It seems I’ve got you thinking about something, though I’m not sure what… Anyway I’ll try to respond to some of your statements and questions on how I see things.
I have some concern for the phrasing of "many dysfunctional people" - because it seems (and do correct me if I'm misunderstanding) to be assigning the dysfunction to *one* spouse alone. And while I wholeheartedly agree that there are marriages where one spouse alone is the primary problem, I don't think that is true for the vast majority of dysfunctional marriages.
Of course this statement is true. I don’t think anyone here believes the I don’t have my issues. And while I have to work on those, which particular problems I have is not my concern. I will let my wife tell me what she doesn’t like and I will work on those. If I were to uncover something dysfunctional about myself that didn’t bother her, why waste my time working on it. There is not true definition of functional anyway. What is functional in one relationship can become quite dysfunctional in a relationship with another person. So I don’t worry about it.
I will also acknowledge that I dislike lumping the spouses, who aren't on here participating, as the dysfunctional ones. Since I was once one of those spouses.
I think this is what really bothers you… the idea of people talking behind your back, maybe?
Speaking from my perspective, I can identify with many of you here because I was the one with the "smaller" voice in our relationship. I expressed needs and desires in the earlier years of our marriage, albeit non-sexual, that were dismissed, unrecognized, unacknowledged.
As you wrote about the results of such, Cobra, I slowly sunk into a morass of resentment, hurt and withdrawal. However, there is no measure known that would have said "I'm comfortable with this situation."
You have stated a several times that NOPkins is the dominant personality in your relationship. I recall he is also founder/owner of an electronics company. I am not aware of many successful men like this who do not have a strong ego and sense of self, a get it done attitude and force things to happen by shear strength of personality and attitude. This is the modern day CEO in the competition of today’s market. Is this description anywhere correct?
If so, then as the one with the “smaller voice,” and in light of your sinking feeling, I now get a picture that you are feeling he controls the relationship and set the conditions in a forceful, coercive way to set you marriage back on track. At the time you saw the logic in his demands and became a willing participant. But now I read between the lines to hear you have some discomfort that it may have been some sort of grand manipulation of you. Is this what you are feeling?
While words without actions are useless, I'm beginning to believe that actions without words are also useless as well. Doing a multitude of things silently hoping that your spouse will suddenly get convicted and start reciprocating, is probably an exercise in futility.
Of course, otherwise we send mixed signals, and the other spouse is looking for every excuse possible not to change and move away from their comfort zone.
At times I wonder if Nop & I are some sort of exception, rather than being more typical. Perhaps it was my remembering what it was like to feel inconsequential to my spouse that made me at least sensitive to his expressions of the same later in our marriage when he had reached his end point. Perhaps it is because he has always had the "stronger" voice in our relationship. Many of you seem to be dealing with spouses who are the more dominant personality, which probably contributes a lot to your lack of success.
This is one of the reasons I took the advice from you and NOPkins with a grain of salt. You two are an exception on this board, or at least are not comparable to my situation. What many here seem to be up against is the same as I, we are trying to push back the encroachment of our spouses’ power over our piece of the world. We need to learn that we DESERVE happiness in life and do not have to put up with being the “smaller voice.” We have to have an equal voice. We must empower ourselves, set boundaries (after learning what a boundary is) and empower ourselves. Anyone who doesn’t think this is anything other than a simple power struggle is dead wrong, in my opinion. It differs from other struggles, though, because we have love and intimacy thrown into the mix.
What I see happened in your situation is that NOPkins set an ultimatum for you, but had the sense to understand that for it to be successful, he needed to give back in return. That is when he began to listen to you and address your needs. Maybe you wonder if he would have listened to you if he did not need to, if you would have complied with his ultimatum without terms of your own? But is this question really necessary? You would have become resentful over and returned to your previous warring state. Then he would have to listen to you or move on to divorce.
