It just seems like I can pull off the positive distance for only so long and when she pushes to discuss stuff I just kind of fall back in the old blame game, probably because our discussions mostly focus on my failures.
Last night, I think I foolishly thought that I could preempt whatever legal action is coming my way by talking things out and defending myself. I should have known better. Perhaps the separation will be a good thing.
I haven't posted before to you and I don't know your entire situation, just what is on this thread. Please forgive me if I rehash something that has been said before or go over ground that was covered ages ago.
I started at the part where you snooped and was a little disturbed, not just at your wife's reaction, but at the responses as well. Why shocked? Not because you snooped...you seemed insecure in the relationship at the time, and I believe rightfully so, but because everything was turned around on you. "You are an evil, evil man for invading my privacy and you know I'm entitled to talk harmlessly to anyone I want" is not a response that really seems all that conducive to patching things up. Her response to me and her diary cataloguing your numerous faults said to me that she wasn't even close to the point of wanting to reconcile. Not really anyway. She seemed to still be looking for reasons #1 through #20000 to get out of the marriage.
And your response is....I know I should do better...I'm such a jerk...I'm only thinking of myself.
What this all says to me is that it was too early for piecing. You didn't get any apology or understanding of your pain because she's still in that same place she was before....ready to leave (and of course painfully she has finally showed that was true). And piecing was too early for you as well because you were and are still at the point where you are insecure that she could leave.
I'm not trying to be harsh John. I feel for you and think I understand your situation pretty well. My wife left due to an EA with someone over the internet, a fantasy of a relationship that was perfect. There was a time we almost had the breakthrough where she would come back. I can picture the result of that as exactly what has happened to you; her feeling justified in her actions, dictating all the changes, keeping score on my faults, while I kissed her butt and jumped through every flaming hoop she asked me too. Looking back I'm happy that we didn't reconcile then. It took a divorce, my giving up and moving on, and her working through her own issues for us to reconcile. And she came back with remorse, apologies, and a commitment to making us work. I feel that you need a similar process. One in which you are firmly planted on your own two feet without "needing" her and she needs to work through her anger and built up resentments of you. You do need time to make the changes that work for you and that will last. Not the changes that are solely for her benefit.
I'm a little skeptical of her plan in terms of the on/off relationship. It doesn't take into account what you want. Or is that what you envision for a long-term solution? I'm sure you want more and that really allows her to have a friend without more, and leave you without an opportunity to get a life. But it's up to you. I just think you might benefit from a little less of her, especially when it isn't fulfilling what you need from life.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
You've really nailed it. I've always had just that feeling: that even when she recommitted back in the fall, she never really was ready to deal with my pain re: the EA. In fact she gets red in the face when I even call it an EA, for her it was just 48 hours when she was confused, said she loved another man, had been having sexual fantasies about him since high school, and was in her marriage only for the kids. Even though she recanted this stuff, she has kept up an off and on flirtatious e-mail relationship with him and it was my reaction to their valentines messages that caused her to drop the second bomb. Both of them (I've confronted the OM by e-mail) insist that they are just friends, he recently called their exchanges "organic". What an idiot!
I think if I didn't love her and the idea of an intact family so much, I could harness some anger, and do a much better job of distancing, I've never really been able to pull off much more than a PMA.
What really gets me is that this but-kissing dynamic has really solidified her image of herself as the stable "good" one and me as the erratic, unreliable, unable to make the needed changes one as I've struggled through hurt, fear, and loss. She has convinced me that I am an angry, blaming, threatening husband and that has basically made any challenge to her view of things as a deal-breaker.
We've really created a narrative where she is the long-suffering saint who had a brief slip, but only because I was not meeting her needs for so long. She sees the last nine months as a time when she was really working to save the relationship (but doing absolutely nothing different except reinforcing all my insecurities) while maintaining whenever I was hurt or upset that I refused to change enough (but did backflips trying to show her I was different). The power dynamic was so skewed that I really couldn't touch these core ideas. When I had the slightest issue with her e-mails or what had happened, she always dropped the ax. She almost seemed to want me to fail (e.g. not changing her e-mail password even when I asked).
We're still good friends today, but I worry that as we start to settle things, her sense that this is all my fault (and my frequent DB inspired agreement) will make her feel entitled.
So, when did your XW turn around, was it some specific event that brought her back to reality? Do you remain close or after the D or did you pull away? I love my kids and love family time and really don't want to give this up, but worry that I'm giving her everything she might miss by treating her like nothing is wrong.
