QUESTION THOUGH: it bothers her when I express my feelings of loving her and hoping for reconciliation. Should I stop expressing my love for her and my hope of reconciliation and forgiveness and just continue SHOWING her how I feel and showing her that I am making obvious positive changes in my live to be a better person, father, and (hopefully) husband?
It bothers her when you do this because it does not validate HER position of the marriage being over. It's like you're arguing with her about her feelings and through your ILY's and other things you say, you're putting pressure on her to change her mind/heart and she resents that deeply right now. Not only did you destroy your marriage (in her mind), but now you're trying to manipulate her back into the ruins. Of course that's not what the reality of the situation is, but from her perspective it may very well be. Every time you say ILY, a hundred things go through her mind from "This mf-er is trying to make this go away" to "Ok so then why did you do this to me" or "Did you say that to her too?" and "I don't believe you anymore" etc, etc, etc.
You see, right now, things that are expressions of heartfelt love and remorse to you are seen in a totally different light by her. It may not always be that way.
It is said around here a lot that some things only need to be said once, and to keep bringing them up is counterproductive. Right now there are some things that your W is probably VERY clear about, like you say you love her and you want to make this work. She may not need to hear that again for awhile, but I think she will know it. As for the "I'm sorry" part, continue to do that when it's appropriate and maybe let the other stuff be reflected by your actions. Work on those things that you need to improve and look hard at what made you stray (btw, did you post why you think it happened yet?).
Time. It's all about time right now, and that is the single most difficult thing to accept where you are at right now because time also brings uncertainty but you just need to accept that too.
QUESTION THOUGH: it bothers her when I express my feelings of loving her and hoping for reconciliation. Should I stop expressing my love for her and my hope of reconciliation and forgiveness and just continue SHOWING her how I feel and showing her that I am making obvious positive changes in my live to be a better person, father, and (hopefully) husband?
Tom, it bothers her not because it is not the attractive solution to her TODAY. This does not mean that she may not feel differently down the road but at this very moment she wants as far away from you and the pain that she feels around you. Hell when I went through it, I physically jumped on a plane and went 1200 miles away from my H. That's how badly I HAD to get away. FWIW, I did end up leaving my H and filing for D...but I did give him every opportunity to try and change his ways (it was more than just one oops, it was 15yrs of OOPS so that is a difference in our sitches).
The key is here is the reason why you got yourself in the A to begin with...something lacking in you, the M, in your needs? This is where you need to begin your journey. All you can do for her is to show consistency in your changes as you delve into yourself here for self-reflection. That will be the key to her when you show remorse. Time can heal the pain but she needs the space from you also to let her process these feelings.
Tom, it may have been good to tell your W once now that you love her more than anything and you want to reconcile. Now that you have done that, though, you need to be aware that repeating that process will NOT help you.
Your W is repulsed by you right now. The more you pursue her and tell her you love her, the more disgusted she will become. When we talk about giving her space, that means emotional space -- it means not pressuring her to reconcile.
As far as her threat to divorce you, keep in mind that a divorce does not happen instantaneously. Your W will cool down and deal with a lot of her hurt and anger by then if you allow her to and don't feed her hurt and anger through your own behavior. Finally, keep in mind that a D isn't necessarily the end of the road. There are a lot of stories from couples who have gotten a D and then realized what they had lost and remarried.
Patience is the most difficult thing for all of us on these boards, because we're in pain and we want healing, but it is the most important tool that you have to get what you want.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Our M was fertile ground for my A. I was weak and was not honest with my wife about my thoughts & feelings for fear that she would just make the decision to end our marriage. We have been together for 7 years and most of that has been filled with strife and blame. My W frequently brought up the Big D (even before my PA) even though we love each other dearly. My sister said it best, she said, "You two obviously love each other intensely, otherwise you wouldn't have kept trying to work it out."
We became pregnant with our S (2nd child) during a time that we were having VERY infrequent relations. During the first 3-4 months into the pregnancy, my W kept saying that she thought it was terrible that we were pregnant again without having smoothed out our relationship and that she regretted it.
Of course I felt awful with the revelation of her feelings and the distance that persisted between us emotionally. This is when I made the awful choice for the affair, which was over as quickly as it started. My thoughts have become more clear with reflection. I felt shut out, pushed away, not heard, criticized, not valued, ignored, unloved, etc. I had always had the feeling that my W was one foot in, one foot out in our marriage. As I stated, the D word was frequently brought up by her in response to our difficulties. No excuses, no justification, though. None of my ill feelings gave me the right to do what I did. My feelings just helped put our already struggling M on a slippery slope to nowhere.
You see, I am certainly to blame for half of the problems in our marriage. I am by no means perfect. Unortunately, my W saw my contribution to our troubles as more like 99%. And that was PRIOR to this fiasco.
Regardless, I understand that I need to keep apologizing for my mistake, keep expressing that I am open to talking and reconciling, keep loving our children, and keep working on me to insure I do not make this type of mistake again.
