Re Cobra I can understand the situation of LD women who are trying address their marriage problems but I cannot understand those who do not, like OG_Lou’s W.
Cobra and all. Some of BB’s problems are nothing I or she can not make many changes. Those problems are aging (vaginal wall thinning), her former breast cancer treatment (radiation and Tamoxifen see (http://www.breastcancer.org/tre_sys_tamox_idx.html) for how it works), hysterectomy=no ovaries and she can’t take any hormones due to the former breast cancer, it was hormone dependent. So I understand those issues.
Some can be worked around successfully, some just have to be worked with as best as she and I can. I am not giving BB a free pass and saying she can never be much of a sexual person. I know there is still some sexiness within her mind and body somewhere and at some times. Sometimes I think BB really likes to be sexual with me, other times, well it is a poor/bad experience for one or both of us.
Yes she could do a lot more!
To see things from a Woman’s POV, read these web sites [url=http://www.breastcancer.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php]breastcancer.org[/url] especially the “Moving Beyond Cancer” forum, and Sexual Health Groups & Boards at [url= http://www.hisandherhealth.com/cgi-bin/ubb_newshe/ultimatebb.cgi ]hisandherhealth.com[/url] is about half way down the page, or use this address Click on Red Hot Mamas is at [url=http://www.hisandherhealth.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/forum/11.html]Red Hot Mamas[/url]
So I believe many dysfunctional people in relationships will not change until they have to. I agree cobra. I think it is like this for many people but not all couples.
Back to the book. I wished it was that easy but realize the whole dynamics of any relationship can not be boiled down to what Schlessinger seems to indicate. Like Cobra said, some or significant movement in the direction of Schlessinger’s book would make many guys much happier.
As for women taking the book literally, all/most of the time, I don’t have hope that that will happen very often and maybe if they did, it would not be good for the R long term. Someone would feel taken advantage of and the other person might start to feel entitled.
I think her book is good to the point, that some women need to consider her somewhat over simplified, over “men are still cave men” like attitude ideas and women should think about them (the book’s concepts) when interacting with her man. I think some of Schlessinger’s ideas have things in common with BlackFoot’s ideas, that people are wired biologically to tend to act certain ways and respond to certain traits/actions of a mate.
Lou, I personally think you really see your situation as a glass half empty, while trying to justify to yourself that you see it half full. Half full does not work very well. It means I have been short changed and that comes across as me being/feeling needy. I try, though unsuccessful at times, to think I might be perceived as someone with hope and attract positive outcomes to situations.
Having a strong personality is not a crime. Nor is it an unfortunate result of feminism. Strong women have been around since the beginning of time.
I have the ability to use my strong personality to do harm or to inject vitality into the lives of those around me. I won't be so grandiose to say that I *exclusively* use it for good, but it is rare these days that I use it in a negative way.
I never said there was anything wrong with having a strong personality. But it is something the man must deal with, whether good or bad. Your opinion of how you use your personality is just that – your opinion. Men may not have the same opinion. Period.
See, I didn't think I was coming across hatefully. I was going for a "set the record straight" type tone and a "drawing a boundary at name calling" tone, but I was not going on the attack.
See, we differ in what you think you said and what I think I heard. Same as how you received my comments. Neither is right or wrong, but my opinion counts as much as yours. And your husband will think so too. If he is unwilling to change how he hears you, then try changing YOUR delivery. If not, then there will be problems.
…. I no longer have any interest in fighting, just for the fight's sake.
Does he feel this way about you too? You mentioned some things he did in the past that you seem to still hold against him. Why would he be any more capable of letting go of his fears of your willingness to fight?
Now......if he called me a spoiled princess, which is so unrepresentative of my life, I would probably first bust out laughing (out of sheer surprise, not that sarcastic cutting laugh) and then incredulously ask him what he's basing that on.
