Quote: Why is it that I always read something like this AFTER I make the mistake of bringing the subject up with my W?
Well, really, it is just the opinion of my C that based on my W's history (as I tell it) she is more likely to have a hard time cutting loose from this guy than other people would and that I need to give it time and space to die (sound familiar?). Of course I agree with her and it was nice to have someone who has not always been totally in line with the DB way come to the same conclusions. Of course she is listening to me and validating but it still feels good.
As I have ALWAYS said about your sitch, you need to just go with this thing and see where it leads. Are you closer to a D than you were a few weeks/months ago? If not, then you are doing something right. Is worrying and stressing about things beyond your control going to move you closer to or further away from a D? You just want everything to be cut and dried, and fixed right now. You want no complications (which by the way, is a desire your W seems not to share...read:we need more excitment). It sounds like you want your old M back, something that by now you should know is not possible nor desirable. You can't keep doing, doing, doing right up until something happens and then immediately stop DB and everything else positive while you try to figure out what it means. It can't be said enough. These things you do are for YOU, not to see how they affect your W!
And...I don't think you did a terrible thing, but it would be good to know what her response was. Please post more.
Quote: Are you closer to a D than you were a few weeks/months ago? If not, then you are doing something right. Is worrying and stressing about things beyond your control going to move you closer to or further away from a D?
A two part question. First off, do I belive that we are closer to a D? Actually, no. If anything, I think we are further from a D or even an S than we were back in December. Prior to the New Year, she was definitely leaning to S. So in that respect, yes, I must have been doing something right the past two months because, as far as I can tell, that's not even an option for her at this point. Remember, she has said that this is where she wants to be, etc.
Now, for the second part of that question....do I believe that worrying and obsessing over things that are out of my control will move us closer to a D? Maybe not a full out D, but it could eventually push her into an S.
Quote: You just want everything to be cut and dried, and fixed right now. You want no complications (which by the way, is a desire your W seems not to share...read:we need more excitment). It sounds like you want your old M back, something that by now you should know is not possible nor desirable.
Yes, a quick fix is absolutely desirable. I don't want this OM to be part of our lives anymore. I want to be able to move forward with our M and make things work. Do I want the old M back? Some aspects of it, yes. Obviously things can't be the same as they were....I would even ackowledge that, and truthfully, I don't want things exactly the same....I want more excitement, I want to bond with my W without the complication, I want a lot of things.
Quote: You can't keep doing, doing, doing right up until something happens and then immediately stop DB and everything else positive while you try to figure out what it means. It can't be said enough. These things you do are for YOU, not to see how they affect your W!
And to a very large extent, these things I am doing for me. I have seen progress in myself and the way I perceive myself. To some extent, yes I am doing these things to affect her...obviously becuase that's what this is about. Its not about manipulating her, but to bring about a change in thinking. Now, at the same time, I haven't been sitting around glum and dreary and have interacted positively with her and the girls. I am a far cry from where I was 2 or 3 months ago (read: blubbering idiot). It is indeed a work in progress.
Quote: And...I don't think you did a terrible thing, but it would be good to know what her response was. Please post more
No, I would agree it wasn't a terrible thing. But still it just goes to show me that these obsessive thoughts catch hold of my brain and don't want to let go. In a nutshell, she asked me yesterday what was bothering me. I told her. I really do not believe that it is fair for her to believe that she can work on this relationship to the extent that she has said she would while she continues to maintain an R with him, however trite it may be. I told her that in the reverse situation, she would never accept that, etc. This conversation started last night, she went to work, and then I picked up on it again this morning.
Here are some of her responses: I just talk to him as a friend, we don't get together, etc.
No, I never said it was fair.
No matter how good things are going, you're still never happy.
Give me a chance.
Okay, so you see the gist of it? Long story short, yes, she recognizes that it is not "ok" to continue the relationship. At the same time, what the heck is wrong with me that I cannot accept any less that total committment. So there it is, in a nutshell.
You know, despite all this, I do still see many positives and I know that time is on my side if only I can have the patience.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Last night and this morning I told my W in no certain terms that I didn't feel that it was right, fair, etc for her to be telling me that she wants to try and work this out and that this is where she wants to be, while continuing to keep OM in her life. They still keep in contact
I think it's true that a working on the primary relationship is sabotaged by continued contact with the OP. The OP has to be cut off entirely forever.
So, if your W is at a place where she says she wishes to work on your relationship, I think it entirely appropriate to make that request. Of course, the manner in which one makes that request is important.
"Last night and this morning"... may be too much. You've stated it once, and she heard you. To keep hammering away at it could have a negative effect.
It could be that your W is keeping OM as a safety net in the event the reconciliation doesn't work out. However, by continuing an emotional attachment to him does interfere with her emotional attachment to you, and vice versa, not being able to give 100% to either party.
In the meantime, you have to work more on your changes and get rid of the behaviors that impact your W in a negative way that has her keeping her walls up. Seriously. IOW, you have to develop yourself to where you are definitely the better option, the one that meets her needs and creates a completely comfortable and safe environment for her to be herself.
please know that I understand that I KNOW what I am doing is counterproductive, its just stopping the behavior before it happens.
Give up that control, you can't stop anything from happening. You engage in this behavior because of a reason, and the reason most probably deep down is that you fear losing her. But you're more likely to lose her by engaging in counterproductive behavior, no?
Accept what is. You only set yourself up for frustration otherwise. What you're doing with this control is trying to get W to meet your expectations now. That may or may not happen, but that's going to depend on her, not you. All you can do is influence her, and you can't influence someone in these sitches by words alone, and certainly, not by demands.