Thanks for reading. Again, any and all direction, thoughts, and prayers are greatly appreciated.
Ok Tom, this is getting somewhere. So you probably think that this is your W's escape route, huh? She's been bantering about with the D word for awhile and now she's got her ticket out via this affair. I don't know that it's far from what may be true, but one thing to think about is that your A, while TOTALLY reprehensible, also served as a jolt to her that YOU were not happy any more than she was. She may have SAID she wanted to end the marriage, but you actually did something. Who knows how that plays out in her head. This idea that there were deep issues in your marriage may hurt OR help. I know in my sitch many people comment on how fast I came to the conclusion that I needed to change myself and how quickly I found this site, the books, etc. I was able to do that because I could clearly see what was wrong in my marriage, especially MY part of the problems and I immediately acted to rectify them to the best of my ability. I am going to be doing that for the rest of my life now that I am aware of the process. For you, maybe you can just list the issues that caused all the prior problems in your M. List all the things that prompted your W to use the D word. How were you talking? What was said? What was going on in your lives? How did YOU contribute to all that? If you start this process of figuring out what wend wrong, you will be on your way to figuring out what could go right in the future.
"I'm working on my marriage, but it still isn't working."
Question: Michele, after reading your books (Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting and Getting Through to the Man You Love), I have one question: The underlying assumption of all three books is that you DO love your spouse. I am in a situation in which I don't really love my spouse, and actually often don't like or respect him. Yet he is a good father, and our children are incredibly devoted to our little family. I definitely believe that a divorce would be the best thing for ME (and probably for him), but the worst thing for my children. It's been hard for me to try to divorce bust because I can't seem to get over the hump of feeling I'm knocking myself out to work on something I don't really want, namely, staying married to my husband. Does this mean mine is just one of the marriages that can't be saved? Most of the posts I read on the boards seem to be from people who WANT their spouses. Any comments would be appreciated, and I'm sure would be enlightening to many on the board, because I've heard from many about to be Walkaway Wife's who feel the same way I do -- little, if any, love or respect for our spouses, and little, if any, desire to be married to them. Thank you. Jenny
ANSWER Dear Jenny, You ask an interesting question and I hope my response will be helpful.
First, I want you to know that your assumption that my books presuppose love for one’s spouse is completely incorrect. My books presuppose a commitment to working on one’s marriage. It is absolutely true that when you love your spouse, it makes going through the hard times more palatable and sharing the good times more enjoyable. No question about it. But I don’t assume people reading the books love their spouses.
I know you won’t like what I’m about to say, but I can tell from your post that you have never really committed to working on your marriage. Yes, I know you’ve had a telephone consultation and some counseling. But that doth not commitment make. Too many people say they’re working on their marriages when they drag their bodies to therapy or talk to some sort of expert. That’s not even scratching the surface. Working on your marriage means making the decision to be there in spirit, not necessarily to be head over heels in love when you start, but to invest yourself fully.
Working on your marriage means giving of yourself completely, putting your spouse’s needs before your own- and vise versa. It means quitting the game of keeping score. It means forgiving and letting go. Working on your marriage means focusing on people’s strengths and downplaying their shortcomings. It means not expecting to have all or even the majority of your needs satisfied by one person. It means vowing to have a full and satisfying life of your own so that you don’t blame your spouse unfairly about your unhappiness. It means appreciating the little things and overlooking life’s annoyances. It means recognizing that no one, not even you or me, is perfect.
I’m not sure why I think this, but I have a distinct feeling that you are holding on to resentments from the past. (I don’t even know you but the feeling is there nonetheless). It seems to me, that your current willingness to stay is built on guilt and self-sacrifice rather than any pleasure derived from the gift you would be giving your children and “your little family” aand as a result, yourself. As long as you look at staying through the eyes of resentment, you will not be able to fully immerse yourself in what you need to do to make your family truly work.
Unfortunately, no one, not your parents, friends, family, therapist, clergy or me, can make the decision to have a good, healthy family for you. Only you can make that choice. You have been sitting on the fence- staying but holding back. (Maybe that's why you chose Paradox as your username.) This won’t get you where you need to go. I can promise you that. Make a decision. Own your decision. Stop fooling yourself into thinking you’re working on things when you're not. If you feel you can’t forgive and start fresh, take ownership of that. Go. However, you know my first choice. But in the end, that doesn’t really matter. Yours is the choice that matters. If you choose marriage, the rest is relatively easy. You decide. Love is a decision. Michele
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
I just found out that my W has been in contact with her old flame. This OM is someone she went to see a couple of months before we became pregnant. I told her I did not want her to go see OM but she looked me right square in the eyes and said I need to go. When she got back I told her I was upset and I asked her again why she needed to go to see OM. She responded with, "I don't know." She did tell me she gave him our phone # and got his. I asked her to throw it away for the sake of our marriage. She said she would think about it. I forgave her and let it go. We got past that. She did NOT throw it away. And, even if she had, she has friends who know how to get ahold of OM. Some friends! Some clearly were NOT for our marriage and worked to undermine it at every opportunity. Sad.