What you would have learned (I think) is that he is not as powerful as you think and that some of his ultimatums may actually have been bluffs. But even he does not know that. Yes, he may have completed the divorce, but that may have forced him to come to terms with himself too, to face his codependence needs. All powerful CEO types and other leaders are ultimately slaves to the people. They need someone to lead in order to feel their power. So you would eventually get back to where you two are now, except it would have been the longer, more dangerous, and possibly unsuccessful path.
I think NOPkins put the two of you on the right path, and that he did the best for the RELATIONSHIP, which may not be the same as doing the best for him or for you.
I see myself doing the same thing in my marriage. What is best for me or my wife individually could be unsustainable for the marriage as a whole. We each need to learn sacrifice for the other, that we give up part of who we were to become part of a new union. And once in that union, if it is truly blissful and where we both decide we want to be, does it really matter whether we happily entered this state or was dragged into it kicking and screaming?
If someone feels they were coerced, pressured, manipulated or what ever to finally become happy in a relationship, should they really be upset with their spouse for forcing them there? Is the spouse the “bad” person for doing this, or is the reluctant spouse “bad” because his/her dysfunction so large that s/he cannot see the paradise that is right in front is his/her face?
And this argument is another thing when it concerns childless couples, like Blackfoot. In his case, it can be argued that taking such manipulative actions may be a dangerous sign, and the woman’s right to make were own decision, right or wrong, is paramount. It is difficult to say whether each individual is more important than the relationship or not.
But when children are involved, this logic gets turned on its head. This is why I cannot follow the all philosophy of Blackfoot. Blackfoot’s methods are based on mutual respect for each other and recognition that the instinctual drives of men and women will ultimately prevail to reassert mutual attraction. With the high stakes of children, I do not think this is true. Parents see the worst of outcomes when divorce looms and go into survival mode. Natural attraction is too weak to counteract his overwhelming emotions.
With kids, saving the marriage is primary (I believe), much more important than the wishes of either spouse, since innocent lives are now at stake. Timing is also important. Family crisis must be resolved as quickly as possible. Doing nothing is very dangerous because of the damage that builds up through time. So I believe that the methods NOPkins used are proper, commendable and should be repeated for any marriage (though I am not sure how old your kids were at the time). Once the marriage is reestablished, then Blackfoot’s methods can be useful, but only because the other more powerful fear emotions have been put to sleep.
In the end, are you not happier where you are now than where you were before? Does it matter if he was the one to push you to where you are, and that you are only now coming to realize this? Should you not take some of the blame for not coming up with your own plan to force him to your ideal state? And just how different would your final version be from his? I think they would be identical. So what does it matter?
I thin what you are talking about is a matter of respect and ego, which can be quite different from love and intimacy issues, but that is another topic. I will try to get to you other two posts later.
Quote: It seems I’ve got you thinking about something, though I’m not sure what…
I don't know how to read this, but it comes across to me as offensive. I can't tell if you're trying to take credit for my thought processes or if you're telling me that I've been unclear in what I posted.
Quote: Of course this statement is true. I don’t think anyone here believes the I don’t have my issues. And while I have to work on those, which particular problems I have is not my concern. I will let my wife tell me what she doesn’t like and I will work on those. If I were to uncover something dysfunctional about myself that didn’t bother her, why waste my time working on it. There is not true definition of functional anyway. What is functional in one relationship can become quite dysfunctional in a relationship with another person. So I don’t worry about it.
I don't see how your issues aren't your concern, whether or not your wife has or is capable of pointing them out. I don't depend on my spouse to apprise me of the issues/areas I need to address and work on in myself.
What if one of your issues was in regards to parenting, are you going to wait until your children are adults to point out that this might have been something you wanted to work on before you screwed them up?
That attitude strikes me as a very passive, irresponsible approach to one's own life and personal growth.
Quote: I will also acknowledge that I dislike lumping the spouses, who aren't on here participating, as the dysfunctional ones. Since I was once one of those spouses.
I think this is what really bothers you… the idea of people talking behind your back, maybe?
