Quote: I think I explained quite clearly how I believe women diminished men’s feelings and how they put the focus on their (women’s) feelings, taking advantage of the man’s natural tendency to fix, and trying to make him feel responsible for making him make her feel better. This is all a manipulative game, one perpetuated by society and an overthrow of the feminist movement (which was sorely needed at the time it coalesced into a movement).
But you haven't explained quite clearly, or I'm being slow. So, a fuller explanation would be appreciated.
I fail to see how expressing *my* feelings diminishes a man's feelings.
I can express my feelings and my spouse can express his. I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me a single example of how one person expressing their feelings somehow takes away from another person's feelings.
The only way I see this occurring is if your wife says something similar to, "I feel that your feelings are inconsequential and shouldn't be considered."
If your wife says, "I feel lonely and unloved when you spend every weekend with your hunting buddies." What feeling of yours has been diminished? How's that any different than a husband saying, "I feel disrespected when I come home and you're eating bonbons and watching soap operas." (pardon the stereotypical stances.)
You appear to be faulting women for being women and then faulting women once again for men being men.
It's a WOMAN's fault that she expresses her feelings and it's a WOMAN's fault that a man feels compelled to fix them.
So, it boils down to it's all the woman's fault?
When it comes to being logical, how f@cked is that?
Quote: Again, you miss the meaning of my comment. Sure men get into fights in bars, expecially while drunk, but among friends or even acquaintances, men do not confront each other to say their feelings are hurt. Or do they even complain to each other or their wives that someone hurt their feelings. But this is common among women. Sure there are women who are more passive and will not speak up to an impolite person, but they will sure vent about it later.
You wrote earlier: "Thank you, you’ve answered your own question for me. Men generally do not jump to get confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended. The general model for boys is to let things slide, blow it off, don’t get into a confrontation unless necessary. Girls are taught to express their feelings as soon as they are hurt. Your response was perfect!"
This just is not provable! Men jump to offense just as quickly, but perhaps instead of yakking about it they just haul off and punch the other guy, or strategize on how to get his offensive punk-a$$ fired or demoted, or tackled extra hard in the next inning. NOP was in the corporate world for 15 years, I heard him discuss what was happening. It was a constant struggle for power, position, revenge and control. Yeah, they may not have been coffee klatching about how Bruiser Smith was so mean earlier that day, but I know that Bruiser's offending indiscretion had been noted and would be dealt with in some form or fashion at a later time.
So, am I to gather that talking about being offended is somehow worse than silently taking offense and meting out some type of justice/revenge/result later?
What's running through my head right now is Di Niro in Taxi Driver posturing in front of the mirror with his gun saying: "You looking at me?"
Neither men or women are evil, or bad, or *worse* than the other. They're just different in some ways.
I wrote that the butch-up upbringing was usually instigated by dads, rather than moms and you wrote:
Quote: But this very upbringing is part of what causes women to focus on their feelings and prompt men to fix those feelings. In this way, men’s feelings are often denied because they might say something that could hurt the woman’s feelings.
But that male upbringing is not a result of feminist propaganda, nor is it the result of motherly training. But, you keep appearing to fault women specifically for men being this way.
Quote:
Quote: It takes a great deal of effort for a wounded person to be able to keep a steady look at one's partner.
Especially if you are accustomed to looking at your emotional needs first, then his.
Does this particular road run both ways in your world, Cobra? Have you considered the possibility that NOP was accustomed to looking at his emotional needs first?
Quote:
Quote: I am not saying that my perceptions at the time were truth, but they were the basis for what occurred in my marriage. As far as I could tell, my husband didn't love me. As far as I could tell, he had little interest in me beyond a few limited aspects.
See, the focus is on you…
And his focus was on him. So, what's your point?
Is your point that all/most men are selfless creatures who ignore their own needs and emotions, constantly giving to ungrateful, undeserving wives who have no concern for their husband's feelings?
Is that the foundation upon which you want to stand?
On the taking on the responsibility for a spouse's feelings - this too, is a two-way street. If I detect that NOP is disgruntled, I start trying to find out what's wrong, was it something I said or did, is there something I can do to make it better.
I see women posting on here who are working their butts off trying to be the kind of wife any husband would want to have. I see them doing as much and making as much effort as any man posting on this board.
Now either we women on this board are some sort of anomaly to your vision of men-only responsible, women-only demanding, or there is (IMHO) a definite Hate Women trend to your posts and your views.
I want to point out to you that I don't know of any woman on here that has gone on anti-men diatribes at the level that you have toward women.