Thanks for your message, it makes me feel surprisingly good to validate my experience. I think we LBS's sometimes get so caught up in trying to win them back that we start to internalize all the bad things our WAW's say to us.
I've been looking at your old posts recently and have learned a great deal. Thanks for continuing to participate in this board.
I'm trying to back-track through you posts, but you have an awful lot of them.
I'm kind of latching on to this idea that I may be giving my W too much positive attention and support through the separation process. I've really adopted the 'bad guy' role because anything else just seems to piss the wife off big time. Its clear that she sees any resistance and/or even sticking up for myself as evidence of not having made the changes she needed. From her perspective, I owe her big-time.
Can you tell me anything about how you approached the divorce proceedings? It sounds like you don't have kids which must have made things easier in some ways. I've posted on Rich's thread about finding a place where I am not so caught up in trying to reconcile, but also where I am conscious of the need to maintain a good relationship with my kids Mom. Did you have a strategy for the negotiations, did you LRT, go dark, whatever.
I'm well aware that it will ultimately be up to my wife to make the changes in her head that are necessary to recommit if this thing were ever to work out. She can complain that I didn't make the changes by not forgiving her, but I'm coming to realize that she never really came to the table after the first bomb, she just was checking out how high I'd jump.
Right now, I'm just trying to figure out how to gracefully get out of her way. It sounds like you think that maintaining a high degree of closeness, even as friendly co-parents, might actually keep her from confronting her own stuff. What do you think?
Snooped again, I know weak, counterproductive, ... But, sure enough, she's been e-mailing OM more than ever through the current rush to separate and doing stuff like using her maiden name in the messages. Should I really be surprised?
I'm having a really hard time not being angry, but luckily she's out of town till Monday. I know all this focus on the OM is unhelpful, but I'm heading into a mediation session on Tuesday where she expects us to figure out a way for ME to move out, for ME to give her alimony etc., because of all the ways I've let her down.
I really feel like telling her off and finally saying that she's the one who let this marriage fall apart, by becoming infatuated with another man, and that if she wants out, she should stop blaming me and start taking responsiblity for her decision (e.g. she finds a new place while we sell the house, she has to buy new stuff, etc.) If it weren't for the kids, I think I might have told her to pack it up a long time ago.
Anyone ever tried a "tough love" approach with a walkaway?
Right now I don't feel like I have much to lose and I feel like I've been so caught up in self-blame that I never was really able to hold her accountable for her decisions. Whenever I did, she threatened to leave and I backed down and apologized for "creating the conditions that led her to give up". Maybe I'm just venting, but the more I think about this, the more I feel like so many of these WAS's have already left before we even notice.
I guess I'm really lucky that we have the weekend off from each other. I'm in no mood to DB today for sure.
Sorry I was slow. I was out of town yesterday and today. I'm glad that I could at least validate what you are going through.
To answer your questions: How did I handle divorce proceedings? That was easy..she was reasonable and didn't want a whole lot except her freedom. I think the most important things to show during this time are that you RESPECT her opinion and decision, even if you don't agree, that her happiness is important to you even if it means she must go, and that you intend to be fair without being a pushover. Don't cave on everything, but be reasonable. Be very in control of yourself and strong.
As far as how distant to be. Her behavior will for the most part determine the level of contact. I don't recommend going dark and being all aloof, but giving her times when you just aren't reachable. But when she does call or you see her, greet her like a friend that you are happy to see. The most important thing for me, I think, was that I listened to her. Asked questions inquiring about her new life and let her talk without any judgement. Unless she finds that from this other guy (which she likely won't), being a sympathetic ear can be helpful in smoothing out some of this built up resentment.
John, I really think that you mainly need time. The EA came to light and was brief, but the fall-out afterwards never ran its course. Your W looked at you with a jaundiced eye and never did get to look at herself. This is a course she is going to have to follow. You can choose to be her friend during this.
In the meantime, you use your kid-free, wife-free time to do the things for yourself that you have been neglecting. If you were like me, you spent your free-time busting your hump to show how you were changing, but not really just enjoying it. Plan some excursions if you can afford it. Do some outdoors activities. Try something new. Personally, I'm so glad that I spent a little time acting like I had neglected some things in my life and doing things almost selfishly for me.
Remember you still have the relationship with your kids. Nurture that. It can be really a great way of spending time when you can do it with your kids. Plans activities with them and really connect.
Writing this, I'm actually excited for you. Marriage in some ways, especially these troubled times, takes so much out of you and robs you somewhat of precious time with your kids and with yourself. I almost envy you getting to start doing things that way without considering for awhile that you are married. Makes me almost yearn to be in MLC. I need to remember that I need self-care time.
