Actually....it was his idea to see our MC on his own about just this problem when I asked him why he does it. I didn't suggest it in any way...he did. He also picked up the phone, called her office and asked for her 1st cancellation next week. Not tooting his horn right now, just letting you know something he has done that is pro-active.
He wants to see her on his own about this problem and continue our MC as well.
He also said he felt I was right in stating that we needed to do things earlier in the evening rather than waiting until bedtime...but that the reason we did do that was just as much his doing as mine.
Honeypot....right now, I haven't asked for that "what are you going to do about this"....last night after we finished talking I was simply too tired. However, this will be continued tonight and tonight is when I do plan on asking him what HE intends to do.
My H came to me this evening with a list of things he wants to do/try with me. Things that in the past I would absolutely never have even thought crossed his mind...since he'd been playing Mr. Innocent with me.
I'm not going to go into detail on this list with you. There's truly nothing much that I believe would shock any of you...it's not like it involves unusual fetishes or anything.
Towards the bottom of the list he wrote....make sure whatever we do is done before bedtime.
I read the list over, asked a few questions to clarify some things and then asked him why he couldn't just ask me (or do these things to me)? His response was "I just can't seem to get these out when I want to....I'm much more comfortable if you ask, or you start it."
I thought about it for a few moments and responded "do you realize I'm no more "comfortable" asking for these things than you are? It's just that you constantly put ME in the position to dictate what we do/don't do?" He looked at me and said he didn't see it that way, which kind of stunned me....I thought it would be obvious.
Anyway....as I said I read the list and told him I had no problem with anything he'd listed. Some of the things I have never tried at all...some I have, but I told him.....if these were things he wanted to try I'm completely open to the ideas. FWIW...absolutely nothing included a 3rd person or a stranger for either of us....IMPO, most of it would be simply considered exploration of the other person....nothing really unusual.
He also asked that we go to the adult toy-store together, which as you know...we've talked about before.
Anyway...he came to me on his own with this.
This is going to take much more communication.....but right now crazy as I may seem, I have to try. I'm hurting like hell, I just don't feel we are over. I can't explain it but I feel even though he probably didn't really believe he'd be "caught"....there was a big part of him that wanted to be.
I've asked him again today if he has anything else he wants to tell me, and he swears this was the only thing he was hiding from me. I know when he said that I looked at him skeptically....he knows I won't just buy that, but I will continue to give him the opportunity to tell me anything else on his own before I discover it.
After I asked that he did have to leave the house for a few hours. Needless to say....I scoured EVERYTHING of his in this house. I looked absolutely everywhere he might have had ANYTHING hidden....because I felt I needed to. I found absolutely nothing else to send my alarm bells off further. I searched credit card statements....EVERYTHING.
So...day #1 of rebuilding has nearly passed....we're both still alive.
Quote ------------------- ...but right now crazy as I may seem, I have to try. -------------------
GEL, you say when and how far. No one gets to determine that it is over but you. You owe no one here an apology for trying to fix your marriage. You are not crazy, and all this is not the end of the world. It is what you want to make of it. If that is a fresh start, then that is what it is.
All the best. -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I read your posts yesterday but password expired and I couldn't log on busy day.
I am so very sorry! I have a few short things to say:
1) Having Sex with your H will not cure the problem. I"m not saying you shouldn't have S...but having Sex will not cure the root of the problem that he has.
2) The best advice you get from this board will be the NOPS. Email them privately. They are kind enough to care, take time, and give THE BEST advice here. Can say more privately there.
3) Your H has been living a lie, so I wouldn't really believe much of his story right now.
4) I"m sorry that I am not aware of your past. How many times has he been married? Sounded like more than once. Is that true? If so, there is history there..issues that need dealing with. It is good you are dealing with it...but he really probably needs counseling. And get the right kind...there is a lot that wastes time and $$.
5) For yourself if you need to check phone records, install spyware...whatever.
The fact that he has done this since the beginning of your marriage is a big deal. He has some issues. Insecurity..and more.
GEL. You've always been a big help to me I hated to read this story. This is serious and needs attention. Stay with the MC idea. You or at least your H needs help not part time help delivering opinions with only part of the story. Do it together. God Bless
Such a long painful process. You are doing great. Hang in there. I'm glad Mr. Gel decided to get more real with you. Let's hope you really have heard the worst.