And since this is so long, I want to sum up what I think my main point in all these many words is:
"You appear to be faulting women for being women and then faulting women once again for men being men.
It's a WOMAN's fault that she expresses her feelings and it's a WOMAN's fault that a man feels compelled to fix them.
Cobra, It seems to me that you have a problem with being a passive guy. What's wrong with just saying "This is who I am!" and making sure that you don't go overboard with being a doormat, and neither do you adopt a persona that is not authentic?
You seem to want to BLAME someone for the fact that you are more on the passive end of the spectrum (wife, mother) but, in reality, it has probably been with you from birth. It is your temperament, kwim? No doubt your mother and wife have contributed to you either going farther into doormat land or farther into Angry Man, but when it's all said and done, it's just who you are. Why fight that?
Why try to make it out as though all men are this way?
My H is like you, Cobra. He would not tell another man that he was offended by something they said. His brother would just look at the guy and punch his lights out. Does "passive" mean wimpy, girly? Absolutely NOT! My H is a very strong person, physically and emotionally, but he is not a dominant presence in a room full of people.
I have the more dominant personality in our marriage but I am *not* in charge. He still plays out his Man role without being mean, barking at me, picking fights. He used to do this and I did not respect him or even consider him my equal, if you want to know the truth.
I say this because it seems to me that you want someone to PAY for your temperament. You want your wife or mother to be blamed for the fact that you turned into a doormat. But don't you see that this works both ways? They have temperaments that are dominant. This would include a tendency to venture into Overbearing territory. Should YOU pay because you encourage them to be overbearing because you are passive? No way!
You want them to be responsible for what "happened" to you but you don't want to be responsible for the part you play in the dynamic.
Don't you think that real true growth can only occur when both parties see their contributions clearly and are willing to work on it?
You may reply that you have been working on just that, this whole time, but I disagree. You are pissed off and want to punish her for taking advantage of your passive nature, so now you are anything but passive. I can't imagine this feels at all authentic to you, does it?
I can express my feelings and my spouse can express his. I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me a single example of how one person expressing their feelings somehow takes away from another person's feelings.
I already have.
The only way I see this occurring is if your wife says something similar to, "I feel that your feelings are inconsequential and shouldn't be considered."
Maybe you see it this way, but I don’t. Neither it would seem do Chocolateyes, Happy Giant, Mandksdad, CeMar, Hairdog, Blackfoot (partially), and HoneyPot’s husband (I am nominating him on her behalf). Take a good look at this list and see what it has in common. These are mostly men trying to patch together their marriage (Ok, HP, your doing the work) with strong willed women who, in my opinion, generally wear the pants in the family (Blackfoot now excluded).
There is nothing wrong with this arrangement if both people are happy. But both aren’t happy. And since it is mostly men on this list, I find Schlessinger’s book particularly relevant to what we men are going through, and so would they it seems. Chocolate eyes started off the male interaction by stating:
I applaud your bravery in citing Dr. Schlessinger's book. It's come up before, and I found just CeMar and me agreeing with its main points, and she is a very controversial figure.
Why would he say such a thing if it were not for the attacks I have been receiving by some women, but most notably you.
If your wife says, "I feel lonely and unloved when you spend every weekend with your hunting buddies." What feeling of yours has been diminished?
I become affected when her feelings turn into resentment and she starts to distance, become cold, withhold sex, all as a way to “punish” me for my inconsideration of her feelings. But my premise, which is directed to the men on this board is the we (and society) are as responsible for enabling this behavior in women, and we should take sight of our own feelings.
I believe I started out my response to you saying that I did not think your or NOPkins fit this mold. He is much more self centered and focused on his own needs. I made the analogy to the “typical” CEO and how they will force things to happen by shear will of personality. I wondered it this was happening in your case.
Have you considered the possibility that NOP was accustomed to looking at his emotional needs first?
And his focus was on him. So, what's your point?
I think my comments regarding your relationship already acknowledged this. So there is no point for you. Again, my point is toward those whose relationships are the inverse of yours.
You appear to be faulting women for being women and then faulting women once again for men being men.
In this particular issue, for those relationships in which men feel the need to rescue the woman’s feelings, this is almost what I am saying. But I do not let the men off the hook. We men enable this and are guilty of perpetuating it ourselves.
It's a WOMAN's fault that she expresses her feelings and it's a WOMAN's fault that a man feels compelled to fix them.
No. Women and men need to express their feelings. But when women pout, act indignant, withhold sex as a means of forcing change in their husbands, then it is WRONG. PERIOD.
So, it boils down to it's all the woman's fault?
Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth?