Uh, no. If I, as a spouse am not posting here, how would I know that something was being said behind my back? How could I get bent about something of which I have no knowledge?
My premise is fairly basic. A dysfunctional relationship is primarily a result of 2 dysfunctional people. There are exceptions. I think it a form of scapegoating to ascribe the non-participating spouses as being the dysfunctional ones while promoting the participating spouses as being all hunky-dory psychologically.
It goes along with the premise that I impact my relationship and am a participating member in whatever dysfunctional dances we may be having.
Quote: If so, then as the one with the “smaller voice,” and in light of your sinking feeling, I now get a picture that you are feeling he controls the relationship and set the conditions in a forceful, coercive way to set you marriage back on track. At the time you saw the logic in his demands and became a willing participant. But now I read between the lines to hear you have some discomfort that it may have been some sort of grand manipulation of you. Is this what you are feeling?
No. The phrase was "sunk" as in past tense. Not "sinking" as in current tense.
I didn't suffer under force, coercion, or manipulation. I don't think any of those things are ever a part of a decent marriage. And trying to use evil actions to attempt to *gain* a decent marriage is an abomination to me. The ends do not justify the means.
Quote:
Of course, otherwise we send mixed signals, and the other spouse is looking for every excuse possible not to change and move away from their comfort zone.
Do you think your wife is comfortable in your marriage?
Quote: Anyone who doesn’t think this is anything other than a simple power struggle is dead wrong, in my opinion. It differs from other struggles, though, because we have love and intimacy thrown into the mix.
I obviously didn't think that NOP was all that powerful - it was clear that he wasn't getting what he wanted out of our relationship. And didn't for years. So, in that way we were/are no different from the rest of the folks here. The difference, in my perception, is that at some point he decided that he couldn't continue in this way. And he told me that, not in anger, not in force, not in coercion, not in manipulation. Just a simple statement that he could not continue in this way. And it wasn't a one-shot of. It was ongoing, continuous, a "this is not going to go away" sort of thing. We weren't "warring", we were "withdrawing". We've never had a screaming, angry volatile marriage.
I think you need to be careful not to justify whatever actions you may be inclined to take in order to get the marriage you want for everyone's "good".
I see the major difference between us and some other marriages represented here as that we *both* acknowledged that we had problems and we *both* started working on them. Not always successfully and not always easily.
Quote: In the end, are you not happier where you are now than where you were before? Does it matter if he was the one to push you to where you are, and that you are only now coming to realize this? Should you not take some of the blame for not coming up with your own plan to force him to your ideal state? And just how different would your final version be from his? I think they would be identical. So what does it matter?
I don't know where you get some of this. I wasn't pushed, forced or manipulated. You seem to have deduced some sort of "method" used which might not have been admirable, but hey! it all worked out in the end. This is not at all what occurred.
There were no secret agendas, no hidden methods. There was a man who was unhappy in his marriage. He expressed that unhappiness. There was a woman who was unhappy in that same marriage. She expressed that unhappiness. As often is the case, someone had to go first. NOP brought up the depth of his unhappiness. I began to address the sexual aspect of our marriage and kept expressing my unhappiness. He began to address the relational aspect of our marriage.
Quote: In the end, are you not happier where you are now than where you were before? Does it matter if he was the one to push you to where you are, and that you are only now coming to realize this? Should you not take some of the blame for not coming up with your own plan to force him to your ideal state?
Cobra, I have grave reservations about your expressions regarding force. Except perhaps in cases of dangerous mental illness or criminal actions, I cannot imagine "forcing" another human being into anything in a relationship.
Quote: Can you give the author of the book? Think I might read that one, though I swore I was DUN with books....
You can never be DUN with books!
The author is Helene G. Brenner. The full title is "I know I'm in There Somewhere: A Woman's Guide to Finding Her Inner Voice and Living a Life of Authenticity."
