Let me backtrack a moment because it seems to me you have COMPLETELY missed the theme of this thread and my thoughts on it. Have you read Laura Schlessinger’s “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”, which is the center of this discussion. If you have not, then I suggest you do so if you want to know where I am coming from. Or go back and re-read the beginning of this thread and my beginning posts.
I think I explained quite clearly how I believe women diminished men’s feelings and how they put the focus on their (women’s) feelings, taking advantage of the man’s natural tendency to fix, and trying to make him feel responsible for making him make her feel better. This is all a manipulative game, one perpetuated by society and an overthrow of the feminist movement (which was sorely needed at the time it coalesced into a movement).
I think I have given plenty of examples of how women disregard men’s feelings and that seems to have struck a cord with many men on this board. I do not believe women are aware of men’s feelings on this. I appreciate you helping to confirm this.
But I am also aware that this does not occur in all relationships and I would guess yours is one of those. But your marriage is not typical of those on those board. NOPkins has the “larger” voice and I doubt he hesitates to use it. SO I would not expect you to be fully aware of what I am talking about.
And I must take issue with your assertion "men generally do not jump to confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended".
How high a percentage of fist fights, brawls, duels, gunfights, feuds and verbal confrontations occur from men getting offended by other men? Or do you think that such actions are a result of warm, happy friendships?
Again, you miss the meaning of my comment. Sure men get into fights in bars, expecially while drunk, but among friends or even acquaintances, men do not confront each other to say their feelings are hurt. Or do they even complain to each other or their wives that someone hurt their feelings. But this is common among women. Sure there are women who are more passive and will not speak up to an impolite person, but they will sure vent about it later.
Women who try to baby their boys are sometimes corrected for "coddling" them. When little boys are told to butch up, it's usually daddy telling them to do so, not mom. Moms are often pushing to keep Jr. OUT of sports (where coaches aren't given toward allowing boys to express any emotion beyond some whoop-ass on their opponents) while dad is usually advocating for his son's participation.
So, where does that leave your belief?
Again, another miss on your part. Of course this is how boys and girls are raised. I believe I said something along these lines earlier in this very thread. But this very upbringing is part of what causes women to focus on their feelings and prompt men to fix those feelings. In this way, men’s feelings are often denied because they might say something that could hurt the woman’s feelings. The example I gave of “Everybody Loves Raymond” is quite applicable.
I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are extrapolating your wife's interactions with you as some sort of normative for the rest of the female gender.
Yes, you are wrong. I see this matter among all women I come into contact with, and with all men I know and the women they come into contact with. I can’t understand why you don’t see this.
For every ball-busting woman I've seen acting as if her husband hasn't a clue about handling a baby, I've seen reciprocal interactions from men who don't want much to do with the baby until the baby is big enough to do something with.
You make this sound like there is something wrong with a man who prefers to interact with grown children than babies. This is not an uncommon reaction for many men, especially first time fathers. It is in part sociological and in part hard wiring in the male. Nothing wrong with that. But your judgment of this is strictly from a woman’s point of view, and since this male phenomenon is so foreign to every instinct within a woman, the male response is deemed wrong, insensitive, in need of reform. Are you not seeing that dismissal of the natural male response is a denial of his feelings?
It takes a great deal of effort for a wounded person to be able to keep a steady look at one's partner.
Especially if you are accustomed to looking at your emotional needs first, then his.
You come across as such an angry man, Cobra. I know that you have had to squelch a lot of your feelings over the years in your marriage. I am truly sorry that it has been so difficult for you. In my opinion, you make the error of venting that anger at practically every woman with whom you have discoursed here.
I call it as I see it and currently I am calling attention to the phenomenon of men taking on responsibility for their wives feelings. Recall that I started this thread in response to Chrome’s guilt that his wife was upset, and his feeling that he had to make her feel better.
If I chose to stop making love to NOP now, it would be a form of abuse. Because I would be doing it from a place of knowledge, rather than from a place of ignorance.
My point exactly. Most women are not even aware of what they are doing. Men are acutely aware of it but have been trained to keep quiet, or else! Women operate under a pseudo ignorance (I think they subconsciously know they are using their emotions to control men) of their actions and men under a code of tolerance, enabling women’s behavior. It is not uncommon for men to be talking about their wives and one comments on something he said to his wife or girlfriend that made her mad. The other will laugh at him and tell him he should never say anything like that to a woman. This is just reinforcing the code to keep women happy.
While I understand you think my actions were evil, I can't agree.
If you were consciously manipulating NOPkins, then I could say those actions were evil. But if you were doing so out of habit, trained as so many other women have been trained, then I would just say you were dysfunctional.
I am not saying that my perceptions at the time were truth, but they were the basis for what occurred in my marriage. As far as I could tell, my husband didn't love me. As far as I could tell, he had little interest in me beyond a few limited aspects.
See, the focus is on you…
If you perceived that your wife was only interested in you for your paycheck and car repair (whether or not that was true), and that nothing else about you held any interest or was worth any effort on her part - what is going to happen to your heart toward her? Perhaps you are better/stronger than I and could continue being generous, loving, tender toward your wife under similar circumstances.
What’s new about this? This is a very common state of marriage for too many men, yet we stay in the family, go to work every day, perform our chores around the house, and have to do it in a way to not make the wife upset, or we’ll have to fix her feelings too.
I was unable to handle it that well.
Of course you didn’t. See how hard it is for us men?
I don't see boundaries as force, coercion or manipulation. What I saw was my husband in pain, in kindness, yet with firm conviction tell me that he could not continue this way. I understood this *because I had felt exactly the same way*.….
What he offered was an opportunity to try to salvage our marriage. He did not force me into changing my behavior. I joined with him in an effort to make something out of our marriage that could be a blessing to both of us.
My point with the “force” argument is that you, like so many others, reached a point where one partner say this is it, no more. NOPkins reached that point. My understanding from reading your threads is that you were very reluctant to make changes, to accommodate him or to trust him. But he was ready to walk. And even after making some positive progress, you had your setbacks and needed to push forward again. Perhaps the effort was all from you, but I don’t recall that in reading NOPkins’ threads. I recall him making enormous efforts to reach a breakthrough with you. But part of that effort included a threat of divorce. Without this threat, your two could have continued your stalemate for an indefinite time longer (unless you were planning your own divorce). I believe the threat of divorce is a power play, just as so many other things, passive or aggressive, are power plays too.
