpful to me.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: But with the second, it instills guilt in her and makes her feel bad about herself (even thought I'm describing ME), she ends up saying that she feels horrible that she can't give me what I want or need. I also wonder if it also pushes her away in a different way, by sounding needy, desperate, wimpy?
I tend to agree with this. They say you can't argue with how someone feels, well somebody tell my W this. She does it all the time. I could say that I feel bad because someone died and she'd tell me I was stupid for feeling that way if she didn't like the person (well not really, but you get the point). That is one of the big problems from HER side of this. She constantly argues with how I feel. Now, I admit to FEELING too much sometimes, but still, that supposed safety zone that exists where if we stick to OUR feelings and stay away from talking about their feelings or actions, then we are ok does not exist in my marriage. It is one of the things that I have changed about myself (oh, of course I used to do the same thing..."honey, you don't need to cry over that. It's stupid, they were just being a-holes. You shouldn't be sad over that...oops) and a change I would like to see in her. Especially now she takes everything personally, even more than before, so I am very guarded about expressing anything to her that she may be able to turn around on me. Sad but true. It IS getting better and time is taking care of some of it. The rest is up to her/me/us.
No you can't argue with how someone feels and this too is something that I've tended to do over the years....in all fairness, so has my W and still continues to do so. She has never been real good at communicating feelings (call it background, upbringing, whatever) but when something is bothering her, she will tend to internalize it and not discuss it. If its something I have done to make her feel that way, she would usually put it into accusatory statements.
In my own defense here, I really wasn't being accusatory and for the most part, in most of our conversations, I DO put forth my feelings in "I" statements. In our conversations, I strive to put forth how I feel without assessing blame, just stating the facts. It really doesn't get me anywhere because I feel that when I do that, it only instills guilt. As with GH's W, right now, my W takes everything very personally, whether its my words or actions.
In any event, I like the idea of not allowing the external factors to affect me so that I don't have to worry about discussing these things.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Oh I see. So you are all worried about how to manage your spouse's feelings if you are honest about your own.
What about, "I feel dismissed and not heard when you try to tell me I shouldn't feel a certain way. I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't. I often wish I didn't. What I am telling you is how I feel."
What about, "It hurts me even to share this with you because I feel it is bringing up painful feelings in you. I don't want to hurt you."
How would you feel if W said, "I'm not going to tell you how I feel about our M and OM because it hurts you and I don't want to cause you pain. Instead, I will repress my feelings, not make any emotional progress, resent you, and block this path to emotional intimacy. Of course, this is all for your own good, I have to look after YOUR feelings for you after all."
Gee, so having an A and seeing how it hurts you causes W pain. Is that inappropriate????
You peeps try to keep W from feeling the pain of losing you (you will be STRONG and be there for her no matter what, right?), from feeling the pain of acknowledging the results of her own actions, from facing what they have done and are doing. You know what? It will work. It won't sink in until they are away from you and you quit managing their feelings. Then, maybe, they'll start to feel the loss and recognize the pain they have caused themselves and others. Of course, by that time, it may well be to late to salvage your M. But, at least in the meantime, you will have protected her feelings.
What about just being honest about the broad strokes of how you are feeling, "Gee honey, now that you ask, I am feeling very conflicted. I want to stay and work on this marriage but I also want to respect myself. I get confused about how to do that with OM still in the picture."
Now, I'm not saying it is always the right time to say such things. BUT, if there is going to be R talk, I would strongly recommend that it be of that nature.
Yes, I'm in an impatient mood this morning. But *really*.
I truly appreciate your directness and I can't say that I totally disagree with you. Obviously there are some things that I do obsess over that I shouldn't. I try to not let every little thing bother me. Now, that being said, when it does come time for conversation, I do strive to be direct about my feelings and how certain actions/inactions affect me. I've probably done more validating, directness etc in my conversations in the last two months than I've done in the last ten years. But, there is a fine line here. To be truthful, the knowledge that she is continuing an emotional attachement to the OM directly affects me every day. I feel hurt, betrayed and disrepected that she has a need to continue while at the same time telling me that this is what she wants in life. I have told her as much in those words. But, I can't allow those things to continue to bother me every day. She KNOWS precisely how I feel with regard to all of this.
That being said, this is where whatever emotional detachment that I can muster comes into play. I try to not let her actions and emotions get me down all the time. I let her roll with her own punches and, if she feels like discussing those feelings and emotions with me, I listen, I validate and I talk directly.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: "I'm not going to tell you how I feel about our M and OM because it hurts you and I don't want to cause you pain. Instead, I will repress my feelings, not make any emotional progress, resent you, and block this path to emotional intimacy. Of course, this is all for your own good, I have to look after YOUR feelings for you after all."
Um...that pretty much sums up my W's approach to all this.
So, Rob, I think OT is onto something here. In your sitch, and mine when such time comes that my W says she's ready to work on the M, you should feel comfortable expressing those kind of feelings in a direct way. I really hate the idea of someone else providing me a script for such a conversation, but I will admit that if I am ever ready to have that talk, I will re-read those posts by OT. I am REALLY starting to understand one of my failings that as of yet I did not recognize. I am VERY INdirect about a lot of things. Almost everything with me is insinuated or suggested but rarely ever (well at least before a month or so ago) has ever just been clearly communicated, directly. I think it is one of the most important things you and I need to learn to do on a consistent basis. We have been better, but when the chips are all stacked on the table, we tend to revert back to the old way of thinking "well, if I say this, then she may do/say/feel that so I had better not say it". We are STILL, after all this "growth" trying to control our W's. I get so frustrated with myself when I see that I am sometimes not moving forward so much as laterally, subconsciously, or even consciously replacing one destructive behavior with another. This idea of "feelings management" is a brilliant one OT. I never really realized I was doing that to her, but damnit if I have been doing that all our M, and ESPECIALLY since all this began. If I don't want her to "feel" a certain way, I just refrain from expressing whatever it is I feel that I think MAY cause her to...well, you know what I mean. Bad stuff.
No doubt about it, I have recognized that about myself for some time. Again, its not that I have been the only one...in fact, my W is the queen of insinuatioin as opposed to directness, but that's neither here nor there...hopefully its an issue we both can address when the time comes. For my part, I have been attempting to be more direct in my wants and feelings. My major problem is that I attempt to do this too often. Like this morning, I haven't told her anything new, she knows that I feel hurt by her actions....so what's the point of brining it up all the time? Secondly, yes....I do revert now and again to the old way of thinking ahead and scripting out everything...if I do "x" she will say "Y" and then I'll say "z"...all designed to get to point A.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I have this problem too, bringing stuff up repeatedly. I think it is because I have a hard time feeling heard, probably even if I am heard. If this sounds familiar, maybe you could try asking for reassurance that she heard you, lol.
