Quote: So I believe many dysfunctional people in relationships will not change until they have to. And this is the caveat to Schlessinger’s book. While people should do the right thing, what will make them do so if they don’t have the self discipline to do so themselves? You cannot force someone to do something, but you don’t have to tolerate their inaction either.
I have some concern for the phrasing of "many dysfunctional people" - because it seems (and do correct me if I'm misunderstanding) to be assigning the dysfunction to *one* spouse alone. And while I wholeheartedly agree that there are marriages where one spouse alone is the primary problem, I don't think that is true for the vast majority of dysfunctional marriages.
And even in the cases where one spouse is the highly dysfunctional one, I would think there would be quite some dysfunction in the other spouse to have ignored the issues, been blind to those issues, or to been drawn to the dysfunctional one.
I will also acknowledge that I dislike lumping the spouses, who aren't on here participating, as the dysfunctional ones. Since I was once one of those spouses.
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This is the clear message I got from NOPkins – push things off center to destabilize the current situation that is comfortable to the dysfunctional spouse. The risk is that they may not like it and will leave. The flip-side of that risk is by not doing anything, you will become resentful and eventually leave. In either case, the marriage is doomed.
Speaking from my perspective, I can identify with many of you here because I was the one with the "smaller" voice in our relationship. I expressed needs and desires in the earlier years of our marriage, albeit non-sexual, that were dismissed, unrecognized, unacknowledged.
I also rocked between "Am I being selfish & demanding? Insensitive to him? I should try harder to be less demanding and more understanding!" and "is this not a part of marriage, relationship? Can he not see how deeply this is hurting me?"
Just as many of you do here.
I pushed as hard as I felt I could while holding back in order to not become completely destructive. I was like many of you here in that I did not want to totally destroy my marriage because of my "needs". I prayed, wept, read relationship books, & studied the Bible. And finally distilled those years of efforts into "am I willing to sacrifice my marriage for these needs/desires?" My answer was no.
As you wrote about the results of such, Cobra, I slowly sunk into a morass of resentment, hurt and withdrawal. However, there is no measure known that would have said "I'm comfortable with this situation."
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But once you can accept this truth and prepare for the worst (detaching), fear of this outcome then shifts to the spouse and they must do something to find a new state of equilibrium. Boundaries are meant to prevent the move back to the previous dysfunctional equilibrium. I do not think that just doing everything right is enough to push a dysfunctional equilibrium off balance. Sometimes I think drastic measures are needed to make this push. That usually comes in the form of the “bomb” or serving of divorce papers. GEL dropped her form of the bomb the other day. I ended up doing so too.
And while one spouse wants to change this equilibrium, the other does not want to because the current state works in his/her favor.
I totally agree with you that an attempt at "doing everything right is enough" will ever break through to success.
While words without actions are useless, I'm beginning to believe that actions without words are also useless as well. Doing a multitude of things silently hoping that your spouse will suddenly get convicted and start reciprocating, is probably an exercise in futility.
Telling your spouse that you are desperately unhappy, that these are the things that are important issues to you, that you are open to dealing with whatever issues they have with you, that you will do what it takes to make the relationship better for them, and here are the things they can do to make it better for you - I think this is a foundational requirement.
At times I wonder if Nop & I are some sort of exception, rather than being more typical. Perhaps it was my remembering what it was like to feel inconsequential to my spouse that made me at least sensitive to his expressions of the same later in our marriage when he had reached his end point. Perhaps it is because he has always had the "stronger" voice in our relationship. Many of you seem to be dealing with spouses who are the more dominant personality, which probably contributes a lot to your lack of success.
When NOP began the final campaign to reach some marital change or go for divorce, during the interminable discussions/arguments, he couldn't seem to hear that I had issues too. I know some of you are married to people who don't express what they might be unhappy about (if they are unhappy at all). I do wonder if some of your spouses have expressed it and you just haven't been in a place where you could hear it. I believe NOP saw my "but what about these things" as a defensive attempt to completely avoid his issues with me.
And I'm sure there was some defensiveness in my responses, but they also contained my truth, the facts as I understood them. As he continued to push for some resolution, I initially responded to him sexually in a sporadic, half-hearted, unhappy, disconnected way.
