Emerging from my cave

[Stigmata]

Well, I will not speculate on door openings/closings as I find myself following the same path as blackfoot, while in the first few stages of the same journey.

I will say this situation is necessary. It's like how they purify gold. High heat. Very high heat. (emotional pain) And the impurities rise to the surface and are skimmed away (anger, resentment, bitterness, betrayal etc.).

This had to be the course, at least for now. Before the D, x said "let me go" a number of times. Thats what he did. Boundary. Making her be responsible for her words and actions. If she was bluffing to get him to chase, she's paying for her hubris. If not? So be it; he granted her wish and was not needy, begging, or supplicating. Quite the opposite.

And he set a necessary hard boundary during Reconcile. Return to OM in the midst of giving the reconcile an honest hard effort, and it's over. She got angry and returned to OM in midst of the reconcile.

Just as her original choice to become unfaithful with OM, causing all of this immense strife, so was her choice to willingly return to a very very dangerous "don't go there" mutual understanding. OM was tainted for life IMO the moment x swore him off. She should have known better.

In both cases, if BF had placated or folded x would not have respected him IMO. If he had pleaded for her that he would never let her go in the first case as she told him to let her go; if he quickly took her back after warning her about returning to OM in the second case. Paper boundaries. Hence no respect. Especially for the long run with inevitable future lifelong major fcuk ups and tests. Tough Love.

Current pain from the purification to make potential future gold....

...and whether the gold ends up to be a new R with x or new R with OW is unknown at this point. And has to take its natural course or both of them will lose credibility with each other IMO.

Thanks for your help in my own similar painful process as well, bf...nothing teaches like experience.

-Stigmata-

[blackfoot]

Baltoman.

Thats the second post you have made to me where I said. oh. Crap. Thats gonna bounce around in my skull for months/years.

Damn you.

Again.
But thank you.

Maybe I'm wrong (hell it happenned a couple of times in the 70's and maybe once in the 90's now that I think about it),
2000's are looking up for you to. Must be my decade off. That guy watching me from overhead, has been issuing orders to the disobediant troops for months now.

[blackfoot]

Will someone please stop this maniac from posting without sufficient sleep?


Ladies.

your right. You suck at the comforting thing. Pipe down would ya. I need some quiet. (plus your making me squirm) Thanks for the good grub and the wine. <ahem> and the hugs.

Chrissy

Your right about the rewriting. It irritates me to no end, self protection mechanism it seems.
You have have helped me alot, from day one. Seeing a fellow control wizard in action its easy to see how hurtful it is to the SO.
When I talk with you, I am listening.

I am using illogic to rewrite.

One of my strength/weaknesses that Corri pointed out before, when she baited me with her quantum oscillator. (hmmm. sounds kinky. ) When I get overly tired, stressed, I dont have time, but continue to take on too much. lack of well being/overconfidance. Emotions get shut down, all that matters is solving the problem. bam bam bam, here is the answer, on to the next one. all processor, no humaness. bad for the R.

HP.
Your right, phooey. and I hope OTB is lurking about still. She liked me the way I was. I was the one who thought I needed to change (of course compromise in a R) and stuffed who I was. I was the one who became unhappy with who I was and of course she mirrored that. She just wanted me to be happy. IHO I wasnt with her.

Whenever I try to comfort H (the whole whopping *one* time he needed it),
Gosh. 1 time? criminey. Ive needed it at least 5 times in my life. Mr. H is such a stud. No wonder your so hot for him. Lucky you, having a guy like that.

Ill get there. Im working on it.

Karen
Did your testing directly lead to her choices? I doubt it. Was that testing ill advised in an R with someone you love and trust? Probably
No it was a straw. the heaviest, but not the final. ill-advised. absolutely. Not intentional, sub (mostly) concious. Too much stress. all logic, no heart. Lots of crashing insecurities. so simple to see now.

in the morning wake you early to go work out whether we were hung over or not.
Woman you ARE a masochist. get thoses boots away from me. I work out in the afternoon, before the drinking and partying starts. Important stuff first. Try to wake me when hung over --for anything other then emergencies, You will hear a ROAR- then continued deep breathing.

the real comfort will come from honest evaluation (not self flaggelation),
very true. you and another friend are smacking me proper. (damn. seriously. take those boots off. getting a little uppity there. ) I have a tendancy to take the self disciple to the flatulating-- I mean flaggelation extreme.

did you ever just let W be herself and be yourself in return?
Yes. of course. The first two years was drama and testing. 3 to 6 was good. 7 was taking for granted and slow dwindling of EC due to lack of QT. and 8 and 9 of course. Yee haa. Its not an adventure untill something goes wrong.