The inner exercises (called innercizes) in the book can get a little bit far out there for me, but there's good stuff in it.
great. so then when my W says No to sex --Ill just take it anyways then. thats pretty manly dont you thing? Comeon Corri its called a dynamic for a reason.
<Major eye roll>
Oh, PUH-LEEZE. Right. A man 'just taking sex' after a woman has said no is manly. Uh-huh. You are not on your game, so I will let you off the hook for this obvious, thoughtLESS comment. Tsk, tsk. Unlike you...
It takes way more to BE DA MAN than waiting to be fed, sexed and admired. That's MPT's point (mine as well). If that's all a man needs... ewh. YUCK. How boring is that?
Can you give me some examples of women diminishing men's feelings?
I don't know how to read this, but it comes across to me as offensive. I can't tell if you're trying to take credit for my thought processes or if you're telling me that I've been unclear in what I posted.
Thank you, you’ve answered your own question for me. Men generally do not jump to get confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended. The general model for boys is to let things slide, blow it off, don’t get into a confrontation unless necessary. Girls are taught to express their feelings as soon as they are hurt. Your response was perfect!
As another example, have you ever watch the sitcom on TBS, “Everybody Loves Raymond.” This is another perfect example of how women hold the emotionally superior position in relationships. Raymond is forever on the edge of saying something that his wife would take offense too, since she is cast as a feminist. He is obviously very concerned about not offending his wife. In my opinion, this is a typical relationship between husband and wife today.
I don't see how your issues aren't your concern, whether or not your wife has or is capable of pointing them out. I don't depend on my spouse to apprise me of the issues/areas I need to address and work on in myself.
You assume incorrectly that I am not concerned about being the best father to my children and husband to my wife that I can be. I work on the issues that I am aware of, read up on those I am not aware of, and discuss matters here and with our counselor.
If there is something that bothers my wife that I am not aware of, she can let me know, otherwise, why should I worry about it? It is most likely an issue over something she is sensitive to because of her past or that I do because of my upbringing. With someone else, my habits may not be an issue at all. So in this way I do not worry about it and let her bring it to my attention. Otherwise, where does one draw to line in looking for self faults?
My premise is fairly basic. A dysfunctional relationship is primarily a result of 2 dysfunctional people. There are exceptions. I think it a form of scapegoating to ascribe the non-participating spouses as being the dysfunctional ones while promoting the participating spouses as being all hunky-dory psychologically.
It goes along with the premise that I impact my relationship and am a participating member in whatever dysfunctional dances we may be having.
This is your preference not mine, for reason I have just stated. AS far as I can see, my position is irresponsible only if I refuse to listen to concerns about me that my wife brings up. If you prefer to analyze yourself first, go ahead.
I didn't suffer under force, coercion, or manipulation. I don't think any of those things are ever a part of a decent marriage. And trying to use evil actions to attempt to *gain* a decent marriage is an abomination to me. The ends do not justify the means.
So say you. NOPkins asked you repeatedly to engage in the relationship, to give him sex, to acknowledge his complaints. Why did you not hear him, why did you discount what he was saying? Why did you continue for so long to undermine the marriage? Of course it wasn’t you suffering, it was him. It goes without saying your marriage then was not decent.
Did you want a decent marriage then or were you content to stay in that unhappiness? I suspect anyone will say they want a good marriage, including you. So why did you prolong such abuse toward your husband. And yes, in my opinion, it was abuse, plain and simple. Women do not see it this way since they equate abuse with yelling, or other types of common abuse. Do you really think your actions were not evil?
And are you saying that what NOPkins did to turn the relationship around was not force, coercion or manipulation? It most certainly was! He gave you an ultimatum. You had a choice in whether to accept it or not, just as you have a choice to comply with the demands of someone who is twisting your arm or not. He put a situation on you that you otherwise did not want to have, and this forced you into changing your behavior.
Do you think your wife is comfortable in your marriage?
Until recently, this was easily answered as a “no” for both of us. At this point I would say we are both very relieved and happy with our present state.