If he called you this, he probably had a GOOD reason for saying so, EVEN IF HE JUST WANTED TO BE MEAN. Of all the things he could say out of anger, why would he pick this particular statement (I know this is hypothetical)? Only because in his eyes it has an element of truth to it. Pay attention to these one off remarks. The are not inconsequential. They are more valuable than when he is trying to be straight with you. They are the male’s version of code talk.
And, if you were to respond as you say you do, then you are dismissing his reality, denying that he has any validity to his feelings or perceptions, and perpetuating the myth that only women truly understand feelings and emotions. This is a real sore spot with me because my wife used to do it ALL THE TIME. It really pissed me off. I later came to realize it is nothing more than a control tactic on her part. You might think about this.
You have to understand that the level of perfection he wants in his home is unattainable. His father was the same way and he spent most of his childhood keeping everything perfect as a way to please his dad. "It was the only way to make him happy and keep him from criticizing me", he said.
This confirms my suspicion that he comes from a very controlling family, just as I do (at least my mother) and so he reacts to you in a similar way that I react to my wife. It sounds like his issues are with his dad, so maybe he does not see the connection with you. But a strong controlling personality is all it takes to trigger his hot buttons, whether it comes from a man or a woman. I think this is a major, if not THE major, source of his problems.
I can identify areas in his FOO where this originated from, but how does this knowledge help him change? Even if he could precisely pinpoint where it came from, in what way does it help him eliminate it?
I think you know the answer to this as well as I do. That you can see his issues so clearly means nothing. He is blind to them, just as you are blind to what he sees so clearly in you. This is what counseling is all about. If he does not know why he is reacting as he does, how can he come to accept this as a fault within him? And until he accepts this, why should he work on change, for what is there to change? This is what stepping out of the denial of your FOO is all about.
The behavioral exercises that Chrome is doing are for after this recognition is made. Once you accept there are things that need to change, how do you make the change?
Not entirely. The source of my disappointment is his own promises that he makes and then does not keep.
Just EXACTLY what does he truly mean when he makes a promise and just EXACTLY what do you expect? This may need to be taken down to the basic level of defining the meaning of particular words.
It could also be that he made a promise he never meant to keep, but felt compelled to do so anyway, in order to keep the peace. This is a passive aggressive tactic that you would expect to find in someone who spent his life trying to please a domineering, controlling father. It is a promise made out of fear. I know you don’t want him to fear you, and he probably is in HEAVY denial that he does. He probably is in denial of his fear of his father and his suppressed anger too.
Quote: And this is where feminism comes in. If the man is raise to minimize his feelings and feels responsibly for keeping his wife happy, or at least trying to fix her unhappiness, then he takes on an additional load. And even if he knows that he is not responsible for the feelings of others, he cannot help but be brought down by a wife complaining that her feelings are hurt. He instinctively wants to make her feel better, even if he knows he can’t. This inability diminishes his feeling of control over his world. Yet he is a man and men control their domain, they are the king of their castle, or at least other men are, just not him.
What do I think? I think this is EXACTLY how I feel. After 18 years of thinking about my unhappiness (and I'm a pretty introspective guy, too), I think you've hit how I feel square on the head.
That is just me, however (why do I suddenly feel the need for that disclaimer?)
Cobra, again, I'm going to disagree. I went back and re-read my post to you and while the tone was pretty inyerface, it was still respectful. Your post wasn't.
That's what I objected to.
Quote: Why would he be any more capable of letting go of his fears of your willingness to fight?
Oooh good one! I'm sure, now you you mention it, that he still fears this. Although I will say that I have conquered my urge to battle with much more success than he has conquered his urge to nitpick about the house. Is it because I'm such a fabulous person? Hardly. It's because we have 3 little kids and, therefore, more reasons for him to become upset.
Quote: If he called you this, he probably had a GOOD reason for saying so, EVEN IF HE JUST WANTED TO BE MEAN.