Did you show yourself to her?

Yes. Of course. She didnt like the insecure side.


LFL
That's not a Player BF Oh no you dont. Ive never thought that about myself untill you came along. no back tracking on me now. amongst all the other things, I played with my R. ignorant, naive, whatever you want to call it. Over confidance. and thats how women see me now, and it was bothering me immensely for a while there. Im a nice guy damnit. But its fine for now, I wont do rapport with them, (Like the real players do, with no honesty or cumpunction about the fallout), because I am not in a proper place. So if they see me that way, so be it. Its a protection. Itll work itself out.

Your self-esteem seems to have been really damaged by this mess (or was it always a mess...self-fulfilling prophecy?...hmmmm
excuse me? I think I am the cats meow. not proper H material with my inability to provide proper security, cuase of my incessenat push push pushing the envelope. but I allready know Its mellowing. nothing like I used to be. probably just a mild mania/MLC from D. a few more years and I will have mellowed enough. too old for kids then though. and yes with the self fullfilling thing- allready covered before.
I won't subject another woman to me" attitude. Yuck BF! You know that's an attraction killer and will come out subconsciously in your interactions with future women

It is huh. Well I must not believe it then or be hiding it really well currently. LOL. Ok ok your right.

Lil
Today Im doing Ok, its been 5 months since my D. Get over it all ready, Im thinking. Also I allowed a friend to poke and prod me relentlessly last night about the difference between acceptance and control, till I was freaking PISSED off. Interesting because I feel better today. Dropping the frame control is good sometimes. Oh yeah, and I hung out with a barn Owl yesterday, at work, 80 feet up. He came, we chilled for a bit, then he left. Really cool.

Stig.
I prefer platinum over gold. Its rarer dontchaknow. Ill be skimming the dross off for the rest of my life.

OM was tainted for life IMO the moment x swore him off. She should have known better.
The reality of it is. I poked her in the eye a real good one, with my 4 hour quiet slice and dice/LBing. She poked me right back. very predictable. Dr. Harley warned me. I dont allow myself mistakes, why should she? j/k.
she poked me So good my one good eye left couldnt see enough of the sitch to be anything other then protective and reactive. ditto for her.

cest la vie. Just cause you can see the problem from all angles, doesnt mean you can put humpty dumpty back together again.

[blackfoot]

Cobra

Your post is 98.364% correct. I counted the words that were wrong, and divided by the truths.

J/K.

ok brother. brass tacks.

Thank you for the first paragraph. Very much.
Your correct, I had no right to be testing her. Not that way. Not intentional.
Not sure what you mean by my logicalling of women though. Thats something I speak against.
Although general, your third paragraph is almost dead accurate.


I spent years encouraging and assisting her to become ... her own person? confidant? not needy? .....self sufficient.
I dont want a woman that needs me. pfff too easy. I wanted a woman that wanted/chose me. She often said 'I choose you everyday' and I would shudder, and think well it can change then, because I chose YOU on ONE day. our wedding day. as-is, lifetime deal. When it gets rough we will work on it, or white knuckle it untill things simmer down again. It always comes back around. When things get rough, you dont have to like it. You just have to do it.

So I gave her what I wanted, commitment and she gave me what she wanted, daily re-affirmations of love. But thats not love--to me. You can get that anywhere. Love is not something you get from another person. Its built together But if I had given her what she wanted, it wouldnt have changed.
More of this different perspectives on feeling love.

But only then will you be able to set aside your ego and realize that sometimes even PRINCIPAL is not sufficient to override love. Principal may let you sleep at night, but it won’t make you happy. Only love will do that.
Actually it doesnt allow me to sleep. Hence my postings. But I pounded principal into myself for a long time. Am I a man that makes choices, decisions, or a animal that gets lead about willy-nilly by my biology? Currently its questionable for me. And I hate that. So I focus on me and dont worry about her.
Where do you draw the line on emotional abuse of cheaters, the lack of respect for self and others and integrity? and setting aside ego? Rhetorical, because I drew my line. Living with it. I have my opinion on love, and she has hers. The leftover EC is reminder of my mistakes.

