Example of a woman who diminishes a man's "feelings"? Have you read ANY of my posts here? Ms. Hdog constantly diminishes my feelings as merely an expression of the toxic effect of testosterone on my body. "You say you're sad/frustrated/ angry/upset/lonely because you and I don't have a physical relationship, or because I haven't kissed you in two weeks, or because I recoil at your touch? You're just pissed because you're not getting laid." And she follows with a hundred examples of how that is all physiological, and that what she is feeling at the moment is what is REALLY a FEELING.
So I rarely bother trying to tell her how I "feel" at the moment because, to her, it's only the testosterone talking.
And Ms. Nop: Thanks for the "fixer" website. Velly interesting.
I would also call myself a fairly passive male in our relationship. I have been in about as many physical altercations as has MrsNOP has. I do take issue with your characterization of men as being relationship fixers in greater number than women. I find little evidence of this, except possibly on this board; but remember we are a select (weird?) group who are willing to talk about personal issues with strangers. No, I believe that women are still far more likely to try to fix a relationship than are men. Men are still primarily focussed on job and other outside influences. And when things go wrong in the marriage, men, unfortunately, resort to divorce and to violence more frequently than do women. I'm not saying that most women who attempt to fix a marriage are competent to do so, but at least they try.
It's very frustrating to me that my W is not willing to put effort into the marriage, but I can't blame this on feminism. In fact, I am in a real quandry. She is a traditionalist in that she wants me to take the lead in many issues. She will never initiate sex, but that's not all. She will often ask why something hasn't been done, that she did not ask to be done. I am expected to be primary breadwinner, loving father, Cassanova-like suitor and mindreader! However, she also wants to have her way much of the time. I end up being the one patiently explaining that a $500,000 house is a budget buster; she then loves to call me a chicken$hit, because I insist on us not bankrupting ourselves. Judging from the standup comedians of the pre-feminist 50s, I feel that such issues existed even then. If anything, withholding of sex as a conscious act was one of the few weapons women had in earlier generations (e.g., Lysistrata).
Feminism has given many women the ability to walk away from marriages that are abusive or otherwise infulfilling, without having to worry about substantial economic deprivation. Men have to bring their A game much of the time if they want to stay married. I think men need to rely more on their gentlemanly qualities than on their barbaric qualities of they want to succeed in marriages. Josef Mengele was a man, but so were most of the New York fire fighters on 9/11. Men in this century are resepected primarily if they possess wisdom rather if they possess strong arms. Men of wisdom are not depicted frequently in the media, but they need to be role models. We need to exercise what wisdom we have in our marriages every single day.
Yeah, I forgot about Mrs. Hairdog. She is over the top. I feel I am in an anachronistic marriage. But I'm glad my W does not read the same books as Mrs. HD.
No, I have not read the book. Is that a requirement in order to discuss *your* opinions and assertions about the book with you?
Not a requirement but you might understand better what I am agreeing with – Schlessinger’s premises. She has examples all through her book. In fact, she writes it by pulling themes out of numerous examples (sometimes too many).
How many participants on SSM have read SSM? Have you?
Yes.
I am not being a smart ass. I *cannot* see where you have shown a single example of this. Would you be kind enough to cut and paste where you showed me an example of this and place it right under this request?
How about: Let me make a more extreme example. I would like my wife to have breast implants. It is something I, as a male, would like. The very fact that I would mention something like this is likely to trigger all kinds of attacks from women that I am objectifying my wife, I do not care for her a person, that I only want her for sex, blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is that I would like her to have bigger, firmer boobs rather than smaller sagging boobs. And I can want this in her and still care about her as a person, even if I want to objectify her boobs.
But this is heresy in the feminist circle. Men are made to feel guilty about thinking such thoughts. I see not reason why we shouldn’t. If I am willing to accept my wife as she is, and do not think less of her if she doesn’t get a boob job, then I should have no hesitancy in stating what I like. But I can’t. Just like I can’t tell her she looks fat on that pair of pants (no I don’t stuff a Twix bar in my face).
