Blackfoot I really do understand about having the X cross a line that cannot be uncrossed. I understand about the need to say enough is enough. Whenever I read your introspective posts I can't help but think you are artificially closing a door that doesn't need to be closed yet. A door that you know in the back of your mind could be the door that leads you back to happiness, but something is driving you to work against your own self interest. I used to have a problem with my temper. I don't anymore but I remember distinctly it was as if I was a third person in the room watching this maniac berate someone he loved for no good reason. I'd sit above it all thinking "he really needs to stop" but I couldn't stop. Why do I feel like you are in a slow motion version of this? Sitting over top knowing that you shouldn't close this door but somehow powerless to stop it?
Maybe I'm wrong (hell it happenned a couple of times in the 70's and maybe once in the 90's now that I think about it), but I get a very strong feeling from your posts.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
I know what you are going through and feeling. But you are going into a black hole that can be dangerous. Do not blame yourself so harshly! You are NOT guilty of not loving her. That statement is one of total arrogance! Do you really think you have all the answers, and that you knew enough to know what you were doing to her at the time, that your were consciously hurting her? Your only sin is in being human, in not knowing the future and how you could be impacting others. But remember, you are still young, without the experience that age can provide. Are you to blame for that as well?
And she is not without fault either. You two were equally immature and needy. You two have both learned a great lesson. She made poor choices, she did not show her loyalty to you as you wanted. She did not pass your test. But what gives you the right to be testing her? That is the problem I have with your continual testing and “logicaling” of women. Sometimes they may decide they don’t like being tested, playing the game. Then what have you proved? The ones that get fed up with your games will not pass your test – they are too independent to play your game. The ones that do pass the test aren’t necessarily the ones you want either, because they may be too dependent on you, too insecure, that they end up suffocating you.
What was your wife? It sounds like you pushed her to become the independent one, when she originally was not. But as you withdrew, she had to stand up to you, had to fight to get you back. Then you laid out your tests. She said she wasn’t going to play that game. She raised the gamble, you called her bluff, and broke her. I think she is what you really wanted all along. But Like Schnarch says (yeah, I’m reading that book now), you were afraid to want her.
That is the other theme I get from all your posts. Nothing in particular, no specific comment, just the continual game playing, the deep analysis of women, the drive to know them better than they know themselves. And for what end? For protection. To cover your own vulnerabilities, to keep the opponent off balance, to set a counter offensive before they can even launch an attack – in short, to stay in control. The Art of War.
I’ve been there, done that. Not with nearly the skill and depth of knowledge you have. But the purpose was the same. The good thing is that you do not do this out of malice. You want to do what is best for women, because you truly care for them, but you need to find the confidence and peace within yourself. You must settle your demons. Maybe this means working on your FOO, I don’t know. But only then will you be able to set aside your ego and realize that sometimes even PRINCIPAL is not sufficient to override love. Principal may let you sleep at night, but it won’t make you happy. Only love will do that.
Stop pumping yourself up by saying you are saving her from the fate of being with you. You are not the same person you used to be. You are wiser, more experience, and have come to learn what is truly important in life. Do you really think you would have come to that understanding any other way. This awakening was meant to be. Where you go from here is your choice, it is not predestined. So what if she hasn’t figured out her sh*t! You haven’t either! But she holds the keys to your understanding and vice versa. I can tell you this much. On the path you are heading, with the anger I sense in you, the determination to go your path alone, to hell with the world, you will become bitter and resentful and pull further and further away from the truly enlightened person you can become. BTDT.
Right now your pride and ego are talking to you, but underneath all that is the hurt. The hurt is what makes your present path seem the logical choice. But years from now, that hurt is subside, the need for any sort of vengeance will fade and the logic of “punishing” your ex, dooming her to her choices, will not make any sense at all. But then it will be too late. Don’t be a fool.
Yes, go into your cave a while, let things settle. There is plenty of time. Be truthful with yourself, but stop beating yourself up. You were and are not all that omniscient. Come talk to me when you’re ready.
You are using logic to detach/shut down and re write what has been. Though I find it facinating I also found it sad.
I went back and re-read some of your old post. They read soul and heart and caring even though they were egotistical and self inflamed they were very warm and insightful. Your recent post have read cold and indifferent and half said sentences.
You have been a great leader in encouraging to embrace my emotions and not stuff or hide from them but to come to understand them and except them as part of me. I wish I could do the same favor for you. Because that old BF was such a awesome warm person and his presence is very much missed.
Blackie, You're breaking my heart, now wouldja quit it.
It makes me want to wrap you up in a big hug to read your pain so clearly.
I actually think that you broke each other--she's just more verbal and less cave-ish about it. You have done (or at least started) the work in figuring out your sh*t. From the sound of it, she's still wallowing. Can't yet see her role in all of this. It will hit her one day, with a clarity that will bring her to her knees.
As far as your disposition is concerned, phooey I say. No need to reinvent yourself--not possible anyway. Tweak it, maybe.
Well I'm at a loss. Truly, women do not know how to comfort men. Or I should say that I do not know how to verbally do it. If you were local, I'd cook you some nice grub or something. Silly internet has SO many limitations. Whenever I try to comfort H (the whole whopping *one* time he needed it), it usually ends up buggin him somehow so I will not force my lameness on you.
Just know that your last post made me cry and I don't do that easily or often.
