Rather than focus on your W and her reactions and what they might mean, I think it might be MORE helpful to guide you into changing yours?
Quote: I learned, for instance that when I would say something like that I was proud of myself for sticking through all our stuff this past 8 months, what she was hearing was "you are a horrible bitch for hurting me". When I would say that she hurt my feelings by corresponding with the other guy, she would hear "you are an unfaithful wife".
Ouch! Okay, I'll admit to thinking the same thing. So it appears that she perceives you as "being right" and her "being wrong"... which is another varation of "if he wins, I lose."
John, let's not hang crepe or consider your M over. I think you need to shift thoughts and take some of that great advice that you offered to Rich a few weeks ago.
One thing that seems to work pretty well for you is to head INTO the storm. She seems to respond fairly well when you discuss the difficult topics--and maintain some of that emotional neutrality.
So why not just let the steam out, steer into the storm--when she initiates--and then get busy working on you? You've done a good job at quickly identifying how word choices help/hurt, so I'm thinking this might be a good place to start.
Now, let's talk about this victimization status you seem so fond of donning. Is this true?
Yes, I know that living on the edge is a tough place to be. You always have choices, friend. My guess is that you don't want to head across that line, so why not focus on the good stuff and leave all the rest in the pile of "what if"?
Put on your thinking cap. What are the things you've done in the past that show her clearly you're working on forgiveness?
Um, if I might say so, I'd have to observe that this seems to be your #1 obstacle, John. She clearly feels you maintain the virtuous role in your M, and she the villain. What are some things you can do to work on forgiving her--and yourself--for the hurts you've both caused?
More later...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I totally agree that the dynamic I developed (even after trying to address so many of the basic issues like connectedness) was of me as the long suffering LBS and her the confused, capricious, WAW.
We met for lunch today, and I was just trying to connect as friends and let her know that I really cared about her no matter what happened and that I'm o.k. losing the wife, but not the friend. I also let her know that I apologized for continuing to hurt her via my failure to forgive and that I was trying to understand why I was never able to come to terms with this.
Right now, I think I am just trying to continue to spend time with her and to let her just kind of vent on me. It's clear in our conversations that she is angry, dissapointed, and sure that if she doesn't step out of our dynamic, she is not taking care of herself.
I'm just not sure where to go with this for me. Distance feels like crap, and maintaining the friendship seems like a tightrope act where I risk continuing to add fuel to the fire of her dissapointment.
She seems very cool with us being as close as we've ever been (e.g. calling each other during the day, having lunch) am I just torturing myself by keeping this up?
If you are just torturing yourself with all this, what does your IC say about that? I do hope you are using a IC as a tool to getting past a past WAW situation. If you aren't you may not be giving yourself or your W your best. That would just be toruring yourself.
Interesting that you should mention the IC part. I did see an IC early on in this but found that he was both expensive and consistently pushing me to take care of myself and figure out what I would and would not take from this relationship. I percieved this as harmful to my goal of reconciliation and stopped seeing him in order to not focus so much on my pain and instead on being a better husband and father. I did talk with my wife some time ago about restarting therapy, but let her know (in what I now see as a very counterproductive way) that I feared that if I saw him, he'd convince me that I was not sticking up for myself if I stayed in the relationship. She consistently encouraged me to go. I now see how this reinforced her sense of my treating her like a villian.
I have however used the DB phone counselors a couple of times and found them very useful, if only to keep me from getting totally discouraged. I've actually got a session scheduled for tomorrow am.
I think where I am trying to get myself is to a place where I am truly above all of this. Where I can finally let go of all my hurt and dissapointment and just let go of the need to make things right or be vindicated or whatever. What's weird is I think I came pretty close to this when my wife first came around in early November.
I was just so cautious then about stuff that I tried to simply enjoy any closeness with as little analysis or expectation. It's funny because at the time, I think my wife saw this as my not wanting to be married anymore and not wanting to be with her. I found myself constantly reassuring her that I was thrilled to be reconcilled just committed to staying open to her changing her mind. I wonder if, from her perspective, this represented the beginnings of my treating her like a criminal, and my first stab at getting back at her.
As I write this, I think I am beginning to recognize that I was, unconsciously, trying to get her back all along. Yes, she did some hurtful things, but I must have been so afraid of dealing with these head on (and her walking out on me) that instead I slowly, insideously, berated her with comments about how much I had been through and made it begrudginly clear how our life was now so focused on making things right for her.
We did talk briefly about this today and I mentioned how I never felt like I could just directly approach her with my hurt, that I always felt like she replied with indignance and coldness. Not surprisingly, she said that this was my problem, and that she shouldn't have needed to make it o.k. for me. This has been her IC mantra from day 1.