Or:
And this is where feminism comes in. If the man is raise to minimize his feelings and feels responsibly for keeping his wife happy, or at least trying to fix her unhappiness, then he takes on an additional load. And even if he knows that he is not responsible for the feelings of others, he cannot help but be brought down by a wife complaining that her feelings are hurt. He instinctively wants to make her feel better, even if he knows he can’t. This inability diminishes his feeling of control over his world. Yet he is a man and men control their domain, they are the king of their castle, or at least other men are, just not him.
Questioning your assertions, disagreeing with your assertions, giving examples that counter your assertions - these are not attacks on you. They are merely disagreements with what you seem to be propounding.
I will take issue with you here. I agree that your have not been launching a full out, direct attack on me. But you have been relentlessly picking away at my opinions merely because you do not agree with them or can understand them. Others seem to have understood very well what I was saying.
Your methods of “disagreeing” are EXACTLY what I am talking about. If we were in a relationship (heaven forbid) you started in on me with your incessant disagreements, I can guarantee that I would not want to express my opinions to you much longer. You may not think you are attacking me, but in a relationship, it would begin to come across to me like that.
I do not think men push their views to the point you do (and many women do, I feel), especially concerning a topic like emotions and relationships, in which women seem to regard themselves as the authority. Maybe there is a reason NOPkins does not consider your feelings as much as he should?
And what you have said makes no sense whatsoever. Choc references some earlier discussion about Dr. Laura (that you evidently weren't a part of) states that she is controversial and somehow that's my fault because I saide something to you this week?
Where do you get this stuff? When did I ever say that he found posting thoughts about Schlessinger to be your fault. He said the topic was controversial on this board. I assumed he was not getting flak from the men since we sad It's come up before, and I found just CeMar and me agreeing with its main points, and she is a very controversial figure. If that assumption is incorrect, then that is my fault. But I don’t think it is incorrect.
And is it possible for women to "become affected," when hubby gets distanced, cold and withholds affection, all as a way to "punish" the wife for her inconsideration for his needs to go hunting every weekend?
Of course women can be affected. But I am not talking about women, I am talking about men. Maybe you should start a thread about how distancing, cold and withholding men can be.
And while you are *affected* by what she expresses, you are not *diminished*. Which is what the issue has been, whether or not a man is *diminished* when his spouse expresses her feelings.
Who said anything about being diminished? Men are affected by women’s expression of dissatisfaction, sometimes to the point of being afraid of the consequences. Is this diminishing? I don’t think their sense of self is diminished. My assertion is that men feel a need to adjust to their wife’s dissatisfaction, which may or may not be justified. And this makes men feel guilty.
And what, if not generalizing, have you been doing?
I believe I stated somewhere in this thread that I am generalizing, and that this does not apply to all relationships.
This seems to be something inherent to females and is therefore wrong. This seems to be wrong in your opinion because it places some unbearable onus on the man to fix.
I never said this was wrong of women. I said it is the way it is, but men don’t need to feed into it.
This need for the man to fix things is inherently male and therefore something he can't help, but that's okay because he's male.
Yes, exactly.
The male's response to female emotional expressions is also a result of feminist infected therapy, therefore it's still women's fault.
Only partially. The only blame lies with men for feeding into this. If they want to continue doing so, then fine.
So, the male's inherent tendencies get a free pass, a woman's inherent tendencies don't.
Sounds like projection from somewhere… . Having an alternative point of view isn't an attack nor is it an indicator of hatred.
True, and your disagreements with me don’t get me riled up, though it is becoming a pain replying to all these messages. But again, we aren’t married, and if we were, I would begin to take another view of your “disagreements.” They would sound to me like you don’t accept my viewpoints and want me to change them, and possibly change me.
But if I disregard you, then I will be in fear of some type of retribution or consequence (like no dinner, no sex). So just how endearing to me do you think your disagreeing is? And before you jump in and say that sounds like implicit control, let me say that is is, every bit as much as men fear for consequences is implicit control.
