GEL I've also been avoiding commenting too much on this but Stigmata and many others are on target here. When I was separated and "exploring my options" I ran across this AFF website. I can tell you that the photos on there alone were enough to send me off of there in about 1 minute. That site is COMPLETELY about F-ing with no strings attached. The fact that your H was on that site for 3 YEARS, all the while in MC, blah blah. He's is lying through his teeth about not hooking up with people. I suggest you talk to this MC asap and get her take on his lies. I know you like the MC so see what she has to say. I'm really sorry you are having to deal with all of this. But don't set yourself up to take more of his BS. He does it because he can get away with it. Don't let him.
1) I gave opportunity for my H to tell me the truth and come clean...I knew things that I did not tell him. I'd checked cell records, installed spyware on his computer...etc. I WANTED HIM TO COME CLEAN! I DID NOT tell him I had done those things. I kept quiet about many things for a while. I KNEW MUCH of the truth...saw emails etc. etc. AND...even though what he did was wrong..I wanted to give him opportunity to fess up tell me all...and thereby help to REBUILD trust. Just thoughts. I also HAD To know to what degree it all went...because it MAY NOT have gone as far as my wild imagination might think it had. And it would have forever made me wonder and plagued me.
Getting all the facts helped me be in a position to deal with it..him deal with it...and in time, put it to rest...and hopefully come to a place of trust after much ...change..
2) What is his past with marriages? You don't have to tell me...but those are things to consider. People have to make MAJOR changes in order not to repeat the past.
3) Mr. Gel is sorry now because he was caught. Don't tell all in your anger about it.
4) You will have to decide this is a matter of his character or if he just jumped WAY off the deep end, acting in a way that is NOT HIM! And there are BOTH of those possibilities.
5) Does he have a standard he lives his life by? FAith in God, the Bible...etc. If so, that will make him want to shape up MORE than even a wife's boundaries...
My heart goes out to you, dear GEL. It is a difficult time, I know. But at the same time changes can be made in both of you that down the road will bring you to a better place.
I thought about you last night. I wanted to respond to you, but didn’t know what to say. I have been thinking about you today, and I think I fall on the side of the hardliners.
What your H has done is unspeakable. My gut says that this is not it, there is more. All those night shifts and days without you around – he certainly had the opportunity. I want to believe him that it never went further, but I can’t.
His behavior is compulsive, and I believe he has gone to great lengths to hide it. You said that you have looked at his internet history and found nothing before. Clearly, he is an expert at hiding his tracks.
There are two things that scare me about your situation. I agree with everyone that your strengths (your positivity, your patience, your empathy) are your weaknesses here. Your H seems to be aware of this, and has been stringing you along. How long have you guys been in MC? 2 F’ing years? WHAT the F?
The second thing – and this is what is really frightening to me - is that he is on his fourth marriage. THREE women before you (whatever their culpabilities) left because he was not willing to endure the pain of changing or growing.
GEL, I understand that you are not at the point where you are willing to end it. I agree with Stigmata that unless you get yourself to that point, he will continue to placate you just enough to keep you around, and he will continue to do what he is doing.
I think now is not the time to talk or discuss or negotiate or strategize with him. First, you need complete disclosure. Hire a professional if you have to, but find out everything. Take your time. Take care of yourself. If you must, kick him out for a week or a month. Let him stew. Try to centre yourself, learn as much as you can and figure out where you want to go. I am not saying that you should end it now, but I am saying that you should call a timeout and get your bearings.
Just my thoughts and I say them with a heavy heart and with concern for you. Stay strong, A. (((Hugs)))
I know that you don't want to throw away your M. You have worked so hard, you are thinking of Ian and you love your H. At least the H that you thought he was. Stig and nicegal are voices of experience. I think they offered some good thought/suggestions.
I looked at the site. I had never seen it. I nearly vomited. I had no idea how graphic it was from the moment you enter. All I did was look in my "local area" and all I saw was a bunch of people's private parts and what sex of people they were looking to hook up with. Gel, you are one very strong woman and I respect whatever you feel you need to do. I don't consider myself a prude but I consider this site an affront to marriages, healthy relationships and the intimacy of sexuality. Are so many people so pathetic and shallow that this passes for a "good time"?