Like HP, I can clearly hear your pain and yet, I am lousy at comforting men. H finds me much too close for comfort when he is in that much pain. When his best friend died he could barely be in a room with me but he loved going and doing stuff with guys e.g. bowling in silence, punctuated by the occasional "in your face, dude" (I went with them the silence felt weird). He wanted someone to just be with. Do you have someone that can do that for you - "just be" and allow you the same? If so, find that someone and head to the nearest - pool hall, batting cages, golf course, strip joint, bowling alley, gym or whatever and do some hanging out.
In the meantime, about your SO. I can't say I agree on the leaving the door open that Lil mentioned. I want you to try to remember that she was an active participant in ALL aspects of your marriage. She chose her behaviors and she chose the consequences. So did you. Did your testing directly lead to her choices? I doubt it. Was that testing ill advised in an R with someone you love and trust? Probably. Live and learn.
Bf, what if my H is "testing" me? Let's see if I don't provide the kind of sl that K needs what will she do? Will she become a shrew? Will she cheat? Will she put up with it indefinately? Right now, my boss, whose W left him makes daily offers to be my sex slave, says what a lucky man H is etc...if I took him up on it (failed the test) would H's testing be the cause? Would my bosss's?Now, I realize that H isn't necessariy testing me but you see the point.
Bf, despite the limitations of cyberspace, if I were there with you we would go do "galpal" type hanging out. You mentioned San Francisco - we would walk around Chinatown, get some seafood somewhere, have several bottles of California wine, see a funny movie or go listen to a band play somewhere and dance and then, I would pat you on the head, send you to bed and in the morning wake you early to go work out whether we were hung over or not.
Since I'm not there just know that any of the ladies on this thread would be happy to try to comfort you in our own idiosyncratic way but the real comfort will come from honest evaluation (not self flaggelation),acceptance of yourself and ex for each of your failings, time and moving in a positive direction with a positive outlook and lessons learned.
Bf, did you ever just let W be herself and be yourself in return? Did you show yourself to her? Have you ever met a woman where it felt like that? Or did that feel too much like friendship to you? (For reference, I have had to ask myself similar questions. Ex-H and I had a lot of intensity and drama. Current H and I are pretty dramaless - it used to scare me a lot. Now I recognize that most would consider that a good thing). Bf, spend whatever time in your cave you must, work out/scream out whatever frustrations you must then re-engage with your life and strive to just be who you are and see what happens.
Re BF In addition to that I clearly said during Reconcil 'contact OM again. DONE'.
Some women like a test/drama, the bigger the man the bigger the test. What do you think.
BF'X Everday I lay in the bottom of my shower and cry......" More drama?
Gonna go back to cave for a bit. BF, I have mine (cave) too.
I detest talking about me. former post of yours BF but that reciprocity is in order Well, talk away BF. No one likes to be given rewards (good advice on the forum in this case) all the time. We need to give rewards (advice) too. Sometimes it is easier to see and react to others situations than our own.
I am upon much introspection, A player as LFL said. Play with my careers, play with my finances (I am buying a house in this bubble of CA, gambling almost all on another rise. No OG Ill never do interest only unless I am the lender.) play with my life. This general state of being/attitude is what broke x.
Ill not ask any woman to deal with that again, unless or untill that changes about myself. I have no need to change it, as there is only me to worry about. I did change it quite a bit once in many ways. It leaks out. The efforts were not enough/or appreciated.
Ah...BF...you're making me sad. Seems I am not alone. You clearly have an effect on women, from your ex crying at the bottom of the shower, to us cyber-chicks, wanting to reach out and give you a big old hug to ease your pain. That's not a Player BF. That's a sensitive but strong guy. You have A LOT to offer a lucky woman. Don't forget it! (Geez, I feel like I'm talking to Chrome now). So you need to work on your approach a little, who doesn't. No one is perfect. Your self-esteem seems to have been really damaged by this mess (or was it always a mess...self-fulfilling prophecy?...hmmmm) . It almost sounds like you just can't do it anymore. Your efforts aren't enough. F-this. Will never remarry. Ok. Personal choice. But don't make that decision based on "I won't subject another woman to me" attitude. Yuck BF! You know that's an attraction killer and will come out subconsciously in your interactions with future women for sure. Need to get a handle on that one. But I think you know that already. Ok, enough. I hope you are well. Don't be a stranger.
Quote: about your SO. I can't say I agree on the leaving the door open that Lil mentioned
Hmmm... maybe you have me mixed up with someone else. I don't recall ever commenting on bf's situation. Unless I posted during one of my blackouts...
blackfoot, how are you today? My bf's ex was a WAW... reading your posts really gives me insight into the pain he is still carrying... I'm sorry you're hurting so much.
Sorry Lil - somebody made that comment. I've been in lurkage - not exactly current. Someone was responding to Bf's sadness in the "don't let her be the one who got away" frame. I was just saying that she isn't the one who got away she is the one who chose to go away. Never say never but I'm just saying - right now Bf regroup, go ahead and analyze but don't rewrite history or allow sadness/regret to color things. Bf and exW may yet have some things to talk about but not until each knows who they are and what happened. Anyway Lil, sorry if I misattributed.
Hey BlackFoot, there is young fellow in desperate need over on the "I Need help for my martial problems board. I think your ideas and insight could be of use to him. How about taking a look and give him one of your insights???