So the key here is YOU, since you're the only one you can control. Purge your expectations, and frustration will dissipate. So will your anger. Give up trying to control the situation. It is what it is, not what you'd like it to be. Work with what is, instead. Focus on your development, because those consistent changes are really the most credible way to slowly convince her where her best option is.
And really, if you KNOW that what you're doing is counterproductive, then WHY do you insist on doing it? Take the mind set that every time you do something counterproductive, you're setting the clock back, giving her more reason not to draw close. Do NOT make the mistake of thinking that your counterproductive behavior has no or slight impact on her.
Quote: And really, if you KNOW that what you're doing is counterproductive, then WHY do you insist on doing it?
I said the book Reinventing Yourself was not particularly good for me, but one thing it did do a good job of pointing out is how the victim's mind works. Any expression of feeling helpless when trying to control one's behavior is seen as a victim's way of thinking. You somehow get satisfaction in behaving this way. How do I know? Because I do too. It feels, well, good isn't really the word for it, but it feels pleasing to be the victim. It's easy to say "I can't help myself." It takes the responsibility away from you and places it somewhere else. I had a really interesting moment the other day when my W had her cell in the house and the OM called. I got pissed, stormed upstairs, threw myself on the bed and got all prepared to have a good cry...know what? It didn't happen. I really tried, but something inside me finally decided that it didn't want to do that anymore. I MADE THE DECISION not to make an action out of the emotion I was feeling. I decided that even though I felt entitled to a little tantrum, I was not going to allow myself to feel good about it. It was negative and feeling anything positive about it was bad, at least for me. What I am getting at is you need to realize that some part of you wants this drama. Some part of you feeds on it. Maybe it's the part that believes that enough drama will get her attention. Maybe it's something else, but I really believe that when you finally decide that you don't want to do something, you simply don't do it, at least in these situations. Being a crack addict is another story. The human spirit is a wonderful thing in the right hands and if you allow yourself, you can overcome these negative ideas and emotions to get to a point where you no longer need to express them. They still exist, but they are once and for all, yours.
Very interesting points from both of your perspectives. It is a "victim" mentality and I suppose that at times, I do feed off of it, for whatever reason. Part of it too is just plain and simple impatience.
In any event, I do see positive changes in both myself and my stich...obviously I haven't purged all negative emotions, but again, I do see progress. As for being the better option, heck, I know I am (okay, please don't take that as being conceited --- he just has a lot of baggage).
NYS, thank you for at least the partial validation...it's precisely how I feel....she can't be giving 100% emotionally here when part of her is stil there. Now, whatever the reason, I don't know, but I guess I have to accept that she still has the emotional attachment, whether its a safety net or otherwise. Something she said to me this morning sticks in my mind in this regard. She said that she had told OM that she was trying to work things out here. Okay, maybe its semantics, but "trying"...I would have been more plesed had she told him the same things that she told me (her life is here, she loves me etc) now I recognzie that perhaps she's being "soft" on him, but to me, it indicates that she is not convinced.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Forget the 2x4s, the whip, I’m going to buy stock in Duct Tape and use it on ya’ll…keep those ever loving mouths of yours SHUSHED!!
Oh my Rob…have you ever had an addition? Smoking? Coffee? Chocolate? Have you ever tried to get over the addiction? What was it like for you?
I know I have tried a couple of times the past few months to quit smoking. Now I know it is bad for my health, I hate the way cigarettes smell, the clothing, hair etc. It’s my only vice in life…and it’s my life and I’ll quit when I am ready…Okay, I have tried to quit. I cut down a bit but I wasn’t smoking all that much to begin with. can But once I have that cup of coffee in the am, I NEED a smoke…there is nothing like a cup of coffee or even an alcoholic beverage and a smoke.
So how does one break an addiction…some can do it cold turkey, some use other methods to curb their addiction until they are weaned off the drug, some even go as far as finding something else to be addicted to. The same thing goes with a A. It’s an addiction. You fight against what you know/feel is right vs. something that makes you feel so good when you are in it.
Some can break this addiction cold turkey…sometimes it’s when faced with exposure of the A, sometimes when a life/death situation intervenes and sometimes they go from one addiction (person) to another still in search of the feeling good sense. Others know that to be successful in recovery you have to experience the highs/lows of coming down off the high. You find yourself a good sponsor (the LBS or a therapist) to help the recovery process. Any setbacks, backslides can only bring back the addiction and perhaps even make it more powerful. Just like give me moderate stress level and the first thing I reach for, a smoke!
None of us live in a FedEx world, there is no instant fix or cure for matters of the heart…we can want all we want, doesn’t mean we’ll ever get what we want in life. Your wife knows what she is doing is wrong. She is struggling with it. But you need to back off of her and stop trying to control the situation. Let her open to you when she is ready.
I also agree with NYS that to move forward with your R the op has to be gone from her life. However, you have to help her feel comfortable in letting go of him. He is her safety net as he said. Just a friend that she can talk to. She needs to find that same comfort level with you.
Duct tape.....that may be the best suggestion yet, or at least the most effective one. lol!
Sincerely though Lisa, thank you for you insight as well. As I look at it objectively, I can see that in many respects it likely is getting better. The addiction analogy is by far the best I've come across in trying to rationalize (to the extent possible) the behavior.....don't they make a patch for this sort of thing?
Thank you again, its always nice to know that they are kind and giving people on this site who are eager to jump in and whip my butt into shape!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
If they DO make a patch, where would she stick it? Would it even stick there?
You just go back to your BEAR!! I KNOW where you are going with that thought...
As for the patch...sigh...if only it was that easy. In around about way, yes there is a patch available. It is called the LBS. Keep in mind that results may vary.