I think some of you have gone through the same thing sexually, but cut the cord totally or withdrew because you found it too uncomfortable. If NOP had done so, I guess we would be divorced now.
Perhaps, for some of us, that is part of the process. The working through it poorly, but working through it.
You can't expect that sex is suddenly going to be a connected, marvelous, wonderful thing - your relationship isn't at a place to provide that. Sex is going to be like your current relationship. Prickly, dysfunctional, disconnected, sulled up, withdrawn, unpleasant.
You can't pull the plug on it when it's all of the above. It's like becoming a long distance runner after having been a chip eating, cig smoking, beer swilling couch potato for years - those first few teetering steps are going to be painful, ungraceful, unfulfilling.
You can either quit because it's too difficult - or
you can keep working at it and realize you will never be a marathon runner - or
you'll discover that you can work up to a quality that you never thought you could have.
Quote: I do not usually sense this same obligation in women. Rather I feel women tend to diminish men’s feelings because they don’t think men don’t really know what they are feeling anyway, right? So not only do women ignore men’s feelings, but they convince themselves that men don’t feel and if they do feel, they are feeling the wrong thing and need to be taught otherwise. That “otherwise” becomes the woman’s perspective of emotional content. Men have their own perspective. That is all I am saying. And it doesn’t mean he loves you any less.
Can you give me some examples of women diminishing men's feelings? Not being testy, this just doesn't ring true in my life and relationships. (Also, I must point out that I do believe that there has been a forced feminization on boys as a result of institional schooling.) But I don't see this as a "don't think men really know what they are feeling" as much as it is a institutional tendency to reward traditional girlish behavior and to punish traditional boyish behavior.
In fact, my experience has been that women's emotions have been discounted, negativized. Assertive women are labled bitches, assertive men are labled authoritative. Emotional women are labled hysterical, or their feelings are shunted aside as being the result of PMS.
And in regards to the assertions that women make men responsible for their feelings - I think that this is more of a gender-equal issue. I know from reading what you've posted about your marriage, that I don't get the impression that your wife is pushing for you to be responsible for her feelings as much as she is being very insensitive to yours. I do acknowledge the limitations of info expressed of forums, and therefore acknowledge that my impression could be totally off-base.
Some of the ones the stood out to me in regards to your sitch:
* Belief that, unless everything is "just right'' for another person, then that person can never fully be happy in life.
* Drive to feel "needed'' or "wanted'' which leads you to become overly involved and overresponsible in your relationships with persons, places, and things.
* Result of a pattern of getting approval and recognition from others for "helping'' in the past with the belief that this is the only way you can have meaning in life.
* Become guilt ridden if people, places, or things which you are trying "to fix'' don't get "fixed'' and instead get worse.
* Might tie your identity into the "fixer'' role and never be able to enjoy a truly healthy give and receive relationship with anyone.
Interesting to me is that the site asserts that fixing is a form of controlling. Don't know that I agree.
Quote: Interesting to me is that the site asserts that fixing is a form of controlling. Don't know that I agree.
I without a doubt see many forms of 'fixing' as a form of controlling behavior. Not all, but many, yes.
For example. Many times Spouse A will say there is problem x, y, z. Spouse B agrees. Spouse B begins to make changes in order to address the problems Spouse A says exists. Spouse B looks for approval in changes made, credit for effort, etc. Spouse A says, nope, it's not enough, or you didn't do it right, or you changed, but not in a way that is meaningful to me... so Spouse B begins to 'fix' again.
In these types of scenarios, this is not problem solving mode, this is hoop jumping mode. Spouse B is always 'fixing' in order to placate Spouse A. It becomes an addictive form of behavior, for Spouse B is always leaving it up to Spouse A to determine the quality of effort made.
Fixers get to be victims, for they are always measuring their worth and their efforts based upon Spouse A's assessment.
Fixers, in my mind, have great intent, but their good intentions get lost in their need/want to be accepted and praised by their spouse. This is without a doubt, very controlling and manipulative. I'll be the first one to admit that I have been guilty of this myself... and it is a dam hard thing to change.
Fixers need to learn to be negotiators, to first learn what they themselves want out of an R, what a successful R looks like, and determine FOR THEMSELVES the quality of their own efforts.