And he told me that, not in anger, not in force, not in coercion, not in manipulation. Just a simple statement that he could not continue in this way. And it wasn't a one-shot of. It was ongoing, continuous, a "this is not going to go away" sort of thing. We weren't "warring", we were "withdrawing". We've never had a screaming, angry volatile marriage.
Whoever said an ultimatum needs to be delivered at the end of a gun. What you describe is a negotiation process, but should it have failed, the end result was clear – he would get divorced. I find it hard to believe that this did not have a sobering effect on you. Would it have made any difference if he yelled and shouted, if you two were truly warring? He marked a line in the sand and said he would not back up any more than that. Maybe you don’t consider that control, but I bet when you started doing the things he wanted, he sure felt like he was back in control.
I see the major difference between us and some other marriages represented here as that we *both* acknowledged that we had problems and we *both* started working on them.
I do not see this difference at all. My wife and I have both openly and repeatedly stated we both have our own unique problems. Others on this board seem to have had a similar exchange with their spouses, to varying degrees. Furthermore, I believe everyone here is working on their relationship, and so are their spouses. The problem I see is that the work being done may not be sufficient to more BOTH parties out of their comfort zone, into uncharted territory , where a new relationship mix can form that is acceptable to both.
There were no secret agendas, no hidden methods. There was a man who was unhappy in his marriage. He expressed that unhappiness. There was a woman who was unhappy in that same marriage. She expressed that unhappiness. As often is the case, someone had to go first. NOP brought up the depth of his unhappiness. I began to address the sexual aspect of our marriage and kept expressing my unhappiness. He began to address the relational aspect of our marriage.
Unless I missed something, I believe you two went through the same dynamic everyone else has. You did not start to address his concerns until he resolved in his mind to beginning planning for divorce. The resulting detachment in him allowed him to drop the emotionality and set firm limitations on what he will accept.
Cobra, I have grave reservations about your expressions regarding force. Except perhaps in cases of dangerous mental illness or criminal actions, I cannot imagine "forcing" another human being into anything in a relationship.
Perhaps I have a much broader definition of force that you. But this attitude you have, that people show be enlightened in changing for their spouses, that so many others seem to share, does not seem to result in much success, as far as I can tell. There have been several posters who have come back to the boards after their supposed recovery fell through again. And what was the common problem? Nothing really changed from the initial problems, so the “new beginning” was false and only papered over.
I see “force” as synonymous with what occurs in counseling. The counselor lets the patient talk enough to illustrate his/her own inconsistencies, then presents the patient with those facts to effectively “force” a change in realization. They are “cornered” by the facts and their own hypocrisy. They are “forced” to change or consciously continue what they now recognize and admit to be dysfunctional behavior. In relationships, too often are defenses and threats set up as reasons for not changing behavior, opening up to intimacy, etc. When one evaluates conditions and actions of the spouse, then sets a boundary with consequences should that spouse continue with harmful behavior, then a change (of some sort) has been forced upon that spouse.
Everything we do causes a reaction in our spouse, whether we want it to or not, whether that change is visible action or unseen thought. When we change, we force the other to change, even if that means the other does not change, for to not change may mean the spouse must double their resolve, harden their will to counter this new dynamic. This is my understanding of force. It may differ from yours. And I see nothing wrong with that if used for the good of all and not in some evil way.
I intend to reply to your question, but to properly do so, I think I need to post an update to my sitch. I think you will understand that the reason for my apparent trying to “logical” my wife has changed from what it was before (at least as I see it). The change is a result of a new, improved state in our relationship and a new frame of mind in my wife (at least I think it is new).
Quote: Can you give me some examples of women diminishing men's feelings?
I don't know how to read this, but it comes across to me as offensive. I can't tell if you're trying to take credit for my thought processes or if you're telling me that I've been unclear in what I posted. __________________________________________________________ Thank you, you’ve answered your own question for me. Men generally do not jump to get confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended. The general model for boys is to let things slide, blow it off, don’t get into a confrontation unless necessary. Girls are taught to express their feelings as soon as they are hurt. Your response was perfect!