Good luck John. I'll check in on your later.
Me (Wes)
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Sorry I was slow. I was out of town yesterday and today. I'm glad that I could at least validate what you are going through.
To answer your questions: How did I handle divorce proceedings? That was easy..she was reasonable and didn't want a whole lot except her freedom. I think the most important things to show during this time are that you RESPECT her opinion and decision, even if you don't agree, that her happiness is important to you even if it means she must go, and that you intend to be fair without being a pushover. Don't cave on everything, but be reasonable. Be very in control of yourself and strong.
As far as how distant to be. Her behavior will for the most part determine the level of contact. I don't recommend going dark and being all aloof, but giving her times when you just aren't reachable. But when she does call or you see her, greet her like a friend that you are happy to see. The most important thing for me, I think, was that I listened to her. Asked questions inquiring about her new life and let her talk without any judgement. Unless she finds that from this other guy (which she likely won't), being a sympathetic ear can be helpful in smoothing out some of this built up resentment.
John, I really think that you mainly need time. The EA came to light and was brief, but the fall-out afterwards never ran its course. Your W looked at you with a jaundiced eye and never did get to look at herself. This is a course she is going to have to follow. You can choose to be her friend during this.
In the meantime, you use your kid-free, wife-free time to do the things for yourself that you have been neglecting. If you were like me, you spent your free-time busting your hump to show how you were changing, but not really just enjoying it. Plan some excursions if you can afford it. Do some outdoors activities. Try something new. Personally, I'm so glad that I spent a little time acting like I had neglected some things in my life and doing things almost selfishly for me.
Remember you still have the relationship with your kids. Nurture that. It can be really a great way of spending time when you can do it with your kids. Plans activities with them and really connect.
Writing this, I'm actually excited for you. Marriage in some ways, especially these troubled times, takes so much out of you and robs you somewhat of precious time with your kids and with yourself. I almost envy you getting to start doing things that way without considering for awhile that you are married. Makes me almost yearn to be in MLC. I need to remember that I need self-care time.
Good luck John. I'll check in on your later.
Me (Wes)
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I appreciate your feedback. You seem like you've really gone through the full cycle with this stuff and have handled it with unusual stability and insight.
I wish I could envy the freedom I am heading towards, but you know, I really did like being married. I think this was part of our problem, she always felt like we weren't connecting enough or having enough fun and I was always happy just to have a caring wife and stable family life.
I'm trying to get excited about getting back into old hobbies, but right now I think I am still wishing I could just wake up from this bad dream. I've just been so focused on fixing this for so long, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around giving up.
Did you ever call you XW on the internet relationship? Did she ever come clean with you or were they "just friends". Was this a factor in the divorce negotiations?
Quote: Did you ever call you XW on the internet relationship? Did she ever come clean with you or were they "just friends". Was this a factor in the divorce negotiations?
The first time I found out by accident and she just said she ended it. I trusted her for awhile, but then I got suspicious and got the e-blaster surveillance thing. After I saw that she had actually ramped up her e-mailing, I calmly told her we were done looking for houses for me to buy and her to live in because I wanted her out of the house ASAP. In front of my W I wrote nastigrams to this person she was e-mailing saying that he/she could have my wife, that I no longer trusted her, and thanks for his/her effort in helping to destroy my marriage. She left within a couple weeks of that time. I re-established our friendship, but she didn't break this thing with the other person for the entire year. She actually never met this person or talked on the phone...she just lived with the fantasy of who this was. She just finally realized that it was all a fantasy, and because I had remained her friend, supported her, and improved the issues she had with our marriage, she just wanted back. I didn't immediately say "yes", I gave her time to actually work through these issues first.
John, I honestly feel that while the spouse is in la-la land with OP, real or imagined or a little bit of both, you can't necessarily compete because they are somehow perfect. But you can be the supportive friend. I know it sucks to think of yourself as the rebound person, but they are in a delusional fantasy which makes it a little easier.
The OP didn't come up in the D proceedings at all, but ours was extremely easy because we didn't share kids. Yours will inevitably be more complicated, but you can still handle the arrangements with the kids in a mature way and still have a fair arrangement. Remember to listen, listen, listen and validate. It will go along way if she feels her wants/needs are being heard. You can get a better arrangement if you work on this together than if you include lawyers and court. Settle most of the details between you. And the OP has nothing to do with it (in the WAS's mind) so no sense bringing it up in D discussions.
W
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