Quote: I without a doubt see many forms of 'fixing' as a form of controlling behavior. Not all, but many, yes.
I agree with this. I think there are at least two categories of fixers. Those that are inner-directed - "I will do this and that and the other thing and make the relationship better." And the outer directed. "You need to do this and that and the other and it will make you all better." Roughly, anyway.
I'm re-reading a book, I Know I'm in There Somewhere" and the author discusses Inner and Outer voices.
In regards to Internalized Outer Voices she writes, " ...those voices in your head that tell you you are seriously defective and desperately in need of improvement."
Outer voices become that litany of things that someone else is expecting of you, to the point that you may lose a sense of yourself as you tapdance to please others.
One section is titled "Returning to Yourself" and says:
"Whe you find yourself going over and over in your mind, "What does he feel? What is he thinking? you are indeed out on someone else. Your attention is outside of your body, no longer paying attention to what's true for you."
I think many of us have allowed our spouse's voices to become the authoritative voice in our head. Or worse, our interpretation of what we think their voice would be saying becomes our guiding light.
Quote: why are you still reading books intended with a female audience? and why are you still trying to logical females?
Cobra I stand by this-- but would like to add something else.
Schlessinger also claims that most counselors these days are very feminist as well. The conventional wisdom is to make men acknowledge, feel and express their emotions in the same way women do, .... But I think not acknowledging the man’s needs, his way of feeling and thinking, his way of communicating, is an immature and selfish position for the wife. It is also abusive to the husband.
completely agreed.
This book is important for me because it made me realize that I have nothing to apologize for as far as being a man Im over here-- standing and applauding again. however it is, that you came to the realizations that abuse(ignoring the needs) of husbands is not exceptable, and the many facets that abuse can entail, that your needs are valid and your manly desires and attributions are PERFECTLY normal -- Well GoshDarn. Im happy for you. high five and manly smack on the ass.
Many of the thoughts I have tried to convey here about strength, saying NO, not overly worrying about her emotional reactions, taking care of your own(mens) needs first-- is actively stopping this ABUSE. Letting someone abuse you is being a victim. Victims are created through their own INNER voice, lack of self worth/esteem and expressed via body language. Consider the advice given to women on how to appear from their walk, look, behaivior, eye contact in order to avoid muggings. This is an extreme example but it still applies. Victims also externalize.
Part of fixing ourself <which is all we can really do> is to not allow disrespect. Not allowing disrespect however is not the same as trying to fix/change another. That can border on returned disrespect. Women need to feel respected in a LTR for the emotional connection neccessary that keeps up her attraction.
Little girls have more a propensity to express themselves than boys, and parents encourage this. Efforts are made to address the hurts that girls feel. When this gets out of hand, you have the “princess” syndrome where girls feel they are entitled have their hurts soothed. As adults, if the man does not do so, the woman starts her manipulative games. Chome’s wife is doing this very thing – withdrawing, shutting down, making HIM feel guilty. My wife does the same thing too
True. It does begin early. However your W (and Chromos) wife DO NOT make you feel guilty. That is your feeling. OWN it just as you want her to own her feelings. When you feel guilty, you have a choice. examin the feeling. is it reasonable, logical? IF yes. acknowledge it and then DROP it and move on. Do not revisit it or let her continue to hold it over your head, once it had been acknowledged and corrected.
IF no, then dont feel it. that is your choice and you are allowing her to manipulate you. Ignore it and let her deal with her emotions or if it is extreme, Tell her to knock it off. That is a TEST of strength. Women know(subconciously) when they are being unreasonable. If they didnt you wouldnt see the supplicating reaction as demonstrated by Chromos W when he steadfastly, not chasing or supplicating her, via there last interaction. Playing into it, the entitlement of hurts being soothed, only causes your own disrespect. These are emotional reactions that if you cant control,(the guilt) then neither can you expect her too (the disrespect-->loss of attraction chain).
This does not mean many of their feelings are invalid, but many of them ARE self centered. All feelings are self centered. emotions are for our preservation. they are also addictive. You as the logical, not as emotionally controlled male, head of the house, are in charge of keeping this balance. Lucky you.