I remember one time you or IHJ saying to your H "you have no idea how good it could be between us." Your H had no idea or he wouldn't have done such a stupid thing. Whether he met up with people or not he made himself available and made sure to dangle the carrot of sex (barren sl, indeed). He needs to be the one selling you on "you have no idea how good it could be." A lame list of "I might like, sorta always did want, to try these things XXX" smack to me of placating. I would need to ask -why the h*ll would I want to do any of that stuff with you? I don't know who you are."
Gel - please take care of yourself. Eat well, exercise, spend time with friends, hug Ian until he begs for mercy. Stop fixing. Let your H fix. Then you determine what fixed would look like.
I am so very sorry this has happened to you. This is what happened to me with my XH, except it was online porn and phone sex. There were also memberships in the adult membership communities. This wasn't a crazy one-time drunk cybersex session or a very healthy interest in porn. It was a sexually self-soothing that he was dependent upon.
I was afraid this might be going on with your H because of some other things that have happened, and I'm very sorry that it has turned out to be the case.
I believe that your H has his own private sex life, his own little world. You have never been a part of it. It has nothing to do with you. It is not because of a lack in you, it is not to hurt you. I would bet that he has had problems with using perhaps excessive masturbation and porn to self-soothe since he was a child. He probably hates himself for it.
He will not be honest with you. Cold turkey is not going to last long with a lifelong habit and it will not change the underlying problems. Prepare yourself in case you come to realize that you have barely touched the tip of the iceberg on this problem. Given the minimum length it has gone on and his invitations to women, I would be very skeptical that he has not met some. Local phone sex calls and chatting will not show up on your bills. A Tracphone can be had for cheaped with minutes paid for in cash. He could have a separate credit card with the bill sent elsewhere. He can get a keytracker to figure out your password for the keytracker and then enable and disable your tracking software to convince you that he is innocent. He can get a phone that goes on the internet so that there is no way for you to track his activity. He can switch to strip clubs at lunchtime. He can hide his porn in a $20/month storage unit. There is no end to the possibilities. You cannot effectively police him.
This private guilt ridden sex world that I think is very very likely probably predates any relationship with a woman and has always been a barrier to successful intimacy. Lying and hiding it has become so natural to him that he likely never thinks about it, unless forced to. For instance, when you try to improve your sexual R with him, it makes him look himself in the face and hate what he sees. So, he pays lipservice to you to get away from that vision as quickly as possible.
If you stay in this R, it will be a long term problem that will arise again almost certainly. Also, it will likely arise again in a more extreme form. Getting past it will take years of work. YEARS. Five, ten. He is crippled at the core in terms of his ability to sustain an intimate relationship with a partner. His emotional growth has probably been stunted from the first time he felt guilty for using masturbation to escape his problem.
I know how much you want to believe the best of the situation. But please please please, keep your eyes open and take good care of yourself. This probably reaches back further than you think and extends further in your current life that you will ever know. The future betrayals will hurt even worse until they become life-numbing, which is worse than the pain.
Unless he does something pretty extreme, like decides without any prompting to check into an inpatient program, I hope you will very seriously consider stepping away from the marriage. For your son's sake, you need to treat yourself and him better than staying with someone currently incapable of sustaining a mature committed full relationship.
Anyway, with respect to his list, that is a big step. I thought your point about him putting you into the position of having to speak up when you are uncomfortable was excellent. You are doing much better on that score than I did in my old M. I was also the one left in charge by default. But, I couldn't step up and talk about it (except in the fairly safe context of counseling, and then only in limited ways). I was silenced by my own fears and insecurities. I really admire your strength and the love you have that would allow you to get past that yourself. I'm sure that whether you stick with this M for the long haul or wind up elsewhere, your strength and lovingness will serve you well. And, if you stay, it will be a very long haul with very risky outcomes -- much more than the one month per year of marriage Michelle talks about. That is for marriages in which both partners were reasonably fully present for at least part of the marriage. Your H, I truly believe, has always kept a large portion of himself outside the marriage in his own private sex world. Like recovering alcoholics, neither of you know who he will be and what he will want if he successfully integrated this part of himself into a person who is capable of sustaining true intimacy.