Well I had a phone consult today, and it became painfully clear that I'm still trying to control this. Even if I give up on the outcome (e.g. a divorce) I am still trying to control the interpretation of why, how, etc.
She asked me what the first sign would be that I was trying to convince my wife of something and I said, "I opened my mouth." Sad but true.
Wife had a parallel couseling session and came back pretty red-faced and looking agitated. She did mention that she has an appt with a lawyer on March 6th, and I tried my best just to let it drop. I think I said something like, "Oh the same one as before."
In my conversation with the DB coach what became clear to me is that I've really become a jeckyl and hide with for my wife. In some ways I'm a DB superstar full of humility, humor, and support, at other times I am a hurt, controlling, jerk who should not be trusted at any cost. The jerk comes out when I am feeling insecure or when my wife is tentative, really bad timing.
So, my job is to make sure that as the crap hits the fan, the DB superhero is safely in place. No matter how nice or friendly I am, my wife is still afraid that I will go adversarial when this gets rough and it is this fear that keeps her from believing that I could ever change.
But, as we are so fond of saying, this is about me, not her and my Number 1 Goal, is to maintain a friendship with her no matter what happens. I have to find a way to put my own fears and hurt back in the trunk for another day, they have always been my worst enemy in this whole damn thing. And, as JoAnn, the DB coach helped me realize, my feelings are not important right now, what is important is weathering the crisis.
This all sounds great, but I still feel tremendous pain at the potential loss. I think it is easier the second time around, but it still stings pretty bad. My wife is always the person I turn to when things are bad for me, and it looks like I am going to figure out how to go solo on this one.
So, any tips on keeping a stiff upper lip?
Also, any feedback on how to handle the impending requests from my wife to move out, to sign separation papers, to negotiate custody, etc.? Right now, I'm just trying to be passive and stay out of the way of her plans. Will she see this as stonewalling later on?
Finally, I have seemed almost incapable of getting any real work done since this whole thing started back in June. I think my self pitty and pathological attention to what is going on in my marriage give me an excuse for slacking off at work and I am likely doing some serious damage to my career. I've kind of blown this off by saying that my marriage comes first and that I'm not in love with my current job anyway, but I really think I have become pretty self-destructive to other areas of my life while I "saved" my marriage. How do I help myself to get back on track?
I am wiser with each passing day, but I'd sure give it all up to stay married.
No, I'm not Nickel, but still read your post and wanted to chime in a bit. I'm sorry about things that are going on. BUT, as you said, things are out of your control, and as scary a feeling as that is, this is the time to grab the reins of the life that you CAN control, hold firm and start liking YOU. It's great that you admit your faults, but think of things you LIKE about how you've handled this. It's admirable that you spend an entire, somewhat painful, weekend with her. That you handled the lawyer comment so well, and you STILL engage in counseling for YOU. That's impressive. Sounds like your W still has a lot of trust issues with you; not just the snooping, but trusting the person you are becoming, the person you have the potential to be. Sometimes, when we fall in love, we see the person that is, but don't spend much time falling in love with the person they can be--to cherish growth and change. It's hard when you've been hurt. I know you understand her hurt--keep showing her that while making changes to you. Don't let the stress of this get you off track to a better you--it will only show her, and yourself, that you're doing this for the M, and will let go after that....that can be damaging for you as well.
I hear you SO WELL about the job thing and losing focus on life. I too felt that this was the most important thing in my life and was consumed that I was scattered in all the rest of life. Then, I slowly started focusing on work, friends, family (forced to, and still I think about M more than I should), and it felt GREAT to get balance back. I felt so confident about ME, my life, my job, the way friends liked my company, and family needed me. You are more than just a H...don't get stuck in thinking that role defines you. You are many wonderful things.
How do you get back with focus?
1) Commit yourself to go out with a friend or 2 this week...do NOT talk R. Let them plan it (I'm sure they would love to), laugh, have fun, and let go. See yourself as a fun guy with a life intact.
2) Break up your routine...find a place you like to spend alone time...a coffee shop, bookstore, mall, theater, whatever. Do you have kids. Take them along. If you're like me, you've been just going to work and then home to brood over the M. Take a break from that--a breather.
3) Take a long drive--listen to some music, a book on tape (non-M).
4) Take a long walk or workout. Seriously--working out has REALLY pulled me out of some bad funks in the past....it didn't make me giddy, but I felt good about ME, and functional.
5) Is there something you've been holding off buying, something fun. Go get it. You need the boost now.