Well, last night I found out the "why" regarding seeing the OM. She told me that she went because we were not doing well and she wanted to go see if there was a "spark" still and she told me last night that there was. A vastly different story from my W who claims she always told me the truth. My sister told me that that is cheating in mind and spirit. I can't say that I disagree.
Last night while we were talking, I heard her tapping away on the computer. She also needed to "click off" the other line when I called. I asked her what she was typing and she said nothing at first, but then said she was responding to an e-mail. She said the person to whom she was e-mailing was none of my business; that she was on her private time. I also asked her who she needed to "click off" with on the other line and she lied saying it was her brother. I am seeing HER deceit now for the first time. It was OM, as was the e-mail. My W often went out with her friends and would tell me she would be home at a certain time. She would just show up at home 2-3 hours later without even a phone call. I chalked it up to her just being inconsiderate of me worried feelings. It appears that it may have been more deliberate than that.
I asked her, since she was insisting on honesty from me and that she insisted our marriage was over, why she was being so secretive whom she was talking with and e-mailing? I had a strong feeling it was OM and she finally decided to tell me they had been in contact.
I understand that she has a right to do as she wishes, and I understand that she is acting out of anger, but running into the arms of a man who repeatedly (her words) cheated on her in order to hurt me and to NOT deal with her own pain is the WRONG way to go. We have 2 beautiful children and I am concerned with her behavior and choices while she is so ANGRY and not being able to see past that. She also drinks when she's angry and her judgment is NOT good.
I know that I felt awful the moment I cheated and have felt awful since. I do believe that her response now is rooted in anger and that she is going to be hurt and our children will be hurt, as well, because, again, her actions right now are driven by anger alone. Two awful wrongs do NOT make a right.
Unfortunately, I fear that her anger is going to harm our children, by dragging them into a situation designed to hurt me. This A is my mistake alone and I am reaping the results in a HUGE way.
I am working hard to be strong for me and our children.
I do believe that she believes that D is our ONLY option right now. That makes me so hurt and sad, but I will keep my heart open to her. I have a speck of hope.
I am a little confused. Did SHE have an A too? You said it was someone she went to see a few months before she got pregnant. While you were married? Your sister is right. Just because you don't physically cheat, does not mean you are not cheating. It's called an emotional affair (EA) and can be just as harmful, if not MORE harmful in some cases than a physical affair (PA). Please clarify.
I didn't look at it that way at the time. I know I did NOT approve of her going to see her ex, but she went anyway, I suppose as a way of showing me that she will do what she wants regardless of our marriage, my feelings and/or what I say.
In retrospect, I see that it WAS an affair of the mind, heart and spirit, if not the body. Regardless, I forgave her about that back then and didn't really think about it until this new revelation of her PLANS to have her own affair well before we have even filed for D, and in front of our children NO LESS!
She intends to have this OM stay in our home before I bring our D back and intends to lie to our D about who this OM is. OMG, that is ruthless, cold and hurtful to our innocent child + our 6 month old who will be in the house with the whole time. Talk about throwing your relationship with your children under the bus.
Additionally, I work in an office that knows my W well and has known her for years. The rumor I have heard recently is that SHE has been out having A's for a long time. That makes sense in looking back since she often used relations as a reward or punishment, as she saw fit. I just never questioned her about where she was going or why she was regularly 2-3 late returning home when she went out with friends in the evening. I never checked up on her either. I trusted her. I suppose that would not have been such a bad idea, but I was home with our child/children while she was out actin single and childless.
I'd like to believe there is nothing to the rumor, but when the sh*t hits the fan and she was instantly in contact with her old flame from 10 years ago, that leads me to believe I was deaf, dumb and blind with regard to who she really is and what she was doing while we were married. My bad.
In her mind she gave 110% to our marriage and I did not. In her mind, I was 99% of our problem. If I would just fix me everything would be great.
My reality is: I always felf she NEVER fully committed to our M from the beginning. She always seemed one foot in and one foot out and ready to bail as a FIRST option.
She brought up divorce at least a dozen times during our marriage. She asked me to move out at least 1/2 a dozen times. This makes sense, since I was the source of 99% of our marital problems and her unhappiness. I am unclear about how THAT constitues 110% effort to make our marriage blissful. ...or am I missing something?
Again, I am no saint, but I worked VERY hard to make my marriage successful and to change my behavior towards my W and my communication style with her. I have been very successful in making those changes. But, the more I changed my view of the world and learned to behave much better in our M, the more I noticed that she was unhappy in our M plus the threat of D or being asked to move out was always hanging over my head.
I was emotionally beaten, weak, felt "not good enough", criticized, worthless, etc. Our marriage was a battlefield, fertile ground for my A. NOT an excuse, it's just that the downward slope that our M existed on was "greased" by my A.