I worked for 6 years after my discovery of XH's actions, and would likely have worked longer. But, he dropped the bomb, thankfully. I can now see how little progress was made in that 6 years and how pointless it was for me. For, XH did not have the capacity to be the partner that I wanted. Rather, I was slotted into the role of asexual roommate and mother.
Unless this is a major major crises that causes him to take extreme action and clear followthrough, I'd expect little more than more of the same from him in the future.
So, again, right now, quit thinking about being a good wife and a good mother. Ask yourself honestly if what you want in a partner and lifemate is even a possibility for your intimacy-crippled H. And, just take extremely good care of yourself. You'll need your reserves x a million. God I wish I could prevent your pain, I know the devestation too well.
Hi comrade, I recognize the voice of experience. That would be shared experience with me, and now, I fear GEL.
I did not think your words harsh, but passionate driven by the pain you fear for GEL, and compassionate because you want to do all you can to help and you know how hard it is to "get it" and this early stage in the realization of what has been going on.
I've been thinking and thinking and thinking about you. I wasn't going to write anything because I had a very personal and mind numbing reaction to your story. I felt that if I said anything, I would just be projecting my own feelings onto your sitch, and I didn't want to do that.
I will offer up to you a few observations.
Given that your H has been doing this since you got married, I see him using you as a cover for his addiction. Yes, addiction. LDs are NOTORIOUS for avoiding intimacy, we know this... but your H never established it with you. It may have seemed/felt that way at some point... but as a drunk will say anything for a drink, a user will say anything for a fix, so will a sex addict who needs cover for his... whatever it is.
By you allowing him to stay in your home, you will now be responsible, sole judge and jury, for whatever progress he does or doesn't make. The entire burden of the R lays squarely with you, once again. You say he has things to prove to you... but he knows you are watching. Desperate times call for desperate measures. kwis?
You say he has broken your trust. Honey, there was NEVER trust there to begin with. Ever.
I understand your concern for your son. I have greater concern for your son by you leaving this... person... in your home. No, I don't necessarily think he would harm your son, that is not what I am implying. But your son is young, and this will only continue to get harder for him the next time something happens. And it will, because he has no real motivation to change... he's been caught. He'll either go further underground, or he'll change for as long as he needs to. This will resurface because he did not make the move to change until you lowered the boom. External motivation vs. internal motivation.
You of course need to speak with your MC... but keep in mind that the entire purpose of an MC is to save a marriage, and they will approach this issue with that frame of mind. I'd call an addiction counselor, maybe even give one of the counselors on this board a call... or better yet... I'd hunt up Schnarch himself... my advice to you is to definitely seek a second opinion... not because your MC is not adequate, but simply for another take on the sitch.
My heart goes out to you, lovely lady. One day you will realize in your heart that no matter how much you want to, you cannot save this marriage by yourself... and truly, that's what you've been in for the last three years... a marriage by yourself.
Sorry for the bluntness. Having said all this, do what YOU need to do and I will give you all the support I can muster.
I think Stigmata has described your H perfectly, at least frm the little I know of him. But the puzzle pieces now seem to fit. If you say you have seen remorse in your husband, then I believe you. What I recall reading of you past did not convince me of such.
My step-mom’s son is a sociopath, at least as well as we can determine. And he DOES show real remorse and concern. He is so nice and so caring and so willing to help others that it just drips out of him. But after he has stolen from someone and he apologize in what seems to be the most sincere and feeling way, he is off to his next con job.
So how can one really know if a sociopath is exhibiting remorse? I have no clue, except to judge them by their history. If you are fine with his history, then all should be well. I just don’t read it like you.