6) People say get a hobby, and I think this is great, but if you're just starting out to refocus on life, it may be a bigger task than immediately achievable (speaking from experience). So start off by just looking into a new hobby..classes at a local school, a new craft, etc. Just researching about something you've always dreamed of is fun enough and takes your mind off of things and helps you plan a new part of your life w/o the W and just YOU.
7) Work....really, I set aside time in the day that I allow myself to check these boards or other sites. Other times, I write up really silly, detailed lists of things I have to do on projects...really step-by-step, so I feel I am accomplishing something and keeps me going. It helped me to set my sights on career goals again, write them down, really think about them...also, another side of your life that does NOT involve W but that you can excel at. You mentioned not liking this job...what can you do to improve that, or find a new job. Keep your mind busy and really boost a new side of your life.
Well, those are some things that really worked for me. I really dreaded going out with friends, wanting to stay in the funk, but then found that when they dragged me out, I had ag reat time and it was a mental vacation. NICE.
Ahhh, the pity parties.....that IS a dangerous ground.
Something I do to try to pull myself out of that...when I feel like "why is this happening to me...how unfair." I start thinking of all the things I did in our M that I am still pretty ashamed of, where I should have, could have, acted better. I think of how it must have made H feel, how he feels remembering all those things now....then, your mind wanders, quite naturally, to a realm of action...of firm resolve in the great changes that you have already made, on how you can improve...that usually gets me pretty excited and feeling more powerful. Changing me is something I CAN control and succeed with. The rest will come from there.
Always--Great reply... your comments are wonderful and awfully helpful.
John--Nickel is insanely busy at work and getting ready to do some hard core traveling (both business and pleasure) for the next few weeks. I'm not sure how much time she's going to have to post... so you'll have to settle for the rest of us for the time being.
A couple things. BTW, your post is pretty uplifting despite the pain you're feeling. I hope in a few days you'll be able to read back and use this as a precipice for further growth. Because I see lots of glimmers here.
The #1 glimmer? You're willing to state your goal to be her friend--no matter what. That tells me heaps about your character. So if you can build on this concept and outline some goals and markers/milestones for this achievement, you might find a few other benefits stem from it. I say go for it!
You asked for help, so let's go:
Quote: So, any tips on keeping a stiff upper lip?
Well, I don't know if you realize this, but you actually answered it in your previous sentence:
My wife is always the person I turn to when things are bad for me, and it looks like I am going to figure out how to go solo on this one.
I know how wonderful it is to have someone close to bounce ideas. But this appears to be the one place she doesn't want this type of interaction. In fact, John, I'm sitting here chewing my lip and wondering if this isn't exactly why she's uncomfortable?
Bear with me, becuase I'm feeling something... and it's something that some of us womenfolk here have noticed in our own marriages too. So let me elaborate a bit.
The one thing that tired me to no end was (and IS) when Mr. Wonderful expected me to be his emotional thermostat. In his mind, I held the key to how he was feeling. So if I didn't react the way he had hoped I'd react, I'd set the thermostat for some very unpleasant interactions (unbeknownst to me, BTW).
From where I sit across the computer screen, it seems as though she's saying that she's having a problem with the fuzzy emotional boundaries? Could this be true?
If anything, developing a stiff upper lip seems awfully connected and a little too coincidental if you ask me. For me, developing a stiff upper lip meant I had to really begin listening and to stop personalizing every doggone conversation we had. Yes, you know the drill: drop those pesky expectations and labels. If you have to start somewhere, work first on the labels... stop giving in to the temptation to say, "If I don't hear what I want to hear, it's bad." That just gives way too much license for everything outside your miniscule box to get classified as unpleasant or bad. See where I'm going?
It also ties to your goal of being friends. Put your thinking cap on and put some other person in the position of your W--who IS a friend. Now, can you name some of your behaviors that you do with W that you don't do with friend?
There's undoubtedly going to be a goldmine of data there.
Quote: I am wiser with each passing day, but I'd sure give it all up to stay married.
Geez, John, you're a counselor. I doubt seriously that you'd counsel someone into selling their soul to get a pig in a poke, right? Now I know that's not what you meant, but desperate statements usually indicate desperate thoughts. I highly recommend abandoning this type of thought process for one that's more mutual and hopeful. (It implies that someone wins and someone loses...)
We all have an inner jerk who comes out when we're feeling fearful. In fact, I don't know if you've read any of Susan Anderson's books? The Journey from Abandonment to Healing discusses how we have Big Me and Little Me (and a few assignments) and honoring both of them. In fact, John, you might find this book insightful. I tapped into many of my fears in this one handy book...
So, I think if you do the exercise (putting a friend as a stand in for W and comparing your responses), you might be able to carve a few friendship goals? What do you think?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey 