Cobra, Fwiw, I agree that Dr. Laura's advice works. Although my husband has more complex needs than food, sex and praise, I was stubborn and didn't meet those additional needs for a long time. Still...he was happy. When I reached down deep and began meeting his additional needs (long before he deemed it necessary to meet mine, thankyouverymuch) he became realllly happy. So, yeah, it's an oversimplification but it's one that also happens to be true. Many women don't want it to be true, because it is not very attractive in our eyes, being the complex beings that we are, but whatcha gonna do.
Like I said, I don't think my H would have felt fulfilled in such a setup..eventually he would have acted on the longing for more, but he was quite content with this only.
On another note, I found this to be interesting:
Quote: In spite of all your gender neutral positions on public issues, you still feel like one to me.
Let me ask you this: What is your definition of a feminist then? If it's not someone who has the same political agenda as most feminists, then what is it? A woman who does not back down from a man? Who gets inhisface? What is that quality you are referring to that pegs one as a feminist?
I find it interesting that we women who do what Dr. Laura suggests but also find fault with your tone and style of posting are called feminists! If the criteria is that broad then the good doctor (lol) herself would be a feminist. She works, she's abrasive, etc.
Is there more to being a good wife, in your opinion, than merely following DL's advice? Does one also have to adopt a subservient placating attitude?
I am only trying to point out that this particular sword has two sharp sides. I agree that women discount men's feelings. Is there any agreement that men also discount women's feelings?
I’ve never denied this.
*A woman expressing her feelings diminishes a man's feelings.*
When a woman puts a man off balance by exaggerating her hurt feels just to get him to dance a dance he is not naturally comfortable doing, then she draws his focus off his feelings and onto his. Does she MAKE him do this? No. Did I ever say she does? Is is possible for her to do so? NO, of course not.
BUT, many woman know this dynamic holds true and will use it to their advantage. For instance, HP said I found that setting a firm boundary re: sex took the sting out of any bad feelings I was having.
And can you really expect me to believe that this did not register with HP’s husband, that the next time something like this comes up he won’t be careful of what he does least he risk losing sex for some period of time. And can you really expect me to believe that this isn’t a form of control over a man, whether conscious or not?
If you don’t think this is so, then good for you. Is see it playing out too many times and I believe it is applicable to many, not all situations. That is my opinion. If you don’t agree, then say so and leave it at that.
My question has been and continues to be, how has my telling Cobra that I found his response offensive diminish his feelings?
When did I ever say your remark diminished my feelings? My comments have been in regard to Schlessinger’s book. Then you ask how that concept can diminish men’s feelings and now you twist it around to you personal comments diminishing me personally.
My original comment was
I do not usually sense this same obligation in women. Rather I feel women tend to diminish men’s feelings because they don’t think men don’t really know what they are feeling anyway, right? So not only do women ignore men’s feelings, but they convince themselves that men don’t feel and if they do feel, they are feeling the wrong thing and need to be taught otherwise. That “otherwise” becomes the woman’s perspective of emotional content. Men have their own perspective. That is all I am saying. And it doesn’t mean he loves you any less.
What is it in this statement you don’t understand? You want more examples? Go read the book. Its full of them.
But, he has not shown how my expression diminished his feelings.
I never said you diminished my feelings. This is something you want to start up.
I notice that you have a tendency to jump into thread like this and start nit picking points as if you need to lay down the final voice of authority. I can recall a couple of times you and Lil got into it over what seemed to be nothing, other than a test of wills.
I do not know what your point is here. The things you are arguing over have little to nothing to do with my main thesis. If you don’t agree with me then fine. Say so and go start your own thread. Your persistent picking is starting to feel a lot like harassment to me and I don’t like it one bit. You do not own this board. It is a public forum and I can state my thoughts as I wish. Start your own thread with your own points of view but quit harassing me.
One other thing, if you think it is in the best interest of this board to scare off anyone who disagrees with your view of relationships, then you’re nuts. The value of this forum is a diversity of opinion. Stop acting like a Nazi censor!!
Let me ask you this: What is your definition of a feminist then? If it's not someone who has the same political agenda as most feminists, then what is it? A woman who does not back down from a man? Who gets inhisface? What is that quality you are referring to that pegs one as a feminist?
Maybe feminist was not a good choice here. Now that I think of it she feels more like a control freak who wants to dismiss my point of view, and that’s what’s got me riled.
There’s plenty of BS on this board that I don’t agree with. Some times I make a post and other times I just pass. But I don’t know that I’ve ever harassed anyone to the point I’ve seen MrsNOP do.
Quote: I am not being a smart ass. I *cannot* see where you have shown a single example of this. Would you be kind enough to cut and paste where you showed me an example of this and place it right under this request?
How about: Let me make a more extreme example. I would like my wife to have breast implants. It is something I, as a male, would like. The very fact that I would mention something like this is likely to trigger all kinds of attacks from women that I am objectifying my wife, I do not care for her a person, that I only want her for sex, blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is that I would like her to have bigger, firmer boobs rather than smaller sagging boobs. And I can want this in her and still care about her as a person, even if I want to objectify her boobs.
Thank you for the examples.
I say it doesn't matter what an amorphous bunch of women somewhere out there have to say about what you want. All that matters is whether or not your wife agrees with you. And how would the fems know if you don't discuss it with them? It's not as if you and your wife would have to go before some feminist board of directors to gain approval before you could proceed.
And if your wife posted on any male dominated forum (for instance soc.men), that she wanted you to get pec implants because it is something as a woman she would really like.
What do you think the response is going to be?
I think it safe to say that the men's response to your wife's need for your pec implants will be the equivalent in uproar to a bunch of women hearing about your desire for her to have breast implants.
Quote:
But this is heresy in the feminist circle. Men are made to feel guilty about thinking such thoughts. I see not reason why we shouldn’t. If I am willing to accept my wife as she is, and do not think less of her if she doesn’t get a boob job, then I should have no hesitancy in stating what I like. But I can’t. Just like I can’t tell her she looks fat on that pair of pants (no I don’t stuff a Twix bar in my face).
See above regarding opposite gender specific heresy responses. It ain't going to be any different, whether we're looking for pec implant support or breast implant support for your personal preferences for your spouse. So, is there a vast conspiracy of manimists against women seeking pec implants for their husbands?
Or does it strike you that some distaste for this crosses both over to both sides of the gender aisle?
And your wife can't tell you that the size 32 jeans you used to wear in highschool aren't really supposed to go *under* your belly in order for you to stay in the same size jeans, without the comment producing some negative emotional feedback in you.
I would like to say that the need to have an attractive spouse is a legitimate need. Either spouse that lets themself go physically shouldn't be horribly offended if their wife/husband no longer finds them appealing. Some people don't have issues with it, other people do. Like any legitimate need, it can be taken to an unhealthy extreme.
And I wouldn't hesitate to say that the desire for an attractive spouse (which can be held by both genders) is probably one of the least socially unaccepted (publically anyway) needs - again, however, it cuts across both genders.
I confess to getting a bit squicked myself at the idea that a woman who has kept to an attractive weight, keeps physically fit, clean, dressed and coiffed, isn't quite good enough unless she goes through an invasive surgical procedure and if she wasn't wanting it herself.
But I would feel exactly the same toward a woman who wanted her husband to have butt implants. So, again, it's not gender specific.
And if it's not gender specific, how can it be an affront to men alone?
Quote: Let me ask you this: What is your definition of a feminist then? If it's not someone who has the same political agenda as most feminists, then what is it? A woman who does not back down from a man? Who gets inhisface? What is that quality you are referring to that pegs one as a feminist?
Maybe feminist was not a good choice here. Now that I think of it she feels more like a control freak who wants to dismiss my point of view, and that’s what’s got me riled.
There’s plenty of BS on this board that I don’t agree with. Some times I make a post and other times I just pass. But I don’t know that I’ve ever harassed anyone to the point I’ve seen MrsNOP do.
This control freak will bow from the field and leave it to you undisturbed.
But Cobra, you dismissed my point of view as well and I was agreeing with you about the book.