One other thing. I see some here still referring to your H as LD. I don’t think there is anything LD about him, he’s just LD with whomever is his wife at the moment. He is HD with all the other women he is chasing.
I did not think your words harsh, but passionate driven by the pain you fear for GEL, and compassionate because you want to do all you can to help and you know how hard it is to "get it" and this early stage in the realization of what has been going on.
Keep taking care of yourself, Oldtimer
-- Old Timer. I am sorry you had to endure the pain from someone who refuses to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions...and have enough willpower and respect for themselves and others to break an damaging addiction.
Thank you sincerely for understanding what I was trying to do; ie, help GEL tackle this problem without getting blindsided. and for your well wishes.
I am back posting this because I really feel remorse for being so blunt. My laser sight is squarely focused on GEL's H for disrespecting such an obviously fantastic, caring, loving, and responsible lady. He is my target. He has had more than enough chances. He is the one who damned well better be doing backflips to change his ways/come correct. An M can't be sustained on habitual lies. She should be doing nothing more from this point forward IMO...except focus solely on herself, Ian, and her own happiness. Now he can bust his azz to try and save his M; she deserves an R vacation for a while.
Personally, I utterly envy the Ms out there whose Fs are like GEL, Karen, Corri, HP, LFL, landica, hap, chrissy...I know I'm forgetting someone here but you too; all the Fs here who tried/are trying to work things out on this site as will as in C, IC, MC. Lucky M ba$tards.
I am here alone on this forum. Adrift in a tiny dinghy in the middle of the R Pacific...with no land or ship in sight. Not a hint of R discussion, therapy...nothing. Baking in the sun. No water or food. Starving and dying of thirst. Cracked lips and leathered skin. I guess 7 years of my life and unshakeable fidelity, love, and commitment isn't worth very much after all.
GEL, if you are reading this, I hope you understand that your role in trying to "fix" your R is on permanent hiatus. I was harsh on your H, yes, but he deserves more than my harsh words IMO. This is not to say he is not a great person in his own right. If he were not, you wouldn't have tried so darn hard to get your R on the right track. He needs help. He needs to unload everything and leave it up to you whether you think this is all worth it or not. He has to take that chance. Harley-type radical honesty has saved many an seemingly hopeless M/R.
Why? Because it takes ballz. And confessing all of your sins--fully knowing it could be the end of your R with the person you love--builds immense respect in that person for your guts to be willing to lose everything via your confessions. That's being a real man.
But he has to step up to the plate and prove his worth as an H, a man, and an human being. You had a meltdown a few weeks ago and now this is an even bigger one. He needs to recognize his immature, selfish, irresponsible actions are dismantling your well-being. He needs to be a real man and do ALL the work from this point forward. Not remorseful 11th-hour "I can change," "what if we did x-y-z?" solutions for being caught red-handed again. You're done trying. You have already given the mother of all efforts.
Don't tear yourself apart over this. Pray about it, if you believe in a higher power. Ask for your higher power to protect you, Ian, and help show you the way to the right resolution. Put all of this crap on his shoulders and earnestly ask for his help. Believe me, when you decide to put all of your problems in the hands of your God to deal with...it's like a load being lifted. And things start to work themselves out, they really do. Even The Bible says worry is sin. Why? Because it is nonproductive. It does nothing but cause ulcers out of nothingness. Nothing gets fixed via incessant worry.
I just wanted you to prepare yourself and give yourself strength. We all need to do this for every worrisome situation. Love. Financial. Health. Etc.
"What is the worst possible outcome I can expect from this investment?"
"What is the worst possible outcome I could discover via my SO's dishonesty?"
"What would be the worst possible outcome from my CAT scan after all the other tests indicate a slight chance of an unusual growth in my brain?"
Once you deal with this square on. Face it. Look at it. Acknowledge it without all of the amped-out emotions...then you can rationalize what your response would be...without experiencing the massive pain and sudden shock of the thing as it occurs in real time as the potential results blindside you.