So, how does my telling you how I read your statement and asking you to clarify if I had misread it equal "diminishing your feelings"?
And I must take issue with your assertion "men generally do not jump to confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended".
How high a percentage of fist fights, brawls, duels, gunfights, feuds and verbal confrontations occur from men getting offended by other men? Or do you think that such actions are a result of warm, happy friendships?
I don't disagree that our culture has tended to rear boys to butch up while accepting more emotional responses from girls, but how does that equate to women diminishing men's feelings?
Women who try to baby their boys are sometimes corrected for "coddling" them. When little boys are told to butch up, it's usually daddy telling them to do so, not mom. Moms are often pushing to keep Jr. OUT of sports (where coaches aren't given toward allowing boys to express any emotion beyond some whoop-ass on their opponents) while dad is usually advocating for his son's participation.
So, where does that leave your belief?
And again I ask, "how do women diminish men's feelings"?
I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are extrapolating your wife's interactions with you as some sort of normative for the rest of the female gender. For every ball-busting woman I've seen acting as if her husband hasn't a clue about handling a baby, I've seen reciprocal interactions from men who don't want much to do with the baby until the baby is big enough to do something with.
I'm sorry that you've had the misfortune of having the two most important women in your life having little to no regard for you as a person. But no matter how much you want to squash the rest of the female gender into that nasty little package, there are a great many of us out here that just don't fit it.
Your assertions remind me of women who think that all men are raping, abusive arseholes, just because their daddy or husband were.
Quote: I didn't suffer under force, coercion, or manipulation. I don't think any of those things are ever a part of a decent marriage. And trying to use evil actions to attempt to *gain* a decent marriage is an abomination to me. The ends do not justify the means.
So say you. NOPkins asked you repeatedly to engage in the relationship, to give him sex, to acknowledge his complaints. Why did you not hear him, why did you discount what he was saying? Why did you continue for so long to undermine the marriage? Of course it wasn’t you suffering, it was him. It goes without saying your marriage then was not decent.
Cobra, I had also repeatedly asked NOP to engage in our relationship, to acknowledge my complaints, needs, whatever you want to call them. He heard me about as well as I heard him.
Why did it go on as long as it did? Because the two of us are imperfect people, with a very imperfect upbringing. Neither of us had examples of what a good marriage was. Both of us brought some pretty large issues and shortcomings into the relationship. Given time, we had both managed to heap even more negative things into the relationship in addition to those we brought with us initially. And like most people do in a painful situation, we both were painfully aware of our own wounds and much less aware of the others. And as most people do, we thought each of our hurt was the greater and that each of our contributions was greater.
It takes a great deal of effort for a wounded person to be able to keep a steady look at one's partner.
Quote:
Did you want a decent marriage then or were you content to stay in that unhappiness? I suspect anyone will say they want a good marriage, including you. So why did you prolong such abuse toward your husband. And yes, in my opinion, it was abuse, plain and simple. Women do not see it this way since they equate abuse with yelling, or other types of common abuse. Do you really think your actions were not evil?
Of course I longed for a good marriage. I would assume that I was no more content to stay in my misery as you are in yours. I, probably as have you, stayed primarily because of moral constraints against divorce, because of our child and because as broken as it might be, I loved him.
You come across as such an angry man, Cobra. I know that you have had to squelch a lot of your feelings over the years in your marriage. I am truly sorry that it has been so difficult for you. In my opinion, you make the error of venting that anger at practically every woman with whom you have discoursed here.
If I chose to stop making love to NOP now, it would be a form of abuse.
Because I would be doing it from a place of knowledge, rather than from a place of ignorance.
