Can you give me some examples of women diminishing men's feelings?
I don't know how to read this, but it comes across to me as offensive. I can't tell if you're trying to take credit for my thought processes or if you're telling me that I've been unclear in what I posted.
Thank you, you’ve answered your own question for me. Men generally do not jump to get confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended. The general model for boys is to let things slide, blow it off, don’t get into a confrontation unless necessary. Girls are taught to express their feelings as soon as they are hurt. Your response was perfect!
As another example, have you ever watch the sitcom on TBS, “Everybody Loves Raymond.” This is another perfect example of how women hold the emotionally superior position in relationships. Raymond is forever on the edge of saying something that his wife would take offense too, since she is cast as a feminist. He is obviously very concerned about not offending his wife. In my opinion, this is a typical relationship between husband and wife today.
I don't see how your issues aren't your concern, whether or not your wife has or is capable of pointing them out. I don't depend on my spouse to apprise me of the issues/areas I need to address and work on in myself.
You assume incorrectly that I am not concerned about being the best father to my children and husband to my wife that I can be. I work on the issues that I am aware of, read up on those I am not aware of, and discuss matters here and with our counselor.
If there is something that bothers my wife that I am not aware of, she can let me know, otherwise, why should I worry about it? It is most likely an issue over something she is sensitive to because of her past or that I do because of my upbringing. With someone else, my habits may not be an issue at all. So in this way I do not worry about it and let her bring it to my attention. Otherwise, where does one draw to line in looking for self faults?
My premise is fairly basic. A dysfunctional relationship is primarily a result of 2 dysfunctional people. There are exceptions. I think it a form of scapegoating to ascribe the non-participating spouses as being the dysfunctional ones while promoting the participating spouses as being all hunky-dory psychologically.
It goes along with the premise that I impact my relationship and am a participating member in whatever dysfunctional dances we may be having.
This is your preference not mine, for reason I have just stated. AS far as I can see, my position is irresponsible only if I refuse to listen to concerns about me that my wife brings up. If you prefer to analyze yourself first, go ahead.
I didn't suffer under force, coercion, or manipulation. I don't think any of those things are ever a part of a decent marriage. And trying to use evil actions to attempt to *gain* a decent marriage is an abomination to me. The ends do not justify the means.
So say you. NOPkins asked you repeatedly to engage in the relationship, to give him sex, to acknowledge his complaints. Why did you not hear him, why did you discount what he was saying? Why did you continue for so long to undermine the marriage? Of course it wasn’t you suffering, it was him. It goes without saying your marriage then was not decent.
Did you want a decent marriage then or were you content to stay in that unhappiness? I suspect anyone will say they want a good marriage, including you. So why did you prolong such abuse toward your husband. And yes, in my opinion, it was abuse, plain and simple. Women do not see it this way since they equate abuse with yelling, or other types of common abuse. Do you really think your actions were not evil?
And are you saying that what NOPkins did to turn the relationship around was not force, coercion or manipulation? It most certainly was! He gave you an ultimatum. You had a choice in whether to accept it or not, just as you have a choice to comply with the demands of someone who is twisting your arm or not. He put a situation on you that you otherwise did not want to have, and this forced you into changing your behavior.
Do you think your wife is comfortable in your marriage?
Until recently, this was easily answered as a “no” for both of us. At this point I would say we are both very relieved and happy with our present state.
And he told me that, not in anger, not in force, not in coercion, not in manipulation. Just a simple statement that he could not continue in this way. And it wasn't a one-shot of. It was ongoing, continuous, a "this is not going to go away" sort of thing. We weren't "warring", we were "withdrawing". We've never had a screaming, angry volatile marriage.
Whoever said an ultimatum needs to be delivered at the end of a gun. What you describe is a negotiation process, but should it have failed, the end result was clear – he would get divorced. I find it hard to believe that this did not have a sobering effect on you. Would it have made any difference if he yelled and shouted, if you two were truly warring? He marked a line in the sand and said he would not back up any more than that. Maybe you don’t consider that control, but I bet when you started doing the things he wanted, he sure felt like he was back in control.
I see the major difference between us and some other marriages represented here as that we *both* acknowledged that we had problems and we *both* started working on them.
I do not see this difference at all. My wife and I have both openly and repeatedly stated we both have our own unique problems. Others on this board seem to have had a similar exchange with their spouses, to varying degrees. Furthermore, I believe everyone here is working on their relationship, and so are their spouses. The problem I see is that the work being done may not be sufficient to more BOTH parties out of their comfort zone, into uncharted territory , where a new relationship mix can form that is acceptable to both.
There were no secret agendas, no hidden methods. There was a man who was unhappy in his marriage. He expressed that unhappiness. There was a woman who was unhappy in that same marriage. She expressed that unhappiness. As often is the case, someone had to go first. NOP brought up the depth of his unhappiness. I began to address the sexual aspect of our marriage and kept expressing my unhappiness. He began to address the relational aspect of our marriage.
Unless I missed something, I believe you two went through the same dynamic everyone else has. You did not start to address his concerns until he resolved in his mind to beginning planning for divorce. The resulting detachment in him allowed him to drop the emotionality and set firm limitations on what he will accept.
Cobra, I have grave reservations about your expressions regarding force. Except perhaps in cases of dangerous mental illness or criminal actions, I cannot imagine "forcing" another human being into anything in a relationship.
Perhaps I have a much broader definition of force that you. But this attitude you have, that people show be enlightened in changing for their spouses, that so many others seem to share, does not seem to result in much success, as far as I can tell. There have been several posters who have come back to the boards after their supposed recovery fell through again. And what was the common problem? Nothing really changed from the initial problems, so the “new beginning” was false and only papered over.
I see “force” as synonymous with what occurs in counseling. The counselor lets the patient talk enough to illustrate his/her own inconsistencies, then presents the patient with those facts to effectively “force” a change in realization. They are “cornered” by the facts and their own hypocrisy. They are “forced” to change or consciously continue what they now recognize and admit to be dysfunctional behavior. In relationships, too often are defenses and threats set up as reasons for not changing behavior, opening up to intimacy, etc. When one evaluates conditions and actions of the spouse, then sets a boundary with consequences should that spouse continue with harmful behavior, then a change (of some sort) has been forced upon that spouse.
Everything we do causes a reaction in our spouse, whether we want it to or not, whether that change is visible action or unseen thought. When we change, we force the other to change, even if that means the other does not change, for to not change may mean the spouse must double their resolve, harden their will to counter this new dynamic. This is my understanding of force. It may differ from yours. And I see nothing wrong with that if used for the good of all and not in some evil way.