This just is not provable! Men jump to offense just as quickly, but perhaps instead of yakking about it they just haul off and punch the other guy, or strategize on how to get his offensive punk-a$$ fired or demoted, or tackled extra hard in the next inning.
Now you are generalizing, using extreme examples. If you don’t see what I am talking about, then that’s your problem. Plenty others seem to understand where I am coming from, whether you believe it is provable or not.
So, am I to gather that talking about being offended is somehow worse than silently taking offense and meting out some type of justice/revenge/result later?
No, but men do not stew over these things to the extent and duration women do.
But that male upbringing is not a result of feminist propaganda, nor is it the result of motherly training.
BS. Mothers these days are much more focused on teaching their children to express themselves and talk about their feelings. It is accepted wisdom that this is a good thing, and I agree. But knowing when to blow things off and not get caught up in trying to interpret every nuance to see if someone was actually being catty is a waste of time and emotion.
Is your point that all/most men are selfless creatures who ignore their own needs and emotions, constantly giving to ungrateful, undeserving wives who have no concern for their husband's feelings?
Again, exaggeration. I did not say this. I have been clear in my position. If you can’t understand me, go read the book.
On the taking on the responsibility for a spouse's feelings - this too, is a two-way street. If I detect that NOP is disgruntled, I start trying to find out what's wrong, was it something I said or did, is there something I can do to make it better.
Again, I said you and NOPkins do not fit my scenario. But I am wondering if you don’t have some bitterness that he focuses on his feelings and needs and you don’t think he caters toward yours (or at least did not do so in the past). Is your frustration with my rocking the apple cart due to your frustration with him?
I see women posting on here who are working their butts off trying to be the kind of wife any husband would want to have. I see them doing as much and making as much effort as any man posting on this board.
And why do you think that is. Is the board a fair representation of the population? No way! Women seek out discussion groups like this, either through friends, supports groups or the internet. And I think it is easier for them to open up than it is for men. So yes, you will see a lot of women here working hard on their relationship.
The men generally think this type of thing is bogus, just a venting platform, and they are sissies for participating. They are also in denial of their feelings (because they are raised to be fixers)!
Now either we women on this board are some sort of anomaly to your vision of men-only responsible, women-only demanding, or there is (IMHO) a definite Hate Women trend to your posts and your views.
To a feminist, I would agree that I come across like that. And I believe there are a lot of feminists on this board, which explains Choc’s comments to me on bringing up this subject. If I bring out alternative points of view that are not in keeping with the feminist dogma, I am attacked. Does that make me a woman hater, or do those attacks make you a man hater?
I want to point out to you that I don't know of any woman on here that has gone on anti-men diatribes at the level that you have toward women.
I said I was not proposing these thoughts for the benefit of women. I do not believe that I have stated anything of a woman thing nature either. You are reading that through your glasses. I wonder if maybe you are the worst kind of feminist, a feminist who does not think she is a feminist. So you dismiss the complaints of men, try to “logical” them out of their views, dismiss their needs…. But then you say you that when NOPkins is upset you try to find out what is bothering him, but he does not reciprocate, instead focusing on himself (or at least he used to). I can see why you would be twisted up.
"You appear to be faulting women for being women and then faulting women once again for men being men.
It's a WOMAN's fault that she expresses her feelings and it's a WOMAN's fault that a man feels compelled to fix them.
So, it boils down to it's all the woman's fault?"
This is your read, not mine. I’ve answered all this already.
Quote: So, it boils down to it's all the woman's fault?"
This is your read, not mine. I’ve answered all this already.
How did you answer this? I'm not following your replies here.
I have to tell you, Cobra, that you do sound like you at the least dislike women as a whole, in your posts. As if you think about what women are like...and what makes us tick..and you just go, God I *hate* that!!
It's your prerogative to like and dislike what you want but I find it amusing that you are a heterosexual male who finds women so distasteful.
Look. When you first posted this thread, I was one of the first respondees saying, Yeah I agree with her premise, good one Cobra! You did not respond to this...female validation, what you CLAIM you are after..and instead kept on posting as if I was arguing with you.
This totally baffles me! If I was your wife, I'd be endlessly frustrated at living with a guy who is fcukin impossible to please. You agree with him, he argues. You disagree, he argues even louder.
As far as the diminishing feelings discussion, I see it like this. I as a person can *attempt* to take something away from MrHP..his joy, his anger, whatever.
Only HE can give that to me.
Take some responsibility for your contribution and I'll bet that your anger lets up, C.
I'm not saying that your wife, or any wife or any PERSON for that matter, isn't being a butthead for trying to tell another person what they feel but the ultimate schmuck is the one who allows their feelings to be determined by another.