Very romantic espousings for a athiest/agnostic? though. My former best friend doesnt believe in anything that is not a chemical/nueral reaction. His words. No such thing as love, integrity or honor. Just survival of the fittest. attraction and mating.

But she holds the keys to your understanding and vice versa I believe this is true also, and why I am so ANTI divorce.

On the path you are heading, with the anger I sense in you, the determination to go your path alone, to hell with the world, you will become bitter and resentful
Ill be ok, but thank you for the concern and warning. They will subside. I will get my even keel back. I personally just cant handle infidelity. I tried once. I hope this doesnt mean its my personal puzzle.

The hurt is what makes your present path seem the logical choice. But years from now, that hurt is subside, the need for any sort of vengeance will fade and the logic of “punishing” your ex, dooming her to her choices, will not make any sense at all. But then it will be too late.

absolutely. .....In fact I pretty much told her the same thing, in Tx. She smirked at me. said ' ill have to live with it.'

Don’t be a fool
Too late. Where were you april of 04? I was just down the street from you.
At what point do you stop letting your yes mean yes and your NO, NO. She said, I am not the one for her.
.
Cold turkey is hard enough allready. I would probably do much better getting over her, were I too step away from here. Thank you again for stopping me from the self whupping.

You were and are not all that omniscient.
your right, and it Irks me to no end. More meditation required at the alter of self discipline. I can do it. I know I can. j/k

[Lillieperl]

blackfoot wrote

Today Im doing Ok, its been 5 months since my D. Get over it all ready, Im thinking.

Give yourself a break, blackfoot. When I got divorced (and I was only married for 4 years) I couldn't listen to the radio for two years because every song made me cry. And this was a D that I never regretted. My bf is just now getting "over" his-- it was eight years ago, and he has been in therapy and we also took a class on forgiveness.

If you "got over" a D in less than an year, possibly two, I would think you were an insensitive clod, and I KNOW you're not that. A D is a Big Deal, like a leg amputation, or like going blind-- or like someone chopping off your leg or poking your eye out with a stick. It's not like getting your hair cut, kwim?

The thing about a D that is so hard is that it is something you, or she, or you and she together do to the marriage. You basically kill it. You take this entity that you once loved and decide you (or she decides she) no longer love it and you hold its head under water until it stops moving. Like drowning a beloved dog because you are tired of feeding it. Even when there are good reasons, or when one of both of you are very unhappy-- it is a very sad and painful thing.

So don't expect to get over it any time soon. What you resist, persists. The pain is going to be there, accept that, and one day you will notice that it is less-- IF you don't keep pouring salt in the open sore.

And please stop resisting being the sensitive man that you are. Please stop pretending to be this "player" who has all the answers and never hurts. As a Whole Man, you can embrace all of what it means to be human, you can play all the roles, wear all the hats-- bartender, flirt, James Bond, strutting rooster, intellectual, little boy, playmate, sensitive best friend, witty jokester, loving partner-- but remember that under all of those roles is the unchanging ocean that is You. All of those roles are you, but you are not limited by any one of them.

You're going to hurt for a long time, but it won't be forever... don't run from the pain, just let it wash through you, it will eventually run out.

This is Yo' Mama who loves ya talkin', baby.

[karen1]

Bf,

Got my boots one for your own good! I'll exchange them for some ladylike high heeled sandles and a nice dress if you'll agree to treat yourself kindly in this process.

Yes - we ladies are terrible at comforting men. Possibly because while we are doing the "comforting" we still can't resist throwing in a thought or two. That is one of the lessons I keep learning very slowly.

Hope things are looking better in the bright light of day.

Karen

[Greeneyedlass]

BF,

I agree with the others that say to cut yourself some slack man. I chose to D my XH, I filed, I left HIM....yet it still took me years to get over the end of my M. There is a grieving process that you will have to go through, so just let yourself go through it, feel the feeling that are necessary for healing and moving forward....don't just try to shove it behind you and be a "macho man", that won't do you ANY favors in the long run.