In the past on this forum, I have pointed out …. So, tell me, am I a feminist?
In spite of all your gender neutral positions on public issues, you still feel like one to me. And that’s my opinion.
I do take issue with your characterization of men as being relationship fixers in greater number than women.
I think things have drifted from my original contention. I do not think men are the relationship fixers. As you say, women generally take this on. Men try to fix their wives feelings. Whether that fixes the relationship or not is another matter.
She is a traditionalist in that she wants me to take the lead in many issues. She will never initiate sex, but that's not all. She will often ask why something hasn't been done, that she did not ask to be done. I am expected to be primary breadwinner, loving father, Cassanova-like suitor and mindreader!
Mindreader… do you mean you have to try and guess her feelings to so that she is not upset? Does she become cold toward you because you are too dense to understand how she feels, or that you should be doing something that is plainly obvious to her? Do you feel like you are always one step behind her in trying to figure this out, that as soon as you think you do, the rules suddenly change? And you don’t think this is some form of implicit control, to keep you off balance? And if so, whose hand could it possibly be playing to? Sure not yours. That leaves only one other person…
Quote: I applaud your bravery in citing Dr. Schlessinger's book. It's come up before, and I found just CeMar and me agreeing with its main points, and she is a very controversial figure.
Why would he say such a thing if it were not for the attacks I have been receiving by some women, but most notably you.
I'll have to differ with you here Cobra. (woke up this morning -realized -no you arent Cemar.)
I see you saying that the male way of feeling and needing is valid. but the females isnt. thats what I get from your posts. Mrs. nop is saying a womans is just as valid.
They are different. Wommen hold on to emotional hurts longer then we do. Its how they are wired. Its not wrong of them.
We are hungry, and horny and get grumpy when its not taken care of. Its not wrong of us. Once again I am glad you realize your needs are valid, however you got there.
As is the case with anyone once they regain a little power or come into some new power, they tend to abuse it a little.
You have a lot of anger.(I understand) Its not an effective tool to staying in intimacy. You and your W have alot of bouncing in and out of conflict to do to get to intimacy. The anger is yours though. You chose to accept the treatment that caused your resentment at the time.
Once agin if you are comfortable with your position, yourself, secure, confidant, the tests wont bother you.
As far as Dr. Laura's book I find it far beneath the efforts expended by the vast majority of the women on this Forum. SSM.
Personally I'll take a strong minded, knows her self and her worth, feminist woman over a 'yes master' sub- serviant.
I see the distinction you are drawing. Corri made a point earlier that "fixers" are often trying to control the relationship in a passive-aggressive way. It's a subtle point but an important one. Here's my take on it: if you're a man and you are trying to fix the relationship, you could appear whiny. This is not effective.
I'm with you. My wife is frequently irrational. I constantly have to set her straight. This is not the fault of feminism. My mother was goofy much of the time, and my Dad finally gave up on her. He didn't divorce, but sought refuge outside the marriage. It was horrible. I kind of hoped feminism would obviate situations like this, but I was wrong. It's psychological warfare on a daily basis in a marriage. It always has been. We men used to have an advantage we no longer have, so we have to change our tactics. I'm not saying men are superior; only different. It's best to exploit the best of those differences.
I'm glad you started this post. It's gotten me thinking. Paul
I see you saying that the male way of feeling and needing is valid. but the females isnt. thats what I get from your posts. Mrs. nop is saying a womans is just as valid.
I don’t know where you get this impression, possibly from these strung out debates over nothing. My position is nothing like this at all. I am saying both men and women’s opinions, reactions and needs for affirmation are valid. But when women use their upset feelings to trigger a fix from the man, it is a form of control and it is wrong. If a man does the same, then he is wrong too.
But women don’t seem to worry about men’s feelings so much. They tend to worry whether the man is happy with her, wanting her. This is an indirect concern for the man’s feelings, only as much as it relates to the women.
Not all women are like this, but I believe many are.