While I understand you think my actions were evil, I can't agree. I am not saying that my perceptions at the time were truth, but they were the basis for what occurred in my marriage. As far as I could tell, my husband didn't love me. As far as I could tell, he had little interest in me beyond a few limited aspects. If you perceived that your wife was only interested in you for your paycheck and car repair (whether or not that was true), and that nothing else about you held any interest or was worth any effort on her part - what is going to happen to your heart toward her? Perhaps you are better/stronger than I and could continue being generous, loving, tender toward your wife under similar circumstances.
I was unable to handle it that well.
Quote:
And are you saying that what NOPkins did to turn the relationship around was not force, coercion or manipulation? It most certainly was! He gave you an ultimatum. You had a choice in whether to accept it or not, just as you have a choice to comply with the demands of someone who is twisting your arm or not. He put a situation on you that you otherwise did not want to have, and this forced you into changing your behavior.
I don't see boundaries as force, coercion or manipulation. What I saw was my husband in pain, in kindness, yet with firm conviction tell me that he could not continue this way. I understood this *because I had felt exactly the same way*. We were both already in a situation that neither or us wanted to have. Your wife may want the status quo to continue, I did not. The conflict was a result of several years of unresolved issues that had never been adequately addressed by either of us. We had both withdrawn. According to Harley of Marriage Builders, couples have to move from withdrawal THROUGH CONFLICT in order to get to intimacy.
What he offered was an opportunity to try to salvage our marriage. He did not force me into changing my behavior. I joined with him in an effort to make something out of our marriage that could be a blessing to both of us.
Let me backtrack a moment because it seems to me you have COMPLETELY missed the theme of this thread and my thoughts on it. Have you read Laura Schlessinger’s “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”, which is the center of this discussion. If you have not, then I suggest you do so if you want to know where I am coming from. Or go back and re-read the beginning of this thread and my beginning posts.
I think I explained quite clearly how I believe women diminished men’s feelings and how they put the focus on their (women’s) feelings, taking advantage of the man’s natural tendency to fix, and trying to make him feel responsible for making him make her feel better. This is all a manipulative game, one perpetuated by society and an overthrow of the feminist movement (which was sorely needed at the time it coalesced into a movement).
I think I have given plenty of examples of how women disregard men’s feelings and that seems to have struck a cord with many men on this board. I do not believe women are aware of men’s feelings on this. I appreciate you helping to confirm this.
But I am also aware that this does not occur in all relationships and I would guess yours is one of those. But your marriage is not typical of those on those board. NOPkins has the “larger” voice and I doubt he hesitates to use it. SO I would not expect you to be fully aware of what I am talking about.
And I must take issue with your assertion "men generally do not jump to confront each other so quickly if they feel they have been offended".
How high a percentage of fist fights, brawls, duels, gunfights, feuds and verbal confrontations occur from men getting offended by other men? Or do you think that such actions are a result of warm, happy friendships?
Again, you miss the meaning of my comment. Sure men get into fights in bars, expecially while drunk, but among friends or even acquaintances, men do not confront each other to say their feelings are hurt. Or do they even complain to each other or their wives that someone hurt their feelings. But this is common among women. Sure there are women who are more passive and will not speak up to an impolite person, but they will sure vent about it later.
Women who try to baby their boys are sometimes corrected for "coddling" them. When little boys are told to butch up, it's usually daddy telling them to do so, not mom. Moms are often pushing to keep Jr. OUT of sports (where coaches aren't given toward allowing boys to express any emotion beyond some whoop-ass on their opponents) while dad is usually advocating for his son's participation.
So, where does that leave your belief?
Again, another miss on your part. Of course this is how boys and girls are raised. I believe I said something along these lines earlier in this very thread. But this very upbringing is part of what causes women to focus on their feelings and prompt men to fix those feelings. In this way, men’s feelings are often denied because they might say something that could hurt the woman’s feelings. The example I gave of “Everybody Loves Raymond” is quite applicable.
I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are extrapolating your wife's interactions with you as some sort of normative for the rest of the female gender.
Yes, you are wrong. I see this matter among all women I come into contact with, and with all men I know and the women they come into contact with. I can’t understand why you don’t see this.