My concern is how do you know that he is truthful. Haven’t you been here before? Other than pulling together some very good concessions and explanations for his behavior, what has he done to PROVE his word? He is relying on your need to forgive him and hold this marriage together.
Look at it his way… Has he changed or come to any new realization that he could not have done last month, or when you were in those counseling sessions when he was making some breakthroughs? Why didn’t he bring these things up then? I recall it was SOOO difficult for him to talk about them. Now he seems to have simply turned the page and accept his shortcoming and is willing to suddenly deal with them.
And his excuses that your comments “didn’t occur to him” don’t hold much wather either, since that seems to be his standard fall back response. On one hand he is alble to think through a list of concessions sufficient to win you back, but on the other hand some things “didn’t occur to him?”
Something still smells fishy and I don’t thin he has come clean yet. Can you say sociopath?
GEL... I agree with you about not making any kind of labels, especially " sociopath." Suffice to say that your H has character and communication issues that require intensive work. The changes occur a day at a time, first behaviorally, and then hopefully and eventually, internally. Congrats on getting through day #1 ( I am leaving for a week tomorrow so I'll catch you at day #9...hang in there)!
First. My heart goes out to you. I know how you feel. Your post ripped open an old wound and I winced in pain for you. But I wanted to wait to see how you responded and hear what others had to say.
Normally I would make a joke about how long this is but I won't because this is very serious to me because I found myself in the same situation and I utterly blew how I should have responded out of a fear of being forced to abandon the person I loved. Yes, it's egregiously long, but bear with me.
You are not going to like this. You may even feel genuine dislike towards me—but that’s okay. I understand. I am not here to win friends and influence enemies. I’m a pragmatist by nature. And thick-skinned. But it comes from an area of tough love.
I have tremendous respect for you as well as a sense of protectiveness of you over this latest revelation. Personally, I would like to take your H behind the woodshed and give him an attitude adjustment. I am speaking from someone who has been betrayed and who found out almost the same way you have.
Here we go.
”…Today when I arrived home I found....he logged on and chatted with some women. Did some looking around in his account and found he's been on it for 3 F'in years....the entire time we've been married!”
--I know this site. My friend tried to get me to write his profile while he was separated. He spent nearly a year on it and even he was disgusted. And he isn’t disgusted by much. A site for F-buddies and cheaters, among other “just friends” intentions. I had never even heard of it. He found out through a work buddy. All the guys talk about AFF at his workplace. His work buddy scumbag bragged about how many M women he nailed from the site. He used to tell me all kinds of stuff. All of these Ws with pics of their unmentionables, looking for some action behind their Hs backs. And guys with pics of their units, along with measurements. I am willing to bet a lot of money he wasn’t looking at porn when you caught him last time…but rather one of these so-called “ladies” nude slutty pics, as AFF allows posters to post any and all graphic/explicit photos. This ain’t Christian-influenced E Harmony.
”…I couldn't wait until he got home to say something to him about this...so I called him. At first he tried to deny he'd been there until I flat-out stated. "You don't seem to understand....I'm looking at your user name.....I'm looking at your password....I'm looking at the time you logged in. Oh....and here's what your profile says......."
--This made me sick again. Almost exactly identical to my own sitch, except I actually got to see full blown explicit play by play ex post facto “Did you like it when I blank blank blanked you? Etc etc. etc”rehash of x and OM’s encounters.
And I was on phone too. She denied everything. Denied it so well I almost believed her. It was unreal. I said same. “You don’t understand. I have the evidence right here in front of me. There is no point trying to lie. I know everything.” Still fought. I turned the vise. And she finally broke and spilled. If I didn’t have hard evidence I would have believed her denials completely.
”…The thing that is just absolutely killing me right now is that....what he wrote he's looking for, is the EXACT same type of woman I am!!! In the question part of his profile where it asks "how big of a role does sex play in your life?....he wrote......my sex life has become barren and that's why I'm here!!!!"
--This is by far the most disturbing part of this whole situation. 3 Fing years. What did he do, come home from your honeymoon and start building his profile? Was your sex life “barren” within days, weeks, months after your wedding? Who does this? Who disrespects their W and lives a double life so soon?
“…that is why I am here.”