I think I do accept myself as a passive person, and have done so for most of my life. Furthermore, it is what I am comfortable with and what I want to continue being. But passive people must not be doormats and there is a natural tendency for aggressive personalities to take over. If this is something I agree to then I have no problem with it. And I think most passive people don’t worry about this either. But when it feels like it is forced, or there is a persistent push by the other person, then anyone, including a passive person will feel the need to set down boundaries.
I don’t fell that I am trying to blame anyone. What my look like blame in this thread is my belief the men have the natural tendency to fix and women can take advantage of that to control a relationship. Toward this, a man needs to understand that this is a form of manipulation and a man should not feel guilty if he cannot fix the wife’s feelings, that he should not even feel obligated to fix them, and there is nothing wrong in focusing on his own feelings (like NOPkins apparently does).
The issue for me is not so much who is passive or who is more aggressive, since I am quite comfortable in letting my wife take the lead in certain things, it is more a feeling of fairness and justice. If I think things are becoming unjust because W is setting rules or orders without my consideration, then I feel he injustice. If it is something I agree to and I feel no such injustice, I have no problem in letting W be the more aggressive in carrying out OUR decision.
I think you have to differentiate between these two issue in understanding me. They are very clear and distinct in my mind. Passivity is not a hot button with me. Injustice, lack of acknowledgement, ignoring my wishes, then watching W do what she wants anyway is what upsets me. I don’t think this is different from anyone else.
Don't you think that real true growth can only occur when both parties see their contributions clearly and are willing to work on it?
My point exactly. But to truly see the contributions of each and how they are working on it means one must first strip away any false rituals built up around self centeredness, for both parties.
You may reply that you have been working on just that, this whole time, but I disagree. You are pissed off and want to punish her for taking advantage of your passive nature, so now you are anything but passive. I can't imagine this feels at all authentic to you, does it?
I can understand that you interpret things this way, but I think this is another area in which women often misunderstand men.
I answered this repeatedly. When did I ever say it is all the woman’s fault for men feeling like they must rescue and fix the woman’s feelings? I said that I agree with Schlessinger, that this has been influenced by the feminist movement. Both men and women buy into this practice. Men are enabling it yet complaining about it.
Why is it that my comments are not getting through?
Look. When you first posted this thread, I was one of the first respondees saying, Yeah I agree with her premise, good one Cobra! You did not respond to this...female validation, what you CLAIM you are after..and instead kept on posting as if I was arguing with you.
Sorry HP. Thanks for agreeing with me. I guess I was too busy dodging the other arrows coming at me.
As far as the diminishing feelings discussion, I see it like this. I as a person can *attempt* to take something away from MrHP..his joy, his anger, whatever.
How does one “attempt” to take away the sex? Either it is made available by the woman or it is not.
Take some responsibility for your contribution and I'll bet that your anger lets up, C.
Is this not exactly what I am doing? Did I not tell Chrome that he and men should not feel like they are held hostage to rescuing the woman’s feelings, than we are as responsible for perpetuating this?
I'm not saying that your wife, or any wife or any PERSON for that matter, isn't being a butthead for trying to tell another person what they feel but the ultimate schmuck is the one who allows their feelings to be determined by another.
HP, I though you were doing so good in understanding what men get so frustrated about. And it is not about men getting their feelings hurt because women are upset. Men do want to fix, but if they can’t I don’t think the men fall apart. The problem is that if they don’t fix, the women will get angry and throw their gifts out onto the front yard. Or cut off sex for week. So is the man a schmuck for feeling bad that his wife cut him off?
Quote: The problem is that if they don’t fix, the women will get angry and throw their gifts out onto the front yard.
The flowers themselves were the "fix" and that is *precisely* what I objected to. I don't want the suckup fix; I want the effort in the first place.
As far as being cutoff--what other options do you have besides solely "feeling bad"? (btw, of course a man--or a woman!--is not a schmuch for feeling bad about being cut off)
I found that setting a firm boundary re: sex took the sting out of any bad feelings I was having.
No, I have not read the book. Is that a requirement in order to discuss *your* opinions and assertions about the book with you? How many participants on SSM have read SSM? Have you?
Quote:
Quote: I can express my feelings and my spouse can express his. I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me a single example of how one person expressing their feelings somehow takes away from another person's feelings.
I already have.
I am not being a smart ass. I *cannot* see where you have shown a single example of this. Would you be kind enough to cut and paste where you showed me an example of this and place it right under this request?