I will tell you this also.... I was angry at my H for almost two years because he chose alcohol over me (his last drink was the day he walked out). One day I woke up and realized something was different, it was sort of like an avil dropped on my head, I realized....I wasn't angry at the man any longer.....in fact, I still loved him a great deal. Had I not tried to bulldoze my way back into the "social" thing and numb my pain by doing things to distract me I probably would have come to that realization much much sooner. Sad thing though, when I did finally come to that realization he had finally moved on himself (about a month earlier). He had been trying to reach out to me the entire time. Would call to see how I was doing, would bring me a gift by for my birthday or Christmas etc....always tried to keep in touch.....the man still loved me. By the time I woke up though he had given up on me and moved on (who could blame him either, two years is a bit of time to wait on someone to stop being mad at you.)

So feel what you need to feel don't retreat to your cave and numb that pain, get it out and get through it.....when it has passed you will see things much more clearly than you do right now. It's very possible you may find that your perception on your R with your XW changes, then again it may not. Right now you have every right to be angry with her but don't nail that door shut...leave it ajar so you can walk through it if you want to in the future.

GEL

[Chrissy]

Blackie,

I am not on the same wave length as the rest with you right now. I apolize I am not gonna tell you to stop beating yourself up and to take it easy on yourself.
But I understand the whole rewritting of history. Though I believe it is more then just a defense mechanism based on your relationship in this case.
I think you are on the verge of saying something that you need to say. And I am trying to not jump and put words into your mouth and take a line from your book and wait and see if I am right about what I think you have issue with. (reference to you thinking I have more then one secret).

You have have helped me alot, from day one.

This is a two way road.

[blackfoot]

Well, talk away BF. No one likes to be given rewards (good advice on the forum in this case) all the time. We need to give rewards (advice) too. Sometimes it is easier to see and react to others situations than our own.

Thank you OG. Your right. added that to my list: things to work on. needing others. letting others help.

Your right about the drama. I see a lot of similarities between my early R with x, and the one fools fool pointed out. I really like those highly emotional women, but then expect them to change. my x was well behaved? settled dwon with the testing fro a long time there. When A started it was like she had been saving up drama for 4 years, and preparing new and highly advanced testing.
Whew, did I fail. LOL. hahahah.
Im . Since I do choose those types, Im gonna have to step up and keep dealing with the tests.

[blackfoot]

saying something that you need to say. And I am trying to not jump and put words into your mouth and take a line from your book and wait and see if I am right about what I think you have issue with. (reference to you thinking I have more then one secret).

twice in one day you have me confused.

Nah I have pretty much said it all.
I beat myself up for putting the three of us in such close proximity. Ive known how and what causes attraction/falling in love for a long time.
I dont beat myself up at all for the crashing insecurities and not even for not protecting, though that IS a part of the putting all three of us together. because I honestly did not have understanding of that. I felt it and squelched it like many men do because of our socialization.

I dont even beat myself up for the cold hearted, logical, implying that I dont trust her, comment that I made, or the action that I did .... that made her insecure, jealous to the point of getting back at me. I was stuck in the spotlight, I looked at her, asked her for permission, she gave it, and thats that.

I do beat myself up for my emotional reactivity after A, and during reconcil. like baltoman says, when I was berating her, I was looking at myself going. 'Dude, stop. What are you doing'.
Ive gotten real angry, and handed out some justified whuppings in my past. Ive never treated anyone like that ever and it was just verbal. Pure malice and resentment. Its my bag of shame that I still carry.

To her- it demonstrated unequivocally that I didnt love her. I would never forgive her, it could never be the same.

also, I have allready said from day one here, that the actions I was taking during our second seperation were in fact going to instigate her to sign and complete the D.

LFL posted to me once about what I was doing, knowing better etc. Im not angry anymore, I can see where she would pop up for a breath of air occasionally, and I would push the M back down under the water again to use lils analogy.

So its possible that I wasnt a man of integrity, and respect, and honor, and didnt stick to my vows. But I have no guilt over it, because she was an adulterer. and the ideals I believe in excuses me from my marriage for this.

Still painful. Still had to fight my impulses to get her back. But I dont know if they came from principal, or feeling of loss, competitive drive, etc. gets muddled when your in that three person mix. I would have tried if she had been a WAW without the second A.


other then that, I have nothing to confess or secret that I can think of. So you are welcome to ask and I will be honest.