--OMFG. Look who’s the big problem-solver for your SSM issues. My hero! Since you obviously haven’t been doing anything about it, right GEL? I’m here because GEL is a cold frigid fish. Disrespecting you to F “strangers.” And this shows me he’s not beating around the bush. He is here for some action. Proactive. Seeking. “That’s why I’m here.” He is not here to make nice chatty F friends because he’s so lonely. I know this hurts real bad to hear, GEL. And, believe it or not, I’m holding myself back. I am very very angry at your H as a fellow “man.”
This is why I have to side with the comments from Cobra, Blackfoot, NiceGal, and maybe Karen. I’m starting to hear a lot of excuses on this board for why your H might be doing this…blah blah blah, his FOO. He doesn’t feel loved. Been hurt by Fs from past. He needs more counseling. He’s addicted Wah wah wah. Frankly, I don’t give a living sht for his poor hurt feelings, his low self-esteem and lack of comfort with women in terms of this latest revelation.
Be A F-ING MAN. Get over yourself, Mr. GEL. You are a human being first. And you are to respect other human beings first before wallowing in the slime caused by your own prurient weak-a$$ed selfishness and made-up, dishonest “wah wah wah, I’m not getting’ any at home” BS. WTF?
[from BF:] ”…IMO I think you need to either take Ian someplace so you can think and chill out for a few days, or tell H to not come home. This is a major boundary breach. There is no logicalling, or discussion that will make it better.”
--My sentiments as well. My biggest mistake in A. I should have left her and left her with the impression I was never coming back. I stayed and we verbalized solutions. Too soon--the very day I busted her on it too, as a matter of factBzzzt! I think deep down she wanted to be severely punished by me so she would respect me. I let her off too easily. And guess where I am now?
And one warning. Heed this. I read it in one of my books from some expert on infidelity. He said, if the SO uses words suchs as "Can't we just start over again from a clean slate?" You'd better watch the F out. He/she is not truly remorseful as he had discovered via his counseling and research. Will do it again. Said something like, "you'd better run."
BF's right. Major boundary breach. No discussions right now are worth a damned. Why? Because they are forced. Not organic convos. Organic problem-solving convos only sprout out of a place of mutual respect, love, and happiness…not panic-induced CYAzz, fear of abandonment, fear of hurting Ian places.
I don’t care one iota about that solutions list you guys have. I’d toss it in the trash. It’s fake. It’s forced. It’s only borne from turmoil and fear. I would take his list. “See your list, Mr. GEL? Wanna know what I think about your list?” [rip rip rip, shred shred shred; right into trash. “Too F-ing late. 3 years too late.”
”…coming home to face the music in a BIG way. He has already offered to go see our C about why he's doing this....and has begged me not to leave.”
--BAM. Right there. There it is. His biggest fear and the holy grail clue to your best iron-walled boundary. Begged you not to leave. If I had it to do all over again, I would have left if I heard my x say that. He verbalized his worst punishment. “Oh, really? That’s a good idea. Leaving. I think I will leave, now that you mention it. Goodbye. Feel free to enjoy your AFF fcuk buddies all you want now. I’m done with you. I deserve better. You’ll be hearing from my lawyer.” [yes, this can be used as a hard hard bluff but you have to be able to be prepared to mentally follow through with it, as otherwise empty threats will further lose respect. But it will damned well get your point across and strike terror in his heart]
...And he offered to go to C? But haven’t you been going to an MC for years already? Empty CYA bargaining. And my x would have sold me the Brooklyn Bridge to keep me from leaving her after I confronted her. Trust me. Heard it all.
”…The fact is now though, he's blown my trust in a HUGE way. He says he hasn't met any of these women....but you know what? He said he wasn't going to this site either. EVERYTHING he says is in question now.”
--Remember what I had said a while ago? Landica would agree. “If the witness is proven to have lied just once, everything that witness has said in the past and anything he/she says heretoforth should be called into question and doubted.” Mr. GEL has a serious credibility problem IMO.
I don’t get it. Did you not just explode like Mt. St. GELens a short while ago? Hitting walls etc. over why he is looking at dirty pictures while starving your SL?
Haven’t you ben pouring your soul into trying to fix your intimacy issues? Sought help from MC, C, this web site? How many thousands of posts have you made? Did that wall-punching outburst not scare him enough to go straight? Guess not. Okay, "okay no more porn. (but I never said anything about ditching my secret F friends on AFF.)" You would think your outburst and his supposed deep remorse would have caused him to shut down the AFF and his yahoo account that very night. And it's worse if the dirty pics were actually from the AF site, which is loaded with them. WTH is his problem?