So I believe many dysfunctional people in relationships will not change until they have to. Well seeing as Im not currently in a R all people in R's are dyfunctional. Seriously as Mrs. NOPs is pointing out to takes two dysfunctions. Obviously something caused you to want to change. Most likly the overwhelming drive of our testosterone based needs. There is something called the pleasure pain principal. Humans do not change untill the pain of the status quo overcomes the pleasure of the it. Pleasure and Pain are our two biological motivators. Which means you were part of the dysfunction. Gonna get harshly blunt her for a second. Its cause I like you though.
Much of the way you word your posts is external---her, she needs to, she doesnt understand. etc. I know the guilt and family values, not having contention, is largely coming from your FOO with the father figure and and Japanese heritage. Much of it is subservience, quiteness, very tacit and subtle maniulation. Hard stuff to overcome and change --Yes? Well you W issues come from her FOO to of being used to very overbearing men, much drama (lots of emotional outbursts, high need for the chemical kicks, but its not as serious or permanent like in your FOO) turmoil, probably large family and lots of OP in each other business. Very hard stuff for her to overcome and change also.
Sounds like the drama... from a few days ago has garnered some respect? awareness of your needs to her. Its what she recognizes as strong man. you took a step towards her need in communication style and she returned it. See what I am saying?
So why shouldn’t men stand up for equal treatment? I think they should. Not just equal treatment though. You should be treated like a man. Act like one. Treat her like a woman, invariable they act like one. Its great, I love it. Truthfully, so do they.
that women have been very successful in training us men to watch our words out of concern for their feelings.
I shudder at the thought of giving women that kind of control over me, personally. How about--Many men have very unsuccesfully allowed themselves to be placed in the unattractive (for men) role of supplicating and placating. Wanting and needing WOA is perfectly normal and does have a profound affect on us, when it comes from our W. Deprecating self in order to subtly beg for them is shooting yourself in the foot. Much more effective to self congratulate --with humor, and have her agree. If women find self assured, even cocky men attractive why not do what works? take control over your self worth and value away from her. She doenst want it. Never did, never will. Give it back to yourself where it was before you were married and she found you attractive.
Quote: My take on this kind of book "Men simple. Women meet needs and have no problems" is that it doesn't really make me very interested in men. be a lesbian then. I get bored. need DRAMA Huh? I understand. Thats cool. I think well what is the point? the point of filling another persons needs? Corri likes you--- so you cant be that daft. Why would I WANT to have such a person in my life? a man? Fortunately, I'm lucky. I married a man who wants so much more thats great-- he "wants" more. I believe we are talking about basic needs here though. Different want vs need. Ill let you look up the definitions though. and that keeps me interested in him AND in wanting him sexually. Lucky You.
So Cobra, (and probably Cemar too) if you ARE as Dr. Laura describes then I wouldn't be that interested in having you in my life good thing. You are married you know. and I wouldn't be that sexually attracted to you are you always a bitch? Im going to go out on a thick limb here and take a really wild swinging guess. (Im tarzan so I feel pretty safe engaging in these risky behaviors) Your a HDW and he is a LDH.....
And you are completely misreading her, I think. MPT is saying, I believe... what you are espousing in your previous thread. "If you're the man, BE DA MAN!" That's what she respects. If she has to be the man for you... what's the friggin' point?
Now... I'll shut up, 'cuz if MPT comes back, she's gonna whomp up on your azz all on her own...
great. so then when my W says No to sex --Ill just take it anyways then. thats pretty manly dont you thing? Comeon Corri its called a dynamic for a reason.
As for misreading MPT. <sniff> we will see. I have had my heart stomped on by a woman -my fault. No woman alive however, can whup my ass. If one ever does Ill have her tested for a y- chromosome. I wont play my hand out to you though.
Lucky you. 
There is something called the pleasure pain principal. Humans do not change untill the pain of the status quo overcomes the pleasure of the it. Pleasure and Pain are our two biological motivators. Which means you were part of the dysfunction. 
the point of filling another persons needs? Corri likes you--- so you cant be that daft. Why would I WANT to have such a person in my life? 
Im going to go out on a thick limb here and take a really wild swinging guess. (Im tarzan so I feel pretty safe engaging in these risky behaviors) Your a HDW and he is a LDH.....