For every ball-busting woman I've seen acting as if her husband hasn't a clue about handling a baby, I've seen reciprocal interactions from men who don't want much to do with the baby until the baby is big enough to do something with.
You make this sound like there is something wrong with a man who prefers to interact with grown children than babies. This is not an uncommon reaction for many men, especially first time fathers. It is in part sociological and in part hard wiring in the male. Nothing wrong with that. But your judgment of this is strictly from a woman’s point of view, and since this male phenomenon is so foreign to every instinct within a woman, the male response is deemed wrong, insensitive, in need of reform. Are you not seeing that dismissal of the natural male response is a denial of his feelings?
It takes a great deal of effort for a wounded person to be able to keep a steady look at one's partner.
Especially if you are accustomed to looking at your emotional needs first, then his.
You come across as such an angry man, Cobra. I know that you have had to squelch a lot of your feelings over the years in your marriage. I am truly sorry that it has been so difficult for you. In my opinion, you make the error of venting that anger at practically every woman with whom you have discoursed here.
I call it as I see it and currently I am calling attention to the phenomenon of men taking on responsibility for their wives feelings. Recall that I started this thread in response to Chrome’s guilt that his wife was upset, and his feeling that he had to make her feel better.
If I chose to stop making love to NOP now, it would be a form of abuse. Because I would be doing it from a place of knowledge, rather than from a place of ignorance.
My point exactly. Most women are not even aware of what they are doing. Men are acutely aware of it but have been trained to keep quiet, or else! Women operate under a pseudo ignorance (I think they subconsciously know they are using their emotions to control men) of their actions and men under a code of tolerance, enabling women’s behavior. It is not uncommon for men to be talking about their wives and one comments on something he said to his wife or girlfriend that made her mad. The other will laugh at him and tell him he should never say anything like that to a woman. This is just reinforcing the code to keep women happy.
While I understand you think my actions were evil, I can't agree.
If you were consciously manipulating NOPkins, then I could say those actions were evil. But if you were doing so out of habit, trained as so many other women have been trained, then I would just say you were dysfunctional.
I am not saying that my perceptions at the time were truth, but they were the basis for what occurred in my marriage. As far as I could tell, my husband didn't love me. As far as I could tell, he had little interest in me beyond a few limited aspects.
See, the focus is on you…
If you perceived that your wife was only interested in you for your paycheck and car repair (whether or not that was true), and that nothing else about you held any interest or was worth any effort on her part - what is going to happen to your heart toward her? Perhaps you are better/stronger than I and could continue being generous, loving, tender toward your wife under similar circumstances.
What’s new about this? This is a very common state of marriage for too many men, yet we stay in the family, go to work every day, perform our chores around the house, and have to do it in a way to not make the wife upset, or we’ll have to fix her feelings too.
I was unable to handle it that well.
Of course you didn’t. See how hard it is for us men?
I don't see boundaries as force, coercion or manipulation. What I saw was my husband in pain, in kindness, yet with firm conviction tell me that he could not continue this way. I understood this *because I had felt exactly the same way*.….
What he offered was an opportunity to try to salvage our marriage. He did not force me into changing my behavior. I joined with him in an effort to make something out of our marriage that could be a blessing to both of us.
My point with the “force” argument is that you, like so many others, reached a point where one partner say this is it, no more. NOPkins reached that point. My understanding from reading your threads is that you were very reluctant to make changes, to accommodate him or to trust him. But he was ready to walk. And even after making some positive progress, you had your setbacks and needed to push forward again. Perhaps the effort was all from you, but I don’t recall that in reading NOPkins’ threads. I recall him making enormous efforts to reach a breakthrough with you. But part of that effort included a threat of divorce. Without this threat, your two could have continued your stalemate for an indefinite time longer (unless you were planning your own divorce). I believe the threat of divorce is a power play, just as so many other things, passive or aggressive, are power plays too.