Worst Case Scenario. Once you understand that, hell yes, you will survive the worst case scenario via planned course of action, then anything less than worst case is soooo much easier to deal with. You're working backwards from total disaster and you are damned well not gonna be surprised/caught offguard anymore. And have a game plan for any situation that may result.
So step back GEL. Take a time out to look at the thing that would scare you most and let your H do all the yeoman's work to prove he is worthy to be your man and a role model for little Ian. No more solutions from you. No more "fixing." He has a lot of work to do IMO so he'd better roll up his sleeves.
But he HAS to be punished. There HAVE to be consequences or he will think he can walk all over you if he Fs up again. It's like he's now wincing, waiting for the big painful blow to come (which is you and Ian leaving or him being forced to leave for an uncertain period of time IMO). And if the blow is a lot less than he expected? Ie, a day or 2 of yelling followed by "lists" of fix-its, then he's gonna open one of his squinting eyes...look around, and say to himself...hmmm, hey, that wasn't so bad. Whew. Dodged another bullet. Mental note to self in case I really F up again. Lucky me.
Like you said, square one. He needs to woo you again and seek help or he will just drag you and Ian downn into his world of deceit, lies, noncommunication, and conflict avoidances.
I'm pullin' for you GEL. It's not hopeless at this point. But you deserve better treatment or that man is going to lose the best thing that ever happened to him.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I am taking a break from this website for awhile. I do appreciate everyone's feedback. Right now though I'm in emotional overload....and "I" have to figure out what's best for me and my S.
This would be much easier if I did't LOVE my H but I do, and THAT is why I've already stated this is his LAST opportunity to step up and work with me. Many of you may not agree with this...you don't have to; it's what I have to do to feel I've done everything I can. I have to follow my instincts. My instincts right now (which rarely lead me astray) are telling me....not to give in, not right now.
Guys I'm already aware he's never been honest with me, that's glaringly obvious...I'd have to be a fool not to see that. When I say he's blown the trust...I mean my trust, in him. If somehow that trust cannot be eventually regained then this M cannot be saved, and I will be the 1st to admit that.
I also know that people who go to a website like adultfriendfinder.....have problems, BIG freakin issues. Issues "I" cannot solve, he has to. Issues that will take intense one on one counseling. I also don't buy what he says his "intentions" were regarding that website....don't buy it for a minute guys.
Everyone....my eyes are wide open here. Right now I am taking things one day at a time on how "I" feel....I'm listening to my instincts, not listening to those in the past has been to my detriment.
I am not even going to try to attempt to keep this M together for my S. I feel like there are those of you out there (those who say "You have to love yourself first") who don't see my drawing a boundary as doing just that. I'm not playing here guys....if I find out ONE more lie....he is GONE....he will come home and find his bags packed...because I'm not going to go anywhere....he is. I love myself too much to allow him to continue to treat me and our M in this manner.
I am continuing to track his computer activity, I am tracking his cell phone activity, I am tracking credit card activity (which he doesn't know), I am tracking bank account activity. I feel like a heel doing this, but I'm doing it for my own sanity right now.....sounds crazy I know, but right now these things coming up clear day by day are going to be the only way he can begin to rebuild trust in me.....and that's going to take A LONG TIME.
I told him this morning on my way out the door that I'm scared to death to leave him alone anymore because I don't trust him....no matter how hard I try to occupy my mind it still wonders what he's up to. I was scared to leave the house for 30 minutes yesterday to run to the store because I was afraid to leave the man alone....and that is ludicrous.
Now...THAT'S STUPID! I know that, I cannot control what he does/doesn't do....but I also know that if this feeling of anxiety doesn't ebb away and I continue to feel this way then my instincts are telling me something I need to listen to. Right now I'm really, really hurting....and it's not the time for me to do something rash.
I'm not condoning one damned thing he did, I'm not buying his excuses either. All I know right now is that I've talked with him face to face....something you guys haven't done. I know when he's showing remorse for his actions and when he's saying things to smooth the situation over.
I have to listen to my gut guys. I haven't listened to my instincts in the past and I've paid for it.