I agree. Although he's the type to say something out of meanness and then backpedal like a madman, trying to convince me that there's no truth to it, even when I know differently! Getting him to talk to me about his grievances with me is freakin impossible. And it's NOT due to my anger, Cobra, he is just like that as a person. My anger did not make it easier for him, but he'd have done that whether or not it was present. It's who he is.
Quote: And, if you were to respond as you say you do, then you are dismissing his reality,
Well, you took my words out of context. I spefically said that if he called me a princess I'd laugh out of surprise, but if he called me virtually anthing else, I'd be pissed off to have been called a name no doubt, but I'd want to know more about why he said that. And I'd be calm.
Quote: He is blind to them, just as you are blind to what he sees so clearly in you.
Actually, he's not. He may not be as well versed as you, but he's quite aware of the damage that was done in his FOO. In fact, if you look back through my threads from last year, he did a lot of soul searching and would spontaneously bring up FOO issues and how he plays some of that out in our own marriage. But he seems to be currently stuck at a "I can't do that" point. FOO related or just being stubborn? I don't know.
Quote: Once you accept there are things that need to change, how do you make the change?
YES, that's what I wanna know!
Quote: Just EXACTLY what does he truly mean when he makes a promise and just EXACTLY what do you expect?
I've learned the hard way, through this R journey, that being specific is crucial. When he makes a promise, I am sure to gently get to the heart of the matter--what does he mean, how often will it happen, etc. You know, Cobra, my H just feels overwhelmed by his life. He works, he has 3 kids, he has a wife who wants romance/sex. Then there's his relationship with God. It's all too much!, he thinks. I am sympathetic to him and, at the same time, I'm my own person who needs what I need.
Quote: It could also be that he made a promise he never meant to keep, but felt compelled to do so anyway, in order to keep the peace.
He did this in the beginning, I think. Nowadays he's more upfront with what he feels he can deliver. He has no problem with telling me, I can't do that, but I'm not sure that he puts any thought into what he CAN give.
Thank you for your thoughts, it's really helping me decompress.
Quote: I was thinking about this topic last night...
The only question I have with Dr. Laura's book is this: She claims that if a wife will feed, sex, respect a husband he will suddenly want to move mountains and "Go slay the dragons" for his wife. She will see an immediate improvement in her man as she works to pay more attention to him.
But in my case, I am not getting the food, the sex, the respect, yet I still move mountains and slay the dragons, simply because I love my wife. I do not agree with everything my wife does and the way I am treated, but I still love the woman and work my butt off for her. If my wife suddenly started doing what Dr. Laura suggests, would I be happy? Heck Yeah! I'd love that! But what would I then start doing for her that I am not already doing now? I can't think of anything. I am already doing everything I can...
So does that mean I should start doing less for my wife so she will be encouraged to take up Dr. Laura's philosphy and pay more attention to me? I don't know...
HappyGiant,
I have noodled this as well. I'm not sure I have all of the exact answers, but I'm PRETTY sure that:
1) If you DON'T (stop going above-and-beyond like that), our wives WON'T change, because they really have no incentive to;
2) I think the key is to DO continue to do the things that represent your CORE VALUES (treat her with love and respect, be a good dad to your children, help with a BASIC fair distribution of household chores, etc.), but
3) DON'T over-reward behavior that is not meeting your needs, especially after you've stated them as being so important to you.
Now, where one DRAWS THOSE LINES AND ENFORCES THOSE BOUNDARIES, on a daily basis in their home and in their marital R, I've made a pretty good career of NOT knowing. But I do think therein lies The Answer.
I think you are right when you say your wife has no incentive to change. She is in the optimal position for her right now. You do everything you should, avoid making her mad, put up with no sex, allow her to control the household – wants not to like? Why would she in her right mind want to change that? And whose fault is this? It is yours.
You sound very codependent to me, and obviously have some type of abandonment fears that make you hang on to this abusive (yes, abusive!) relationship. Overcoming this is your karmic lesson. I had (and still have) to overcome this same lesson.
