It seems I’ve got you thinking about something, though I’m not sure what… Anyway I’ll try to respond to some of your statements and questions on how I see things.
I have some concern for the phrasing of "many dysfunctional people" - because it seems (and do correct me if I'm misunderstanding) to be assigning the dysfunction to *one* spouse alone. And while I wholeheartedly agree that there are marriages where one spouse alone is the primary problem, I don't think that is true for the vast majority of dysfunctional marriages.
Of course this statement is true. I don’t think anyone here believes the I don’t have my issues. And while I have to work on those, which particular problems I have is not my concern. I will let my wife tell me what she doesn’t like and I will work on those. If I were to uncover something dysfunctional about myself that didn’t bother her, why waste my time working on it. There is not true definition of functional anyway. What is functional in one relationship can become quite dysfunctional in a relationship with another person. So I don’t worry about it.
I will also acknowledge that I dislike lumping the spouses, who aren't on here participating, as the dysfunctional ones. Since I was once one of those spouses.
I think this is what really bothers you… the idea of people talking behind your back, maybe?
Speaking from my perspective, I can identify with many of you here because I was the one with the "smaller" voice in our relationship. I expressed needs and desires in the earlier years of our marriage, albeit non-sexual, that were dismissed, unrecognized, unacknowledged.
As you wrote about the results of such, Cobra, I slowly sunk into a morass of resentment, hurt and withdrawal. However, there is no measure known that would have said "I'm comfortable with this situation."
You have stated a several times that NOPkins is the dominant personality in your relationship. I recall he is also founder/owner of an electronics company. I am not aware of many successful men like this who do not have a strong ego and sense of self, a get it done attitude and force things to happen by shear strength of personality and attitude. This is the modern day CEO in the competition of today’s market. Is this description anywhere correct?
If so, then as the one with the “smaller voice,” and in light of your sinking feeling, I now get a picture that you are feeling he controls the relationship and set the conditions in a forceful, coercive way to set you marriage back on track. At the time you saw the logic in his demands and became a willing participant. But now I read between the lines to hear you have some discomfort that it may have been some sort of grand manipulation of you. Is this what you are feeling?
While words without actions are useless, I'm beginning to believe that actions without words are also useless as well. Doing a multitude of things silently hoping that your spouse will suddenly get convicted and start reciprocating, is probably an exercise in futility.
Of course, otherwise we send mixed signals, and the other spouse is looking for every excuse possible not to change and move away from their comfort zone.
At times I wonder if Nop & I are some sort of exception, rather than being more typical. Perhaps it was my remembering what it was like to feel inconsequential to my spouse that made me at least sensitive to his expressions of the same later in our marriage when he had reached his end point. Perhaps it is because he has always had the "stronger" voice in our relationship. Many of you seem to be dealing with spouses who are the more dominant personality, which probably contributes a lot to your lack of success.
This is one of the reasons I took the advice from you and NOPkins with a grain of salt. You two are an exception on this board, or at least are not comparable to my situation. What many here seem to be up against is the same as I, we are trying to push back the encroachment of our spouses’ power over our piece of the world. We need to learn that we DESERVE happiness in life and do not have to put up with being the “smaller voice.” We have to have an equal voice. We must empower ourselves, set boundaries (after learning what a boundary is) and empower ourselves. Anyone who doesn’t think this is anything other than a simple power struggle is dead wrong, in my opinion. It differs from other struggles, though, because we have love and intimacy thrown into the mix.
What I see happened in your situation is that NOPkins set an ultimatum for you, but had the sense to understand that for it to be successful, he needed to give back in return. That is when he began to listen to you and address your needs. Maybe you wonder if he would have listened to you if he did not need to, if you would have complied with his ultimatum without terms of your own? But is this question really necessary? You would have become resentful over and returned to your previous warring state. Then he would have to listen to you or move on to divorce.
What you would have learned (I think) is that he is not as powerful as you think and that some of his ultimatums may actually have been bluffs. But even he does not know that. Yes, he may have completed the divorce, but that may have forced him to come to terms with himself too, to face his codependence needs. All powerful CEO types and other leaders are ultimately slaves to the people. They need someone to lead in order to feel their power. So you would eventually get back to where you two are now, except it would have been the longer, more dangerous, and possibly unsuccessful path.
I think NOPkins put the two of you on the right path, and that he did the best for the RELATIONSHIP, which may not be the same as doing the best for him or for you.
I see myself doing the same thing in my marriage. What is best for me or my wife individually could be unsustainable for the marriage as a whole. We each need to learn sacrifice for the other, that we give up part of who we were to become part of a new union. And once in that union, if it is truly blissful and where we both decide we want to be, does it really matter whether we happily entered this state or was dragged into it kicking and screaming?
If someone feels they were coerced, pressured, manipulated or what ever to finally become happy in a relationship, should they really be upset with their spouse for forcing them there? Is the spouse the “bad” person for doing this, or is the reluctant spouse “bad” because his/her dysfunction so large that s/he cannot see the paradise that is right in front is his/her face?
And this argument is another thing when it concerns childless couples, like Blackfoot. In his case, it can be argued that taking such manipulative actions may be a dangerous sign, and the woman’s right to make were own decision, right or wrong, is paramount. It is difficult to say whether each individual is more important than the relationship or not.
But when children are involved, this logic gets turned on its head. This is why I cannot follow the all philosophy of Blackfoot. Blackfoot’s methods are based on mutual respect for each other and recognition that the instinctual drives of men and women will ultimately prevail to reassert mutual attraction. With the high stakes of children, I do not think this is true. Parents see the worst of outcomes when divorce looms and go into survival mode. Natural attraction is too weak to counteract his overwhelming emotions.
With kids, saving the marriage is primary (I believe), much more important than the wishes of either spouse, since innocent lives are now at stake. Timing is also important. Family crisis must be resolved as quickly as possible. Doing nothing is very dangerous because of the damage that builds up through time. So I believe that the methods NOPkins used are proper, commendable and should be repeated for any marriage (though I am not sure how old your kids were at the time). Once the marriage is reestablished, then Blackfoot’s methods can be useful, but only because the other more powerful fear emotions have been put to sleep.
In the end, are you not happier where you are now than where you were before? Does it matter if he was the one to push you to where you are, and that you are only now coming to realize this? Should you not take some of the blame for not coming up with your own plan to force him to your ideal state? And just how different would your final version be from his? I think they would be identical. So what does it matter?
I thin what you are talking about is a matter of respect and ego, which can be quite different from love and intimacy issues, but that is another topic. I will try to get to you other two posts later.