Quote: I applaud your bravery in citing Dr. Schlessinger's book. It's come up before, and I found just CeMar and me agreeing with its main points, and she is a very controversial figure.
Why would he say such a thing if it were not for the attacks I have been receiving by some women, but most notably you.
Questioning your assertions, disagreeing with your assertions, giving examples that counter your assertions - these are not attacks on you. They are merely disagreements with what you seem to be propounding.
And what you have said makes no sense whatsoever. Choc references some earlier discussion about Dr. Laura (that you evidently weren't a part of) states that she is controversial and somehow that's my fault because I saide something to you this week? How are my actions with you this week, somehow responsible for Choc's saying what he did about something that occurred month's ago?
Quote:
Quote: If your wife says, "I feel lonely and unloved when you spend every weekend with your hunting buddies." What feeling of yours has been diminished?
I become affected when her feelings turn into resentment and she starts to distance, become cold, withhold sex, all as a way to “punish” me for my inconsideration of her feelings. But my premise, which is directed to the men on this board is the we (and society) are as responsible for enabling this behavior in women, and we should take sight of our own feelings.
And is it possible for women to "become affected," when hubby gets distanced, cold and withholds affection, all as a way to "punish" the wife for her inconsideration for his needs to go hunting every weekend?
And while you are *affected* by what she expresses, you are not *diminished*. Which is what the issue has been, whether or not a man is *diminished* when his spouse expresses her feelings.
Quote:
Quote: This just is not provable! Men jump to offense just as quickly, but perhaps instead of yakking about it they just haul off and punch the other guy, or strategize on how to get his offensive punk-a$$ fired or demoted, or tackled extra hard in the next inning.
Now you are generalizing, using extreme examples. If you don’t see what I am talking about, then that’s your problem. Plenty others seem to understand where I am coming from, whether you believe it is provable or not.
And what, if not generalizing, have you been doing? You think women take offense at some astronomically higher rate than do men. I disagree. I KNOW what you are talking about, I just disagree and give you examples of why I disagree. Men fight, cuss, brawl, shoot, rampage, box, fisticuff, kungfu, knife, and face off each other in statistically higher, real world numbers, ways than women, yet you want me to believe that men don't take offense - well except if they are drunk and in extreme situations (it seems you believe based on what you've written).
I have 3 brothers. I was in one physical altercation my entire life, they and their buds were punching or wrestling someone on a regular basis.
I see that you want to assert that women are more likely to express their feelings of hurt (and probably any other sort of feeling they may be having) verbally, than do men.
This seems to be something inherent to females and is therefore wrong. This seems to be wrong in your opinion because it places some unbearable onus on the man to fix.
This need for the man to fix things is inherently male and therefore something he can't help, but that's okay because he's male.
The male's response to female emotional expressions is also a result of feminist infected therapy, therefore it's still women's fault.
So, the male's inherent tendencies get a free pass, a woman's inherent tendencies don't.
Men and women have differences. Not only are there gender differences, there are personality differences.
Quote: If I bring out alternative points of view that are not in keeping with the feminist dogma, I am attacked. Does that make me a woman hater, or do those attacks make you a man hater?
Having an alternative point of view isn't an attack nor is it an indicator of hatred.
In the past on this forum, I have pointed out that I think young boys get stiffed in schools because higher levels of physical activity are discouraged in a classroom situation and drugs are passed out primarily to boys. I have posted that I think men get the short end of the stick when it comes to divorce and custody. So, I am on record on this forum of being supportive of men's issues and men in general.
I will openly apologize to any man here who has ever felt that I have bashed them for being male in any way. Or if I have attacked any male-related type behavior, I will apologize and retract. Male or female can point it out.
Now you can insist that you are just being honest and forthright and that the women who protest your assertions are just proving your point that most women are manipulative, conniving, insensitive and quick to offense, or you can examine yourself and consider that maybe what floods out of you has other, more negative aspects to it as pointed out by several women here.
As to whether or not I am a feminist, I'll let you decide. I think abortion is wrong. I think if women can't meet the physical standards required for a job that they shouldn't be given the job. I don't think existing physical standards should be lowered in order to allow women more access. I do not support the concept of alimony. I do not support the idea that women should get custody of the children. I believe that divorcing couples should be required to live within 30 minutes of each other so that both parents continue to be a part of the child's life. I do not believe in gender quotas. I do not believe that female pedophiles should get a different sentence than male pedophiles. I do not think female rapists or murderers should get a lighter sentence than do males. I think sexual harrassment works both ways and is not something only a man can do. I think abused women who kill their husbands do not have an excuse in this day and age for their actions, if it didn't occur during an altercation when her life was at risk.