I see a 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' attitude in you. You are so incensed with having given away your power to your mother and then your wife that ALL females are suspect to you. Even when one is agreeing with you, you don't see it and continue to attack.
This seems incongrous with your natural temperament and, therefore, has a bit of a poser quality to it..a Cemar-ish view of the world where you come out swinging and don't even pay attention to what you're swinging at.
As far as me setting a boundary about sex and MrH changing his behavior lest he lose out on sex, that WAS a joke right? Sarcasm? Satire?
I can tell you that MrH changed because he is a people pleaser and he intensely dislikes anyone being upset with him. The fact that he may be morally obligated to try to meet my needs, or that he is a man who needs my feminine charms was NOT on his list of reasons why he did it. They are merely fringe benefits of his decision to do things that would lessen my unhappiness--please me, iow.
Edited to add: I am not saying that MrH's changes are less, in my eyes, because of his intentions. I really don't care what his intentions were; we are happier as a couple, regardless. I just found it laugh-out-loud amusing that you'd think that one of his motivators was fear of being cut off.
Re cobra But I don’t know that I’ve ever harassed anyone to the point I’ve seen MrsNOP do. Why do you think Mrs NOP is harassing you? She has a different POV from what I am reading. Some people have strong beliefs in sertain areas. Does that make you or her wrong? For her to be your friend long term, maybe, but this forum is to share things that work and support each other when we are not feeling loved enough by our respective spouses.
Maybe i have been to a few too many AA type meetings ( I had to take the deliquent boys) and heard "take what you can use and leave the rest behind." I don't agree with anyone 100% of the time but I don't tell anyone how their actions might feel like they are yanking my chain to keep things stired up.
I know you both have things to contribute to the forum and different POV's, so please back off from the harrassing comments.
Cobra, you have strong opinions in this thread about Women, Feminism and the Impact on Marriage. I could see your point especially with someone like how Hairdog describes his W and you describe your W. I am not there to observe your situation. I don't see Mrs. NOP in that light. Yes, she has strong opinions about some things.
Cobra, When you interact with your wife, do you feel the need to call names or get vicious if she isn't agreeing with you?
I don't understand why you are so pissed off at MrsNOP. She happens to be a lovely woman--quite the embodiment of the type of lady Dr. Laura is talking about. However, she's also razor sharp and isn't afraid to point out inconsistencies when she sees them. You yourself told me the other day that the stuff that makes us the maddest is probably the very thing we need to heed the most.
Let me leave you with a final question: Since both MrsNOP and myself have bothered you with our comments, at various times, I am sensing that you don't currently take it well when women argue with you, even if it is in the spirit of a friendly debate.
Is there a way that a woman can argue a point with you wherein you can open your earballs and hear what she's saying?
I'm trying to imagine being your wife and having everything I say filtered through your lens and it would be frustrating!
I am sorry. I do know you were agreeing with my views on the book. I was getting quite pissed at MrsNOP for her continual nit picking and did not do service to your reply.
I see a 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' attitude in you. You are so incensed with having given away your power to your mother and then your wife that ALL females are suspect to you.
Again, it is giving away power that upsets me, it is the lack of respect for both sides of an argument and dismissal of one side as irrelevant only because someone says so that bothers me. There is a sense of injustice and unfairness to it.
Even when one is agreeing with you, you don't see it and continue to attack.
Look back to the earlier posts in this thread. I do not think I was so agitated then. These incessant, idiotic back and forth arguments over details is what got me mad. I think I am basically on the same page as you on this topic.
As far as me setting a boundary about sex and MrH changing his behavior lest he lose out on sex, that WAS a joke right? Sarcasm? Satire?
I thought you meant that you have set boundaries of withholding sex as a means to make yourself feel better. If that is what you meant, then I saw that as a confirmation that women can use their emotional state as justification for setting boundaries to control their men. Did I misinterpret this?
I just found it laugh-out-loud amusing that you'd think that one of his motivators was fear of being cut off.
Well, actually I was wondering this. And I think in the back of many men’s minds, they do consider this. It may not be a top consideration, and it may not always be there. But I do think men consider this. Don’t know about your H.