[from Cobra:] ”…At this point I'm wondering what it is that you want to hear from him? Do doubt he is in super panic, cover all bases, think up all the excuses mode right now. He's got to have a good explanation when he gets home and he likely will. It doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough. Let some time pass and he can go back to life as usual.”
-- Yep. Your strength is your weakness, as someone here said. I relate to the above because the more uncompromising a person you are with what you will and will not accept, the more the transgressor will say virtually anything and everything not to have you cut them out of your life. This is how I am too. My x knew once I burn that bridge that person might as well be dead to me for the rest of my life. The begging and bargaining ensues to get someone like you or I to change our minds…give a second chance.
Makes life very hard/painful for us as it obfuscates our SOs true remorse/reality-based “need to take my lumps for what I did” solutions. They have to offer to be the one to leave first, not beg you not to leave out of histrionic selfish fear.
[from BF again:] “…If you want your H to respect you, if you want this serious breach of boundary to be recognized by him, once again, I reiterate that you both need a timeout. With him being the one to initiate and try to fix things. You mention your son, and his needs, but if your H doesnt get his problem, and take this seriously, that is going to be the outcome anyways. better it happen now for a short period of time then months of turmoil down the road, and a permanent break. You can also have your H stay somewhere else. Schnarchs --tough love is what is neccessary here. IMO. Love yourself and your worth. you will only get it if you earn it.”
--Exactly. And I’ll give you a RL example. My BIL was caught looking at porn on his computer. My sis is very very moral/religious. She caught him. Meltdown. She warned him. She set a hard boundary. A year or so later, she walked in on him again. You’d figure enough distance passed from first incident, right? Didn’t matter. He left for work. When he came back that night there was a note on the counter. I warned you. Goodbye. I have the kids. And she had 3 or 4 little ones at that time. Her kids are important, but this is way more important. Left him alone.
He freaked and lost it. He drove all night long 10 straight hours to get her back. Lost a day of work and probably some important appts. To boot. But I tell you what, he has never done anything like that again. Shook him to his foundation.
”…This is not a small problem of your H's. Any weakness/waffeling on your part will be abused. It will. ONLY you can prevent that. Please do it.
BF - I do hear you. But I am going to say this...."I" am not ready to make the move you suggest. I understand why you suggest it, but I'm not at the place I need to be to make that move.”
--GEL. I understand. This is way to soon for you to process solutions rationally. You HAVE to get into this place to make this move. It’s why our military trains every single day for potential scenarios. You have to prepare. Otherwise you will be caught unprepared and you will be wiped out by your emotions. Doesn’t mean you have to follow through. But you have to be mentally and emotionally prepared to be able to handle the worst possible scenario out of this.
What if you were to find out your H has cheated on you with 5 different Fs during his lunch breaks or whatever over the years? Intuition is strong, yes, but there is no such thing as 100 percent accuracy.
”…With that said. I drew a line last night....a very firm line. He crosses it....we're flat-out done (and yes I mean it). Why did I give him one last chance? Because I do love him.”
-- Aw, man, this is so painful for me. I can so relate to what you are feeling here. I thought the same thing. Second chance. Because I loved her. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. But you know what I found out?
You gotta love yourself first.
”…I had called him and confronted him one more time on something else I had found .... yes, he was asking for women to meet for drinks/coffee in most of the contacts he'd had. When I saw that I called him and told him what I'd found. Naturally...he swore he hadn't met up with any of them. My instincts (not my heart) are telling me he hasn't met them.....this is fantasy. IF I find out I'm wrong...we're done.”
--You won’t find out. How can you? He won’t tell you if he did. He is in panic mode. He is an iron trap. And I’m going to be devil’s advocate here GEL. And I know this is very painful, but you have to deal with the pain and prepare yourself for a worst case scenario—even if, God-willing, it turns out to be not true.