Quote: Example of a woman who diminishes a man's "feelings"? Have you read ANY of my posts here? Ms. Hdog constantly diminishes my feelings as merely an expression of the toxic effect of testosterone on my body.
HD, I fully agree with you that your wife diminishes your feelings. In fact, I pointed out to Cobra that one way a woman could do this would be by saying, "I feel that your feelings are inconsequential and unimportant."
And that's what your wife does.
I have also pointed out that it's something of a cultural joke that women are only saying/feeling X because of PMS or she's being hormonal.
And from my chair of personal cosmic importance, I see the reciprocal of the societal tendency to discount male feelings with the societal tendency to discount a female's ability to reason, 'cause she's so emotional, you know. Anyone encountered this?
I am only trying to point out that this particular sword has two sharp sides. I agree that women discount men's feelings. Is there any agreement that men also discount women's feelings?
The assertion that I have taken issue with isn't that women CAN diminish men's feelings but that:
*A woman expressing her feelings diminishes a man's feelings.*
Here's an excerpt from the previous postings:
Me: Can you give me some examples of women diminishing men's feelings?
Cobra: "It seems I’ve got you thinking about something, though I’m not sure what… "
(Just in case my "reader" was off, I read this aloud to NOP and asked him if it sounded pi$$y and he said it sounded the same to him. In case it is proposed that NOP's just agreeing with me to not hurt my feelings (har!) I have to point out that he has expressed agreements with some of Cobra's points about which we've been discussing the past couple of days. )
Me: I don't know how to read this, but it comes across to me as offensive. I can't tell if you're trying to take credit for my thought processes or if you're telling me that I've been unclear in what I posted."
Cobra: Thank you, you’ve answered your own question for me. Men generally do not jump to get confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended. The general model for boys is to let things slide, blow it off, don’t get into a confrontation unless necessary. Girls are taught to express their feelings as soon as they are hurt. Your response was perfect!" ======================
My question has been and continues to be, how has my telling Cobra that I found his response offensive diminish his feelings? He can tell me that no offense was meant, that offense was meant and I just need to butch up, or he can tell me to f#ck off. But what I wrote doesn't keep him from expressing whatever opinion, feeling or emotion that he wants to express. Nor did I preemptively discount it.
But, he has not shown how my expression diminished his feelings.
I can only assume that since he has failed to do so, that he either mispoke in his earlier assertion, or he has no example to show how I have done so.
I don’t know where you get this impression, possibly from these strung out debates over nothing. My position is nothing like this at all. I am saying both men and women’s opinions, reactions and needs for affirmation are valid. But when women use their upset feelings to trigger a fix from the man, it is a form of control and it is wrong. If a man does the same, then he is wrong too.
I see your point in this, and I think it typically not very effective problem-solving to use upset feelings as the impetus for manipulation. For any gender. I see Dr. Laura saying... "hey girls, if you really want the secret to getting what you want from your H, sex him, feed him and admire him."
Oversimplified. Doesn't work. In my opinion.
Quote: But women don’t seem to worry about men’s feelings so much. They tend to worry whether the man is happy with her, wanting her. This is an indirect concern for the man’s feelings, only as much as it relates to the women.
This I have a problem with. This is a projection from your own relationship that you are spewing onto women in general. Your wife may very well be like this; there may be plenty of women who behave like this; but I know equal numbers of men who do the same.
I think you're taking a personality type and applying it to a gender.
Quite honestly, I think you've got a problem with manipulation, disrespect and dishonesty. These are not gender specific traits.
But this is completely different than how your whole post started out to begin with... you blame feminism as the number one predicator of the often volital male/female dynamic. Dr. Laura's claim. I see that as an oversimplification of a problem that is far more complex than that... I think Paul did an excellent job of citing examples of how the male/female problems existed WAY before feminism came into being...
The rest of the stuff you've said, I'm going to let go... you've got yourself so far backed into a corner, and your foot shoved so far down your throat, I'd hate to press what I consider to be an amazingly unfair advantage. 'Cuz then you'd feel the need to fix it, and I wouldn't want that.