Maybe your counselor can give you more insights since it sounds like he is on the right path (and probably isn’t telling you all he is thinking), but I think your wife is full of bluff. Does she act intimidating and abusive to other people, to her family or co-workers? If not, then she is able to control her emotions, and lets out at you on purpose. This is verbal abuse, plain and simple. It is meant for control and to keep you dancing on eggshells.
I may be out of line for stating all this, but that is the impression I get. Schlessinger’s book is of no consequence to your situation. I think you need to read up on self esteem and establishing boundaries.
Lou,
I have long felt for your situation and your frustration, but I have also been somewhat frustrated by your actions, so I am just going to tell you what I see. I may be way off base, but here it is.
I have always felt that you have the ability to get what you want in your relationship, at least as far as BB is able to deliver, but each time you take a step in that direction, you step back. When you do take a stand, BB changes. Then you back off your position and she goes back to old behaviors. Like Happy’s wife, why would BB want to change this? She is in her comfort zone. She gets what she wants and doesn’t have to do what she doesn’t want to do.
I think BB knows you are a moral person and that you strive to do “the right thing.” I feel that she takes advantage of this because it is the easy path for her. But you let her do this to you repeatedly. She seems to have a very good read on you. She steps up to the plate and gives you just enough to keep you around, but no more than she has to. I think she is very cunning and premeditated in what she does. I do not think you give her enough credit here.
If this is so, then she is much more responsible for how she treats you than you seem willing to admit. I say this because you are so quick to defend and justify her actions, yet you complain about how much she withholds. Let me ask you point blank: Do you truly feel that you DESERVE to have her wait on you, to serve you, to sacrifice for you and your pleasure only? If you do not think you deserve this, then why should she do so?
This is about self esteem. From what you have said on this board, I can easily see how it comes from your past. I get the impression that you are resentful of spendthrifts. But are you really resentful of those who spend money to enjoy life, or are you subconsciously resentful of the fact that you could not enjoy these luxuries in your childhood?
Does this resentment translate into a feeling of “moral superiority” (I don’t mean to be harsh about this term, its all I can think of) through frugality as a way of denying this hurt and anger? And if so, does this double back to affect your self esteem, thinking that you do not deserve to have pleasures in life or to have someone “serving” you? And if it is true that your self esteem is therefore too low, then are you not the one who is truly keeping BB distant?
You have it backwards. Dr. Larua's book is intended only for LD women that are trying to change themselves and at the same time they are motivating their men to change into better husbands. What Dr. Laura is doing is cutting right to the chase. Lets compare this to the advice we get on here and from many other books about the LD female HD male problem that many of us have:
Step 1: Man should GAL, Make himself more confident, essentially MAKE HIMSELF MORE APPEALING. Step 2: Woman then must make effort to rediscover her sexuality.
What Dr. Laura is saying is that the only way this works is to start with step 2, and then step one will result.
Why? Because of several things, but mostly because men are simple, women are complex. Men are EASY to motivate because of testosterone. We are ADDICTED to it, we will do anything to satisfy our urges. There is nothing comparable to this in females. Think about this, when I try to motivate my wife, it's like I am trying to light a fire with a heating blanket. But if she trys to motivate me, she just has to make a sexual suggestion and I am turned into a 1200 degree blow torch (she does not even have to touch me)! So in terms of who can motivate whom, it is not even a contest, women have 90% of the power to create change.
But you will also notice in her writings that men have asked her when she was going to write the book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Women". Her response, "Why? That process does not work!" She is right. See steps one and two above, success is not found in step 1, it is ONLY found after step 2. Step one is only there to try and help motivate the women to take step 2. Until they complete step 2, us guys are just spinning our wheels.
It sucks to be a man that whats to "FIX" things. We see the problem, we want to fix it, and this time, we can not. We must wait until our wives address the problem. It sucks to feel so powerless.
After 18 years of thinking about my unhappiness (and I'm a pretty introspective guy, too), I think you've hit how I feel square on the head. 
But I do think therein lies The Answer.