So, being devil’s advocate. You installed a key logger and you unearth a mountain of lies and deceit in 12 hours. This has been going on for 3 years. Your H has actually been proactively suggesting “most of these” Fs meet him for drinks/coffee in the few emails you read from him. What are the odds in 3 years he has never ever met up with anyone? As if his suggestions for drinks and coffee only were written hours/days before you discovered his double life? It would be different if the Fs were inviting him out to meet them. Then it’s plausible he’s ust toying around with them in fantasyland—never actually intending to follow through.
…but the initiation on his part really bothers me. What would he have done if any one of them said, “ok; let’s meet at blah blah blah” I’ll be there at Noon? You can only make excuses for so long on AFF before you start losing “interested” virtual friends who know you are “here because of my barren sex life."
"That’s why I’m here.” I think that sens a pretty strong message to me as an interested Female what this guy is looking for; after reading his profile and now his suggestion that he now wants to meet me somewhere for drinks and coffee. This tells me to dress for sex.
I know, GEL. I don’t like to apologize for being candidt but I am truly sorry for this. It had to be done. You have to be able to deal with the worst case scenario in your head so you won’t be blindsided by any future new revelations. You won’t be able to heal or heal your R before you can mentally stand up to this fire-breathing dragon.
”…There were also many times when he tried to assure me that he had no intention of "cheating" and no intention of meeting anyone that it was nothing but chatting. My response each and everytime was......your "intention" is irrelevant. I view what you did as cheating. You were not focusing that sexual energy on me and our M, that to me...is cheating. He told me he could see how I might see it that way....to which it's not that I "might" see it that way....I "DO" see it that way.”
--Yes. Something about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. And my x did say it was “nothing but chatting” with OM when they emailed/IM’d with each other during the A. Stakes are too high for him because there is too much heat right now. You both are in a no-win situation. His word against your feelings of betrayal. And his words for the past 3 years have been proven to have been suspect at best. That’s why I think it is a big mistake to try and find solutions the very day/next day you find out about this betrayal. Throw the list away. You’re too close to it and you haven’t processed it all yet.
Only time allows that.
And his “intentions.” I don’t care what he says. It’s responsibility. He wouldn’t have done this for 3 years if he had no intentions of anything. And, by that same token, okay, fine, he had no intentions of meeting them. But he did have intentions of hurting/lying to you for 3 years apparently; while standing there passively watching you destroy your own sanity and sense of self-worth over this issue. Letting you think the problem was your fault while dissing you to other stranger Fs about your ND behavior. Which is worse?
Let me just quote from one of the 26 Principles of Life I had referenced before, and as it relates to this:
17. Taking Responsibility: Our actions cause a reaction - it is a law of nature. We have to be aware of our actions and take responsibility for them and for the consequences of them. It is no good doing something and then saying you did not mean to do it. Had you not meant to do it, you would not have done it. By taking responsibility for our actions, so we can take back our power and freedom to choose. We have to accept that no one will live for us, and that sometimes our actions will cause others, or ourselves, a measure of discomfort. Remember though, that discomfort is one way of helping us grow and to show us where changes need to be made.
--Re-read the part where it says to take your power back and choose, everyone who is currently feeling powerless: landica? Haphazard among others? Nothing will change if you don’t feel discomfort over your painful, out-of-comfort-zone decisions to make things change.
Finally. GEL. I’ve beaten you up emotionally here perhaps. Yes, my love can get very tough but it comes from a pure place. I think you deserve a hulluva lot more respect for the last 3 years you’ve sacrificed selflessly on the altar of regaining intimacy.
I would never suggest you throw this guy under the bus and torch your M. Only you will know what to do and how you want your life to be. This is not a dress rehearsal we’re living. We only have one short life to find contentment.
As I told my x. This is the only life I have. And I will not allow another person to ever F it up through their selfish destructive actions towards my one and only life. I don’t have time for that.
If there is no honesty and effort to communicate to change things that are destructive then I have to cut my losses and move on. I refuse to install key loggers, spyware, nanny cams, pull cell records etc. as I cannot waste my time or mental well being on someone I can’t trust. You’re either with me or you’re against me.
And it’s getting crazy out there. Did you know they now have DNA kits you can order in unmarked packages to test your children for paternity? OMG. The day I have to swab my kid’s cheek, send the sample off to the lab, and eagerly wait for the “am I his/her father?” report is the day I finally lose it for good. (and there are stats out there saying 10-15 percent of all children born in Ms are not the spouse’s…some say higher. Arrrrgh.)
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
